Christ's human nature...

[Gerr]

I never said He had ACCESS to something we don't/can't have access to.

[Gerr]

Are you meaning by this you don't see what difference it makes? The difference has to do with what is being contrasted.

What I'm saying is that one doesn't contradict the other. Here's the SDABC that I quoted which in turn was supposed to have been quoted from Letter 8, 1895:

(Ch. 14:30; Luke 1:31-35; 1 Corinthians 15:22, 45; Hebrews 4:15.) Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {5BC 1128.4}

Bro. _____, avoid every question in relation to the humanity of Christ which is liable to be misunderstood. Truth lies close to the track of presumption. In treating upon the humanity of Christ, you need to guard strenuously every assertion, lest your words be taken to mean more than they imply, and thus you lose or dim the clear perceptions of His humanity as combined with divinity. His birth was a miracle of God; for, said the angel, "Behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." {5BC 1128.5}

These words do not refer to any human being, except to the Son of the infinite God. Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to, corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption. He was tempted in all points like as man is tempted, yet He is called "that holy thing." It is a mystery that is left unexplained to mortals that

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Christ could be tempted in all points like as we are, and yet be without sin. The incarnation of Christ has ever been, and will ever remain a mystery. That which is revealed, is for us and for our children, but let every human being be warned from the ground of making Christ altogether human, such an one as ourselves; for it cannot be. The exact time when humanity blended with divinity, it is not necessary for us to know. We are to keep our feet on the Rock Christ Jesus, as God revealed in humanity. {5BC 1128.6}

I perceive that there is danger in approaching subjects which dwell on the humanity of the Son of the infinite God. He did humble Himself when He saw He was in fashion as a man, that He might understand the force of all temptations wherewith man is beset. {5BC 1129.1}

The first Adam fell; the second Adam held fast to God and His Word under the most trying circumstances, and His faith in His Father's goodness, mercy, and love did not waver for one moment. "It is written" was His weapon of resistance, and it is the sword of the Spirit which every human being is to use. "Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me"--nothing to respond to temptation. On not one occasion was there a response to his manifold temptations. Not once did Christ step on Satan's ground, to give him any advantage. Satan found nothing in Him to encourage his advances (Letter 8, 1895). {5BC 1129.2}

And here's the MR quote:

Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin, his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {13MR 18.1}

Bro. Baker, avoid every question in relation to the humanity of Christ which is liable to be misunderstood. Truth lies close to the track of presumption. In treating upon the humanity of Christ, you need to guard strenuously every assertion, lest your words be taken to mean more than they imply, and thus you lose or dim the clear perceptions of His humanity as combined with divinity. His birth was a miracle of God; for, said the angel, "Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great and shall be called the son of the Highest; and the Lord shall give unto him the throne of his Father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing that I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall

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be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." {13MR 18.2}

These words are not addressed to any human being, except to the Son of the Infinite God. Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption. He was tempted in all points like as man is tempted, yet He is called that holy thing. It is a mystery that is left unexplained to mortals that Christ could be tempted in all points like as we are, and yet be without sin. The incarnation of Christ has ever been, and will ever remain a mystery. That which is revealed, is for us and for our children, but let every human being be warned from the ground of making Christ altogether human, such an one as ourselves: for it cannot be. The exact time when humanity blended with divinity, it is not necessary for us to know. We are to keep our feet on the rock, Christ Jesus, as God revealed in humanity. {13MR 19.1}

I perceive that there is danger in approaching subjects which dwell on the humanity of the Son of the infinite God. He did humble Himself when He saw He was in fashion as a man, that He might understand the force of all temptations wherewith man is beset. {13MR 19.2}

The first Adam fell: the second Adam held fast to God and His word under the most trying circumstances, and His faith in His Father's goodness, mercy, and love did not waver for one moment. "It is written" was His weapon of resistance, and it is the sword of the Spirit which every human being is to use. "Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me"--nothing to respond to temptation. Not one occasion has been given in response to His manifold temptations.

