Christ's human nature...

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

If we have to hide behind SOP statements, to me, that proves we haven't really studied it out from the Bible, but have taken some statements from the SOP and then not backed them up.

That is so, so wrong.

It deeply concerns me when Gods people cannot share their position on a biblical authority alone.

If we say that we need "Ellen White" because she shed more light on the Bible, we are in effect saying the Bible is insufficient.

As a Seventh-day Adventist discussing Christ and His nature with other Seventh-day Adventists, I don't have anything to apologize for in using the Spirit of prophecy. If I were not among SDAs, of course I would support everything by the Bible alone, but I'm among SDAs. That makes a difference-- or at least it should.

It isn't a matter of "hiding behind Ellen White," but of knowing that she is God's prophet and that God inspired her. To use Ellen White doesn't mean I haven't studied the Bible. That is an argument I hear all the time from people who oppose Ellen White every time Ellen White is quoted saying something they dislike or disagree with. (I'm not saying you oppose Ellen White-- I know you support her-- but I am just saying that it is the same argument and an untrue one.)

Ellen White's prophetic gift is like a magnifying glass on the Bible. She was raised up by God as His mouthpiece because people weren't stuying the Bible and applying it the way they should have, and also because she wrote the messages in modern English so that the people would be without excuse if they didn't understand and apply them to their lives.

Yes, I agree with you that the Bible is completely sufficient for all fundamenal truths necessary for salvation and for knowing God's will for our lives. Yet that isn't contradicted by the belief that Ellen White shed a great deal of light on the Bible's teachings.

And I have no issue with this.

But when I am looking into a biblical truth, anyone that is going to gain any credence in my view, has to show their position from the scripture.

Which is exactly what Ellen White counselled us to do, did she not?

The problem with this discussion, is that already people are arguing that "Ellen White agrees with me.".

No.

Ellen White agrees with the Bible.

So we have to ask each other this question:

What does the bible say brother/sister?

[Twilight]

For those who are not interested in hearing what Ellen White or Jones and Waggoner have written, there is the "original thoughts" forum they can go to.

sky

And who has said they are not interested in what these have to say?

Not I.

I want the scriptural truth on the matter.

When I have that, I will consider their perspective.

------------

And you have to be careful you are not twisting my viewpoint to such a degree, that you think it gives you grounds for rejecting my request and implying I should leave the discussion.

[John317]

Mark, have you heard of or read the book, The Word Was Made Flesh? It's a compilation by Ralph Larson and it quotes everything Ellen White ever wrote on the topic we're discussing. Not only does it contain the statements of Ellen White but also all the important statements by SDAs from 1852 to 1952. Of course, it also contains all of the Bible verses dealing with the human nature of Christ. It's a wonderful book but I'm not sure who makes it available today since pastor Larson died a number of years ago.

[pnattmbtc]

Which Adam? BEFORE or AFTER THE FALL? From a moral standpoint Christ was the Second Adam BEFORE the fall. BODILY-WISE, He was the second Adam AFTER the fall....

Conceived of the HS, He CANNOT have EXACTLY the same kind of body or at least mind as the fallen children of A & E Very much like us yet NOT quite like us.

So when you said, "BODILY-WISE, He was the second Adam AFTER the fall." you meant "very much like" us, in reference to His body, but NOT quite like us.

This correctly represents your view?

So BODILY-WISE, He was the second Adam AFTER the fall, mostly, but not completely.

[pnattmbtc]

I don't know if you have noticed, but when you do a search for a quote on the disc, you may be given several references to the same quote which may not be worded exactly the same.

[pnattmbtc]

d:Being born with no inherent propensities gives one no advantages in a sin filled world.It probably makes it more difficult.

p:Why would this make sense? I don't know what you mean by "inherent propensities," but whatever you mean by it, I can't imagine that not having them would make things harder.

d:Sorry,pnatt,I guess I left out the "towards sin" part of my post.Imagine yourself(like myself)having an intense dislike for onions and being required to eat them or starve to death. Kinda simple,I know, but ask yourself if it was more difficult for Christ to resist the sinful urges within Himself, or to willingly subject Himself to that which was antagonistic to His nature,finally becoming completely sin filled.

