sdapropheticministry and Daniel 2

[Stan]

If Shepherd's Rod feel a need to speak to an audience, please do it elsewhere. They are a group that takes and robs, using an infrastructure and not contributing to it.

Fell free to promote, but not with this audience, build you own.

If anyone needs to have their membership status changed, please let me know.

[teresaq]

The posts that disappeared give no appearance of being Shepherd's Rod just "godsloveandlaw" who resurrected this thread today, based on his/her comments.

[Overaged]

an observation, if you take the writings from those sites, copy them to a word document, then delete everything that is not from ellen whites writings it is impossible to come to the conclusion that they would have you come to.

[Overaged]

If Shepherd's Rod feel a need to speak to an audience, please do it elsewhere. They are a group that takes and robs, using an infrastructure and not contributing to it.

Fell free to promote, but not with this audience, build you own.

If anyone needs to have their membership status changed, please let me know.

[12tribes]

Gold=Babylon

Silver=Medo-Persia

Brass=Greece

Iron=Rome

Clay=Church

Stone=God's Kingdom

Iron & Clay=State & church

Jeremiah 18:6

(6) O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

So this is telling us that just after the 4th kingdom fell that there would be a church-state power and 2 arose at that time the Papacy and Islam.

Quote:

The mingling of churchcraft and statecraft is represented by the iron and the clay. This union is weakening all the power of the churches. This investing the church with the power of the state will bring evil results. Men have almost passed the point of God's forbearance. They have invested their strength in politics, and have united with the papacy. But the time will come when God will punish those who have made void His law, and their evil work will recoil upon themselves (MS 63, 1899). {4BC 1168.8}

[jasd]

"The mingling of churchcraft and statecraft is represented by the iron and the clay. This union is weakening all the power of the churches. This investing the church with the power of the state will bring evil results. Men have almost passed the point of God's forbearance. They have invested their strength in politics, and have united with the papacy. But the time will come when God will punish those who have made void His law, and their evil work will recoil upon themselves"

>>Iron=Rome<<

I fail to see how one arrives at the conclusion that "clay and iron" represents "churchcraft and statecraft" I mean, taking just the one example above “Iron=Rome" - one must suppress the obvious – that the Emperor of Rome was thought to be the

Very Gd Himself.

The Empire functioned on that premise.

Ain not that a "mingling of churchcraft and statecraft"?—if so, why then was not Rome indentified with both clay and iron?

[Windsor]

One interesting theory I heard about the iron mixed with clay is that it represents reinforced concrete, a popular building material in the modern age.

[jasd]

>>One interesting theory I heard about the iron mixed with clay is that it represents reinforced concrete, a popular building material in the modern age.<<

Actually the Romans possessed a better science re concrete - than do we of this "modern age". That noted,

is what you've posted Truth?--if so, would you mind expanding upon any logic inherent to the statement. I ask, as I am inveterately - a curious person. That being said,

the statement bears characteristics of simple prevarication.

A lie.

Don't wanna be dyin' with that to your account...

But if it's humour - we all appreciate a bit of humour - just so's we knows it is.

[Gordon1]

Steel-reinforced concrete disintegrates over time, especially in moving open structures (toes?) such as bridges, tunnels, viaducts. Exposure to the elements, winter freezing, pollution, road salt and heavy traffic can render it a crumbling hazardous mess.

Concrete failures are becoming a common news item here as infrastructure degrades due to lack of oversight & maintenance.

[John317]

I fail to see how one arrives at the conclusion that "clay and iron" represents "churchcraft and statecraft" I mean, taking just the one example above &#147;Iron=Rome" - one must suppress the obvious &#150; that the Emperor of Rome was thought to be the

Very Gd Himself.

The Empire functioned on that premise.

Ain not that a "mingling of churchcraft and statecraft"?&#151;if so, why then was not Rome indentified with both clay and iron?

The reason is that pagan Rome did not profess to be the church. Papal Rome does.

But the clay and the iron are really representative of the fact that the Empire of Rome (the legs, both the Eastern and the Western parts) broke up into individual states (the feet), which they remain to this day and always will remain until Christ returns.

That is why during WW2, SDAs could guarantee that Hitler would fail to bring all Europe under one government.