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Not once did Christ step on Satan's ground, to give him any advantage. Satan found nothing in Him to encourage his advances. {13MR 19.3}

[pnattmbtc]

Mark, have you heard of or read the book, The Word Was Made Flesh? It's a compilation by Ralph Larson and it quotes everything Ellen White ever wrote on the topic we're discussing. Not only does it contain the statements of Ellen White but also all the important statements by SDAs from 1852 to 1952. Of course, it also contains all of the Bible verses dealing with the human nature of Christ. It's a wonderful book but I'm not sure who makes it available today since pastor Larson died a number of years ago.

An obscure web site called "Amazon" offers it: http://www.amazon.com/dp/1572580321

Price: New for $8.95, Used for $5.49

[pnattmbtc]

Thank you for the post Pnat.

But could it be argued that "being under the law", is not necessarily the same as having the same "nature" as us?

Remember, I am not trying to prove a position, just testing what people are saying. :-)

Waggoner presented the same argument. Two places to consider this argument are in "The Gospel in Galatians" and "The Glad Tidings". The reference to the first one is http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/1888/waggonerbutler_twolaws4.html. Search for "Christ born under the law." This presents a very nice argument. In "The Glad Tidings" you can simply look for Gal. 4:4, and see Waggoner's comment on that verse.

[pnattmbtc]

I have no problem with the 1888 message, to which Sister White is addressing here.

But I am careful not to accept everything that Waggoner for instance said after that, as I believe he did end up accepting some things that Ellen White challenged, is that correct?

Her endorsements of Jones and Waggoner continued steadily (over 2,000 of them!) at least through 1896. I'm not aware of anything Waggoner wrote that Ellen White challenged. Some have accused Waggoner of pantheism, but I haven't seen any support for that. The arguments I've seen involve taking statements Waggoner made as literal which he obviously didn't intend as such. For example, Jesus spoke of waters of living water flowing from the belly. This obviously isn't literal. Waggoner used similar language.

Waggoner wrote some truly wonderful books. The Gospel in Creation. Bible Studies in the Book of Romans. The Everlasting Covenant. Three examples. He was a good writer.

[pnattmbtc]

To say that He had sinful flesh because He was of the seed of David is an unwarranted stretch of the text considering that His father was the HS.

The text says that Christ was of the seed of David (literally "sperm") according to the flesh, so it doesn't look to be a stretch at all. Also, the Holy Spirit was not Christ's father. I'm sure this is a heresy with some fancy name.

[pnattmbtc]

sky(quoting Jones)Thus in the flesh of Jesus Christ--not in Himself, but in His flesh--our flesh which He took in the human nature--there were just the same tendencies to sin that are in you and me.

G:If that is true, then He was neither conceived by the HS nor holy, and would have been born "by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind," Eph 2:3.

[pnattmbtc]

[quote name="doSurely having a sinless nature would be an advantage to overcoming sin. How could it not be?

Well,if one had a sinless nature they wouldn't have to overcome sin.But did Jesus have to overcome his own sin or sinfulness?[/quote"]

Christ bore our sin, and took our sinful nature. He had to overcome having done this.

Quote:

How then could He be called "the Holy One"?

Because He was God, and God is holy.

Did He become perfect in flesh after He had completely overcome His own sinfulness?

[pnattmbtc]

His body was like that of any Jew 2k yrs ago, but without the moral depravity. His body did not have the vitality of Adam's, the result of thousands of years of hereditary degeneracy, but in moral purity, He stood on the same level as Adam before he fell. That's how I see it.

There's nothing in inspiration which suggests that "moral depravity" comes from one's flesh. If this were true, then Elijah and Moses were morally depraved when they were translated, as will be the 144,000.

The SOP says that Christ accepted the workings of the great law of heredity, and that the results of this law are seen in His ancestors. What do you think this means? Do you think it means that if we look at Christ's ancestors we would see that they got tired?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Didn't one of these messengers lose their way Sky?

Quote:

It is quite possible that Elders Jones and Waggoner may be overthrown by the temptations of the enemy; but if they should be, this would not prove that they had had no message from God, or that the work that they had done was all a mistake. But should this happen, how many would take this position, and enter into a fatal delusion because they are not under the control of the Spirit of God. (Manuscript Releases Volume Three [Nos. 162-209], Page 201)

Jones did not lose his way. The leaders of the G.C. did. They were the ones who chose darkness rather than light but these same leaders, by fraud and guile, with the help of W.C. White were able to manipulate the testimonies to turn things upside down by making it look like it was Jones who had chosen darkness rather than light. Mrs. White herself warned that after having put God aside and accepted the devisings of men, that they would work under Satan's dictation to bring men under the control of men, that fraud and guile would bear the semblance of zeal for truth and for the advancement of the kingdom of God. She also told these same leaders that the Lord knew all about their turning things upside down. See T.M.97,90,91,366,361.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Gerry, here's what you misquoted:

Quote:

Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. [color:#3333FF]Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden.