Surely having a sinless nature would be an advantage to overcoming sin. How could it not be?

[Twilight]

Mark, have you heard of or read the book, The Word Was Made Flesh? It's a compilation by Ralph Larson and it quotes everything Ellen White ever wrote on the topic we're discussing. Not only does it contain the statements of Ellen White but also all the important statements by SDAs from 1852 to 1952. Of course, it also contains all of the Bible verses dealing with the human nature of Christ. It's a wonderful book but I'm not sure who makes it available today since pastor Larson died a number of years ago.

No, I had not heard of that book before John317.

It does sound interesting, but book budget is very low at the moment!

But I am hoping this discussion will bring out some light on the subject...

[pnattmbtc]

But at the moment, all people have done, is quoted one statement or another and voiced their understanding and yet not one cohesive argument from the bible has been put forward.

Here's a cohesive argument, from the Bible:

"Christ Jesus,...being in the form of God,...emptied Himself, and took upon Him the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men." Philippians 2:5-7, R.V. He was made in the likeness of men, as men are, just where they are.

"The Word was made flesh." He "took part of the same" flesh and blood as that of which the children of men are partakers, as they are since man has fallen into sin. And so it is written: "When the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made…under the law."

To be under the law is to be guilty, condemned, and subject to the curse. For it is written: "We know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that...all the world may become guilty before God." This because "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:19, 23; 6:14.

And the guilt of sin brings the curse. In Zech. 5:1-4, the prophet beheld a "flying roll; the length thereof…twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits." The Lord said to him: "This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth." And what is the cause of this curse over the face of the whole earth? This: "For every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it."

That is, this roll is the law of God, one commandment being cited from each table, showing that both tables of the law are included in the roll. Every one that stealeth— every one that transgresseth the law in the things of the second table—shall be cut off as on this side of the law according to it, and every one that sweareth—every one that transgresseth in the things of the first table of the law—shall be cut off as on that side of the law according to it.

The heavenly recorders do not need to write out a statement of each particular sin of every man but simply to indicate on the roll that pertains to man the particular commandment that is violated in each transgression. And that such a roll of the law does go with every man wherever he goes and even abides in his house is plain from the next words: "I will bring it forth, saith the Lord of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief, and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by My name: and it shall remain in the midst of his house."

And unless a remedy shall be found, there that roll of the law will remain until the curse shall consume that man, and his house, "with the timber thereof and the stones thereof:" that is, until the curse shall devour the earth in that great day when the very elements shall melt with fervent heat. For "the strength of sin" and the curse "is the

law." 1 Corinthians 15:56; Isaiah 24:5, 6:2 Peter 3:10-12.

But, thanks be to God, "God sent forth His son, made…under the law, to redeem them that were under the law." Galatians 4:4,5. By His coming He brought redemption to every soul who is under the law. But in order perfectly to bring that redemption to men under the law, He Himself must come to men, just where they are and as they are, under the law.

And this "was made."He did, for he was "made under the law;" He was made "guilty;" He was made condemned by the law; He was "made" as guilty as any man is guilty who is under the law. He was "made" under condemnation as fully as any man is under condemnation because of his violation of the law. He was "made" under the curse as completely as any man in the world has ever been or ever can be under the curse. For it is written: "He that is hanged ["on a tree"] is accursed of God." Deut. 21:23.

The Hebrew makes this stronger still, for the literal translation is: "He that hangeth on a tree is the curse of God." And this is exactly the strength of the fact respecting Christ, for it is written that He was "made a curse." Thus, when He was made under the law, He was made all that it means to be under the law. He was made guilty; He was made condemned; He was made a curse.

But bear in mind forever that all this He "was made." He was none of this of Himself, of native fault, but all of it he "was made." And He was made it all for us: for us who are under the law; for us who are under condemnation because of transgression of the law; for us who are under the curse because of swearing and lying and killing and stealing and committing adultery and all the other infractions of the roll of God's law that goeth with us and that remaineth in our house.