Arthur Maxwell, for instance, published a book before the war was over, declaring that on the basis of Bible prophecy, he could predict that Hitler would fail in his quest to conquer all of Europe. Adolf Hitler came alarmingly close to winning, but God had told us in His Word that no one will be able to unite all of the European states as one empire or one nation again.

[Kevin H]

Yes John, now some have noticed, which much of Adventism has not noticed, is that Daniel 2 has 7 periods, with emphesses on the 4 that lead to the time of Chirst, and Revelation expands on the last 3.

1.)Gold: Babylon

2.)Silver: Medio-Persia

3.)Brass: Greece

4.)Iron: Rome

5.)Feet of iron and clay: The united church state, Holy Roman Empire, Papal Supremicy.

6.)Toes of iron and clay: A time of independent nations. Revelation talks in more globle terms than just Europe, and this way we don't have to argue over just which horns they are and trusting in the reply there are too many horns. The sepperateness just indicates a time of independent nations instead of a major world empire controling God's people

7.) The text does NOT say that it will NEVER cleave together, It prodicts an event that can appear that they have finally been united, a final world empire, what the text does predict is that even though there may be a short time that it appears to work, that it very soon end up in utter chaos, with things like life in the seas dieing and fresh water problems and the scorching heat of the sun, epidemic diseases, and the other symbols of destruction and Mrs. White predicts that they will blaim those of us who do not go along with the system and that they need to kill us to get God's blessings and for the 7th period to suceed. But as Earth is finally reaching the point of no longer able to support life, As we deal with these megadisasters God has not reserved the end of earth to these megadisasters but to himself. I know that this differes from tradition, but the Academy Bible Book had a footnote that there might be a different interpetation of the trumptes and quoted Mrs. White's statement that trump after trump must sound, and plague after plague must fall, and at AUC it was pointed out that Mrs. White had several quotes placing the 7 trumpets into the future, and from this we were taught that the trumpets are the little time of truble where we are to live in the country and these problems will force people to decide fully for or fully against Christ. Every character will be fully developed so that we close probation on ourselves and Christ acknowleges our choice, shows us and the universe what unrestrained sin does as we completely destroy ourselves but as life is about to go out, the true life returns to bring us home.

[John317]

....7.) The text does NOT say that it will NEVER cleave together, It prodicts an event that can appear that they have finally been united, a final world empire, what the text does predict is that even though there may be a short time that it appears to work, that it very soon end up in utter chaos, with things like life in the seas dieing and fresh water problems and the scorching heat of the sun, epidemic diseases, and the other symbols of destruction ....

Sure, there could be a brief period right at the end when the nations of Europe appear to be united. There are serious attempts even now to unite all of the Europeans states. But the point here is that they are still independent nations.

We have the United States of America where we're really one nation, but that will never happen in Europe. The "united states of Europe" are not a single nation. But as you say, they could be forced to be united for a short time prior to Christ's return.

[John317]

... the Academy Bible Book had a footnote that there might be a different interpetation of the trumptes and quoted Mrs. White's statement that trump after trump must sound, and plague after plague must fall, and at AUC it was pointed out that Mrs. White had several quotes placing the 7 trumpets into the future, and from this we were taught that the trumpets are the little time of truble where we are to live in the country and these problems will force people to decide fully for or fully against Christ.

Kevin, do you remember the name of that Academy Bible Book? What years was that book being used in the Academy? I may have it.

Also, have you seen those EGW quotes since you left AUC?

[Kevin H]

It was the one I had in the 1970s and was still in use when I did my student teaching in 1985. But while it only made a footnote there with just one quote, at AUC and on the "Last Day Events" tapes at 1976 Southern New England Campmeeting there were several quotes given from Mrs. White applying the trumpets to the future.

It was pointed out at AUC in Revelation class that Miller (and the pre-millerite Adventists) had the seals, trumpets and plagues all spread out over time covering similar events. Mrs. White broke from that tradition by not saying too much about the seals, and while making some references to the traditional interpetation of the trumpets (and those quotes tended to be worded in an interesting way where she does not necessarly see them as the actual fulfillment, but still shows God's leading in the events) but making the comments of the trumpets and plagues being future. Traditional Adventism has formed a compromise, of course keeping the seals, but we side with Miller's view of the trumpets and Mrs. White's view of the Plagues.

Oh, John, have you gotten to view the videos of that link I sent you a few months ago?