Here's the SDABC quote, you say you quoted from:

Quote:

Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {5BC 1128.4}

The underlined portion is what you omitted.

The SDABC quote agrees with the MR quote. Both of these are quoting from the Baker letter. Only your quote is different.

[John317]

An obscure web site called "Amazon" offers it: http://www.amazon.com/dp/1572580321

Price: New for $8.95, Used for $5.49

Wonderful. Thank you, pnatt. That book is basically just quotes from the Bible, Ellen White, and other SDA thought-leaders on the topic we're discussing here. A great source for study.

[skyblue888]

The best study or material on this topic, as far as I can tell, was presented by A.T. Jones at the 1895 General Conference, lecture # 14.

sky

[John317]

Jones did not lose his way. The leaders of the G.C. did. They were the ones who chose darkness rather than light but these same leaders, by fraud and guile, with the help of W.C. White were able to manipulate the testimonies to turn things upside down by making it look like it was Jones who had chosen darkness rather than light..... See T.M.97,90,91,366,361.

What is your evidence that Willie White manipulated the testimonies of Ellen White?

Is there any evidence that Ellen White believed Willie White did this?

[skyblue888]

John, again, I have posted the evidence before under "Loyalty to the Testimonies," in An Appeal by A.T. Jones.

There is no evidence that Ellen knew that he did this but there is evidence that he did manipulate the testimonies and that he was a man amenable to the men of the G.C. who had chosen darkness rather than light and who were determined to bring men under the control of men.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Wonderful. Thank you, pnatt. That book is basically just quotes from the Bible, Ellen White, and other SDA thought-leaders on the topic we're discussing here. A great source for study.

The author has some of his own work involved as well. For example, he has an analysis of the Baker letter which is very interesting.

[John317]

...His father was the HS.

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

... the Holy Spirit was not Christ's father.

The Bible teaches that God the Father is Jesus' Father. The Holy Spirit was the One who placed the seed in Mary's womb so that she became pregant with Jesus of Nazareth. Matt. 1: 18, 20.

Jesus was fully divine and fully man, so He literally assumed genuine human nature.

Some teach that Jesus had no human DNA, but I believe the evidence of the Bible and SOP is that Jesus inherited the same human nature that his ancestor David and his mother Mary had.

Catholics, of course, as well as others, believe that if Mary was sinful, Jesus must be sinful, too, but that is part of the doctrines of Babylon. Jesus inherited the tendencies but not the sins themselves. Having the tendencies is not having the sins. It isn't a sin until we act on the tendency, and Jesus never acted on the tendency. He proved that our having the tendency doesn't mean we have to act on our tendencies. No one will be condemned for being born with the tendencies. The Holy Spirit is able to keep us from acting on them just as He kept Jesus from acting on them.

How do you see this, Gerry?

[doug yowell]

What in this quote do you think suggests that Jesus was born with inherent propensities (like Adam's posterity)of disobedience?

[John317]

John, again, I have posted the evidence before under "Loyalty to the Testimonies," in An Appeal by A.T. Jones.

OK, thanks, I'll check it out.

Originally Posted By: skyblue

There is no evidence that Ellen knew that he did this but there is evidence that he did manipulate the testimonies and that he was a man amenable to the men of the G.C. who had chosen darkness rather than light and who were determined to bring men under the control of men.

sky

God told Ellen White that she could trust Willie White to help her in her work. So it seems strange that God would encourage her to have Willie work with her if God knew He was not honest and would betray her.

During the 1970s, I met and talked personally with Willie White's granddaughter, Grace White Jacques, who lived on our street in Loma Linda, and I just find it hard to believe that her father, Willie White, did things deliberately and knowingly to betray his mother whom he knew to be a genuine prophet of God. I would believe it if the evidence clearly showed it, but I would need some really good evidence and not conjecture or mere opinion or accusation.