He was made under the law to redeem them that are under the law. He was made a curse to redeem them that are under the curse because of being under the law.

But for whomsoever it was done, and whatsoever is accomplished by the doing of it, there must never be forgotten the fact that, in order to the doing of that which was done He had to be "made" that which those already were for whom the thing was done.

Any man, therefore, in all the world, who knows guilt, by that very thing knows also what Jesus felt for him and by this knows how close Jesus has come to him. Whosoever knows what is condemnation in that knows exactly what Jesus felt for him and so knows how thoroughly Jesus is able to sympathize with him and to redeem him.

Whosoever knows the curse of sin, "the plague of his own heart," in that can know exactly what Jesus experienced for him and how entirely Jesus identified Himself, in very experience, with him.

Bearing guilt, being under condemnation and so under the weight of the curse, Jesus, a whole lifetime in this world of guilt, condemnation, and the curse, lived the perfect life of the righteousness of God, without ever sinning at all. And whenever any man knowing guilt, condemnation, and the curse of sin, and knowing that Jesus actually felt in His experience all this just as man feels it; then, in addition, that man by believing in Jesus can know in his experience the blessedness of the perfect life of the righteousness of God in his life to redeem him from guilt, from condemnation, and from the curse; and to be manifested in his whole lifetime to keep him from ever sinning at all.

Christ was made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law. And that blessed work is accomplished for every soul who accepts of that redemption.

"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us." His being made a curse is not in vain: it accomplishes all that was intended by it in behalf of every man who will receive it. For it was all done "that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Galatians 3:14.

Still, whatever was intended by it and whatever is accomplished by it, there must always be borne in mind by every soul the FACT that, in His condescension, in His emptying Himself and being "made in the likeness of men" and "made flesh," He was made under the law, guilty,—under condemnation, under the curse,—as really and as entirely as is any soul that shall ever be redeemed.

And having passed through it all, He is the author of eternal salvation and is able to save to the uttermost from deepest loss all who come unto God by Him.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

I don't think we inherit the sin of alcoholism or heroin addiction per se, but through epigenetics we may inherit the inclination/propensity to the addiction.

But not Christ, according your beliefs, correct? ....

Correct. His body was the product of heredity 4k yrs removed from the tree of life, minus the inherited moral depravity.

Here's your original comment, with my question following:

Quote:

I don't think we inherit the sin of alcoholism or heroin addiction per se, but through epigenetics we may inherit the inclination/propensity to the addiction.

But not Christ, according your beliefs, correct? That is, I'm wanting to clarify what it is you disagree with. I understand your position to be that Christ's heredity was different than ours in that we may, through epigenetics, inherit the inclination to an addiction, but Christ did not inherit such inclinations. That is, Christ's human inheritance was unique in that it was exempt from any inclinations that come through epigenetics to anything negative.

By your response, you're agreeing with the rest of what I wrote? I'm wanting to make this clear, because you truncated this in your response. Especially the last sentence. From your response, I infer that you would consider any inclination from epigentics to anything negative would constitute "moral depravity." This means that a person is morally depraved because of their DNA, regardless of anything they might or might not do.

[pnattmbtc]

If we have to hide behind SOP statements, to me, that proves we haven't really studied it out from the Bible, but have taken some statements from the SOP and then not backed them up.

That is so, so wrong.

It deeply concerns me when Gods people cannot share their position on a biblical authority alone.

I appreciate where you're coming from, and have presented an argument for you based entirely on Scripture. However, I think it's a bit naive to think that you can post this subject to a bunch of SDAs and not have the discussion revolve around EGW quotes, the Baker letter, etc. That's like waving a red flag in front of a bull and expecting him not to charge!

I'm interested in what you think of the Biblical argument.

[pnattmbtc]

I think sometimes people do not realise that what Ellen White stated is in fact in the Bible, but they haven't looked in the right place yet.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

But at the moment, all people have done, is quoted one statement or another and voiced their understanding and yet not one cohesive argument from the bible has been put forward.

Here's a cohesive argument, from the Bible:

"Christ Jesus,...being in the form of God,...emptied Himself, and took upon Him the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men." Philippians 2:5-7, R.V. He was made in the likeness of men, as men are, just where they are.

"The Word was made flesh." He "took part of the same" flesh and blood as that of which the children of men are partakers, as they are since man has fallen into sin. And so it is written: "When the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made…under the law."

To be under the law is to be guilty, condemned, and subject to the curse. For it is written: "We know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that...all the world may become guilty before God." This because "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:19, 23; 6:14.

And the guilt of sin brings the curse. In Zech. 5:1-4, the prophet beheld a "flying roll; the length thereof…twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits." The Lord said to him: "This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth." And what is the cause of this curse over the face of the whole earth? This: "For every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it."

That is, this roll is the law of God, one commandment being cited from each table, showing that both tables of the law are included in the roll. Every one that stealeth— every one that transgresseth the law in the things of the second table—shall be cut off as on this side of the law according to it, and every one that sweareth—every one that transgresseth in the things of the first table of the law—shall be cut off as on that side of the law according to it.

The heavenly recorders do not need to write out a statement of each particular sin of every man but simply to indicate on the roll that pertains to man the particular commandment that is violated in each transgression. And that such a roll of the law does go with every man wherever he goes and even abides in his house is plain from the next words: "I will bring it forth, saith the Lord of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief, and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by My name: and it shall remain in the midst of his house."

And unless a remedy shall be found, there that roll of the law will remain until the curse shall consume that man, and his house, "with the timber thereof and the stones thereof:" that is, until the curse shall devour the earth in that great day when the very elements shall melt with fervent heat. For "the strength of sin" and the curse "is the

law." 1 Corinthians 15:56; Isaiah 24:5, 6:2 Peter 3:10-12.

But, thanks be to God, "God sent forth His son, made…under the law, to redeem them that were under the law." Galatians 4:4,5. By His coming He brought redemption to every soul who is under the law. But in order perfectly to bring that redemption to men under the law, He Himself must come to men, just where they are and as they are, under the law.

And this "was made."He did, for he was "made under the law;" He was made "guilty;" He was made condemned by the law; He was "made" as guilty as any man is guilty who is under the law. He was "made" under condemnation as fully as any man is under condemnation because of his violation of the law. He was "made" under the curse as completely as any man in the world has ever been or ever can be under the curse. For it is written: "He that is hanged ["on a tree"] is accursed of God." Deut. 21:23.

The Hebrew makes this stronger still, for the literal translation is: "He that hangeth on a tree is the curse of God." And this is exactly the strength of the fact respecting Christ, for it is written that He was "made a curse." Thus, when He was made under the law, He was made all that it means to be under the law. He was made guilty; He was made condemned; He was made a curse.

But bear in mind forever that all this He "was made." He was none of this of Himself, of native fault, but all of it he "was made." And He was made it all for us: for us who are under the law; for us who are under condemnation because of transgression of the law; for us who are under the curse because of swearing and lying and killing and stealing and committing adultery and all the other infractions of the roll of God's law that goeth with us and that remaineth in our house.

He was made under the law to redeem them that are under the law. He was made a curse to redeem them that are under the curse because of being under the law.

But for whomsoever it was done, and whatsoever is accomplished by the doing of it, there must never be forgotten the fact that, in order to the doing of that which was done He had to be "made" that which those already were for whom the thing was done.

Any man, therefore, in all the world, who knows guilt, by that very thing knows also what Jesus felt for him and by this knows how close Jesus has come to him. Whosoever knows what is condemnation in that knows exactly what Jesus felt for him and so knows how thoroughly Jesus is able to sympathize with him and to redeem him.

Whosoever knows the curse of sin, "the plague of his own heart," in that can know exactly what Jesus experienced for him and how entirely Jesus identified Himself, in very experience, with him.