Also, sky, something along this same line-- God sometimes revealed to Ellen White when she couldn't trust someone. If God knew that Willie White was manipulating Ellen White's writings, the very writings that God helped her write, wouldn't you think God would show her that she couldn't trust him?

[doug yowell]

During the 1970s, I met and talked personally with Willie White's granddaughter, Grace White Jacques, who lived on our street in Loma Linda,

Did you ever know a Jan Jacques? I know she was related to GWJ but I'm not sure how.

[John317]

"He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden."

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

What in this quote do you think suggests that Jesus was born with inherent propensities (like Adam's posterity)of disobedience?

For me it is in the words, "He was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted."

How is human nature tempted?

James answers:

James 1:14-15

But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. [15] Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

This tells me that Jesus knew what it was like to have a desire to disobey God, but He never acted upon it. He never sinned even by so much as a thought. But he was tempted from within, because of his fallen nature. As soon as the desire for wrong came into his mind, He immediately rejected it. But having the wrong thought itself is not sin. It is sin when we cherish or dwell upon the thought and don't reject it immediately.

According to the description of temptation in James 1: 14-15, Jesus never allowed the wrong desire to conceive and give birth to sin. But I believe he did know what it means to have the desire. Therein lay the genuine temptation. Some people teach that it is a sin merely to have the desire, but I don't believe the Bible or the SOP teaches this.

It's important to remember that Satan is able to plant thoughts into our minds, and this is what he did to Jesus. Such thoughts are not sin until we cherish them and act upon them.

What are your, or anyone else's, thoughts about this?

[John317]

I don't know the name "Jan."

I talked with Grace's husband, John. He loved to talk about the angels. He made a special study of angels, and he talked about them while he gave me a personal tour of the Elmshaven house about 1974. He showed me where the angel would sometimes wake up Ellen White early in the morning in order to write. He said that the light of the angel was different from normal light, and that sometimes people walking by the house going to work at the Sanatarium would see this strange light in the window of Ellen White's room.

By the way, he was a very interesting man in his own right. He wrote a book years before called Escape from Siberia, which told the true story of his escape from a Siberian prison during the time of the Czar. My father had a first edition of this book, which I read as a teenager. I'm sure anyone interested in it can read it at the White Estate.

Mr. Jacques re-wrote and updated the manuscript of Escape From Siberia sometime in the 1970s but tragically it was lost in the mail, and he died a short time afterward. So it was never re-published as he had wanted and planned.

Grace taught fifth grade across the hall from where I went to sixth grade at Loma Linda Elementary. My dad was the principal so he knew her very well. I used to see her walking down our street from school all the time.

Below is a small picture of Grace with the White family when she was a young girl. It was taken about 1913. She is the little girl sitting on the grass at the feet of Willie White, who is in the front row on the left-side of the picture. I'm sorry I don't have a larger picture, but at least you can see what Grace and her husband look like.

The second picture is of Mr. and Mrs. Jacques. They look here like they did in the early 1970s. It may have been taken in late 1960s to early 1970s.

The third picture shows Grace Jacques in about 1907 with her father, W.C. White with other family members. Back row left to right is Mable White Workman, Wilfred Workman, D.E.(Dores) Robinson, Ella (White) Robinson. Front row is Herbert (?) White; W.C. White, Grace White; Mrs. W.C. (May Lacey) White, Henry (?) White.

[mrsducky]

I just ordered a copy. Thanks for the recommendation.

[John317]

I'm sure you'll get a lot out of that book. It's 348 pages filled with all the relevant evidence, and very well organized.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: John317

Mark, have you heard of or read the book, The Word Was Made Flesh? It's a compilation by Ralph Larson and it quotes everything Ellen White ever wrote on the topic we're discussing. Not only does it contain the statements of Ellen White but also all the important statements by SDAs from 1852 to 1952. Of course, it also contains all of the Bible verses dealing with the human nature of Christ. It's a wonderful book but I'm not sure who makes it available today since pastor Larson died a number of years ago.

An obscure web site called "Amazon" offers it: http://www.amazon.com/dp/1572580321

Price: New for $8.95, Used for $5.49

On Amazon.co.uk it comes in at around $25.00 - $28.00 used...