Bearing guilt, being under condemnation and so under the weight of the curse, Jesus, a whole lifetime in this world of guilt, condemnation, and the curse, lived the perfect life of the righteousness of God, without ever sinning at all. And whenever any man knowing guilt, condemnation, and the curse of sin, and knowing that Jesus actually felt in His experience all this just as man feels it; then, in addition, that man by believing in Jesus can know in his experience the blessedness of the perfect life of the righteousness of God in his life to redeem him from guilt, from condemnation, and from the curse; and to be manifested in his whole lifetime to keep him from ever sinning at all.

Christ was made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law. And that blessed work is accomplished for every soul who accepts of that redemption.

"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us." His being made a curse is not in vain: it accomplishes all that was intended by it in behalf of every man who will receive it. For it was all done "that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Galatians 3:14.

Still, whatever was intended by it and whatever is accomplished by it, there must always be borne in mind by every soul the FACT that, in His condescension, in His emptying Himself and being "made in the likeness of men" and "made flesh," He was made under the law, guilty,—under condemnation, under the curse,—as really and as entirely as is any soul that shall ever be redeemed.

And having passed through it all, He is the author of eternal salvation and is able to save to the uttermost from deepest loss all who come unto God by Him.

Thank you for the post Pnat.

But could it be argued that "being under the law", is not necessarily the same as having the same "nature" as us?

Remember, I am not trying to prove a position, just testing what people are saying. :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

If we have to hide behind SOP statements, to me, that proves we haven't really studied it out from the Bible, but have taken some statements from the SOP and then not backed them up.

That is so, so wrong.

It deeply concerns me when Gods people cannot share their position on a biblical authority alone.

I appreciate where you're coming from, and have presented an argument for you based entirely on Scripture. However, I think it's a bit naive to think that you can post this subject to a bunch of SDAs and not have the discussion revolve around EGW quotes, the Baker letter, etc. That's like waving a red flag in front of a bull and expecting him not to charge!

I'm interested in what you think of the Biblical argument.

I appreciated the argument with scripture Pnat. :-)

You may well be right about the "red flag" thing.

Unfortunately, some think I am diminishing the SOP when I make these types of requests.

When it is exactly what we are counciled to do...

[pnattmbtc]

Didn't one of these messengers lose their way Sky?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I think sometimes people do not realise that what Ellen White stated is in fact in the Bible, but they haven't looked in the right place yet.

I agree with this.

Quote:

Often the emotions and insights she shares about Christ on the Cross is found in the Psalms for instance.

This is a good example.

My own view, is that Ellen White was led by the Spirit and given deep insight into the scripture that could then be bought together in the Desire of Ages.

She may have given additional insight, I cannot be sure, but I do suspect much of what she wrote is actually there in the scripture.

I discovered this principle early on as an SDA.

She stated that every one of us has a "guardian angel".

I was really unsure about this, because I had not found that in the Bible.

Until one day I found it, from Jesus' very lips Himself!

I began to realise that Ellen White had a phenomenal grasp of the scriptures by the time she wrote Desire of Ages etc.

Which many of us cannot equal, so we think that it is "new information" when in fact it is not, it is "unearthed treasure" from the scriptures themselves...

How far this can be carried, I would not dare to say, but it is an interesting ongoing investigation of mine...

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Didn't one of these messengers lose their way Sky?

Quote:

It is quite possible that Elders Jones and Waggoner may be overthrown by the temptations of the enemy; but if they should be, this would not prove that they had had no message from God, or that the work that they had done was all a mistake. But should this happen, how many would take this position, and enter into a fatal delusion because they are not under the control of the Spirit of God. (Manuscript Releases Volume Three [Nos. 162-209], Page 201)

[Gerr]

Do you think "flesh" here means "body"?

Notice it says "flesh with the affections and lusts", it is quite specific about what has been crucified. :-)

Whether flesh = body doesn't matter. As I already said, if the crufixion of the flesh is literal, you'd be hanging on a tree. When Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ..." Gal 2:20, and, "we were buried with Him by baptism..." Rom 6, it is metaphorical. That's why he said, and I repeat, "Reckon/consider yourselves dead..."

[Gerr]

Remember folks, we should be able to show every point of our beliefs from the scripture.

If we cannot, something in our beliefs must be wrong, or we have not really established them in scripture.

So far, no one has made a "solid" biblical case for their view.

That's because you either don't see or won't accept what the Scripture clearly (to me anyway) says:

ESV | Lk 1:35 "And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy — the Son of God."

There has NEVER been any other descendants of A & E that I am aware of that has been conceived of the HS & called "holy" even before conception. To say that He had sinful flesh because He was of the seed of David is an unwarranted stretch of the text considering that His father was the HS.

Nowhere in Scripture that I'm aware of thus it say that He had "sinful flesh." Rom 8:3 says, "in the likeness of sinful flesh." If Christ came with a flesh full of sin, then the Scripture, "..in Him there is no sin," 1 Jn 3:5 could not be true.

[Gerr]

Thus in the flesh of Jesus Christ--not in Himself, but in His flesh--our flesh which He took in the human nature--there were just the same tendencies to sin that are in you and me.

If that is true, then He was neither conceived by the HS nor holy, and would have been born "by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind," Eph 2:3. That's obviously NOT true. He was the "Son of God" from conception. And if He the propensities to evil like we have, He would have needed to be born again & needed a savior as well.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug

d:Being born with no inherent propensities gives one no advantages in a sin filled world.It probably makes it more difficult.

p:Why would this make sense? I don't know what you mean by "inherent propensities," but whatever you mean by it, I can't imagine that not having them would make things harder.

d:Sorry,pnatt,I guess I left out the "towards sin" part of my post.Imagine yourself(like myself)having an intense dislike for onions and being required to eat them or starve to death. Kinda simple,I know, but ask yourself if it was more difficult for Christ to resist the sinful urges within Himself, or to willingly subject Himself to that which was antagonistic to His nature,finally becoming completely sin filled.

Surely having a sinless nature would be an advantage to overcoming sin. How could it not be?

Well,if one had a sinless nature they wouldn't have to overcome sin.But did Jesus have to overcome his own sin or sinfulness? How then could He be called "the Holy One"? Did He become perfect in flesh after He had completely overcome His own sinfulness?Did He overcome Himself,living a lifetime of struggle with His own destructive impulses to sin?

[Guest]

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the nature of Abraham.

It would have been an almost infinite humiliation for the Son of God to take man’s nature, even when Adam stood in his innocence in Eden. But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {CSA 6.7}

1Peter 2:21 For even to this were you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow his steps:

An example is something you can follow, just like the text says we should. If jesus overcame by using anything other than our sinful human nature, or by using anything that we don't have access to, then it was not an example at all. But merely an exhibition.

[Gerr]

So we have to ask each other this question:

What does the bible say brother/sister?

And the Bible says: "the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me."

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009 (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version.) (Jn 14:30). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

As the second Adam there was no propensity/inclination that the devil could exploit to entice Him to sin, just as there was no propensity/inclination to sin in the first Adam when the devil came to him.

[Gerr]

So when you said, "BODILY-WISE, He was the second Adam AFTER the fall." you meant "very much like" us, in reference to His body, but NOT quite like us.

This correctly represents your view?

So BODILY-WISE, He was the second Adam AFTER the fall, mostly, but not completely.

His body was like that of any Jew 2k yrs ago, but without the moral depravity. His body did not have the vitality of Adam's, the result of thousands of years of hereditary degeneracy, but in moral purity, He stood on the same level as Adam before he fell. That's how I see it.

[Gerr]

Hey, Richard, since you came in later in this discussion, did you start from the beginning? I would hate to repeat what I have already posted to respond to your comment.

[Guest]

Have you already shown how Jesus using something we don't have access to, is an example, and not an exhibition? If you have, I didn't see it.