Arranged Marriages and Adventism

[Stan]

When someone from a Non-European/Western/Aussie etc culture becomes an Adventist, should they have to adopt our current Christian Traditions, such as a romanced based marriage etc etc

[Stan]

Arranged marriage - very low rate of Divorce

Romanced based - very HIGH rate of Divorce

[darlene]

It may be true that arranged marriages have a very low divorce rate and romance based have a very high divorce rate but, you must take into account the fear factor. For instance in Surrey, BC last summer there was a young lady who wanted to marry for romance and her parents sent her to India and arranged for her to be killed while she was in India. So, Stan, don't you think many of the arranged marriages stay together because they fear for their lives while those that are romance based fall apart because they do not fear the consequences that some in an arranged marriages face?

[Stan]

Some of my east Indian friends, view it different. I would also suspect that the percentage of abuse, as the one you pointed out, is significantly higher in western culture than in some of the places where arranged marriage is.

Part of this inlines with respect for parents, and that parents seek out the best they can for their children.

[Gregory Matthews]

Stan, I believe that in some of the places where marriages are arranged abuse (and murder) is much higher.

[Nicodema]

I could not even begin to conceive of what it would be like to grow up in any sort of cultural or subcultural milieu where an arranged marriage is the norm. The very thought of it is anathema to me, that anyone but God or myself should choose my life-mate. Particularly for reasons that have nothing to do with personal well being but are often dynastic in nature, all about keeping peace between rival families or securing business or political interests in higher castes. I would die. I would go crazy. I would rebel.

I don't think it's right to impose our culture on someone else's, no, but I think part of liberating the captives is to enlighten them to the broader range of their choices through education upon moral and spiritual principles. Then let them decide whether they want to continue this or that cultural tradition, or exchange it in favor of doing things a different way. From what I hear, converts in other lands are pretty much ready to break with tradition and family anyway -- they have to be, to endure some of the social persecution that comes to them with the decision simply to become a Christian.

But that's my limited take on things -- I am not a travelled person; I know nothing about life outside the States other than what I read. I'd love to remedy this but time and finance have never simultaneously permitted.

[Taylor]

I was in India last year and yes the arranged marriages seem to work amoungst Christians (even so I don't like the idea either) as the parents have the best interest of their child in mind. But where the parents were out for money etc to be gained from the dowry etc there were sad faced brides or families. What is sad is to be forced to marry against your wishes, in my opinion.

[Bravus]

I was gonna say - yeah, 'cos romance-based marriages are *so* successful in our culture...

[Taylor]

What I think is that arranged or romanced based marriages which are entered upon with God in mind, with dedication to the Lord, etc can both be successful but yes, romance isn't enough to keep a marriage together, neither is arrangement. It think it is far deeper. True there are fewer divorces in arranged marriages and amongst Christians that might account for something, but with non-Christians, some of it at least stays together because of stigma of the culture or just plain fear. There are two sides to every coin. I met some lovely people in India who had arranged marriages and they were very happy and obviously in love.

[Dr. Shane]

Everything I have read about arranged marriages is positive when compared to Western marriages. I asked my wife to marry me six days after we met and I wasn't in love in the sense that I had been with previous girlfriends. I choose her based on her faith. Back home I had a girlfriend that gave me butterflies in my stomach but she wasn't an Adventist and I knew I did not have God's approval. Sofia was very dedicated to the Lord. We were engaged for one year and have now been married for eight. I have no regrets.

I will share this. I hear those in "romance" marriages that after the honeymood their love starts to level out. With me it is quite the contrary. With every year that passes I fall deeper and deeper in love with my wife. Sometimes I look at her from accross the room and wonder why I am so lucky to have been blessed with such a woman. I have, at times, thought it would not be possible to love her more, only to be amazed later to fall even deeper in love with her. It seems as more time goes by, I learn my capacity to love her is more than what I had ever imagined. My life without her would be very empty.

[Pockey]

Shane you got engaged after 6 days of meeting your wife? Sweet! I know you said you chose her based on her faith, but 6 days...that's gotta be love at first sight too. Congrats man!

[Nan]

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I will share this. I hear those in "romance" marriages that after the honeymood their love starts to level out. With me it is quite the contrary. With every year that passes I fall deeper and deeper in love with my wife. Sometimes I look at her from accross the room and wonder why I am so lucky to have been blessed with such a woman. I have, at times, thought it would not be possible to love her more, only to be amazed later to fall even deeper in love with her. It seems as more time goes by, I learn my capacity to love her is more than what I had ever imagined. My life without her would be very empty.

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Shane when we got married, the friend who proposed the toast to us said that she hoped we would find, looking back, that today - our wedding day- was the day we loved each other the least. Sounds like you have that sort of marriage - I think we have too - and it is indeed blessed, to find that as you get to know your spouse better, you love more. We happen to think ours was arranged in heaven (well we are a bit old to have our families do it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

[Planey]

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The very thought of it is anathema to me, that anyone but God or myself should choose my life-mate.

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Do you think Hosea would agree with you?

[bevin]

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I choose her based on her faith.

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Interesting issue - what happens if she decides that the SDA church is not the place the Lord wants her to be? It has happened to many people...

I think compatible fundamental values - attitudes towards how to spend money, recreation, music, housing, food, vacation, work - are more important than either lust or religion.

Whether you select yourself, or whether your parents do the selecting, is not really relevant.

/Bevin

[Nicodema]

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The very thought of it is anathema to me, that anyone but God or myself should choose my life-mate.

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Do you think Hosea would agree with you?

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Read carefully - I said anyone BUT GOD or myself ... Hosea's was chosen by God.

I agree with the comments here to the gist of that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain who build it. In other words what makes the difference is God being present in the marriage. This is another hypothetical statement on my part; something I can only guess by reasoning backwards from what I have never had: a Christian spouse or mate.

[cricket]

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The very thought of it is anathema to me, that anyone but God or myself should choose my life-mate.

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Just a different take on this: if God doesn't choose our life mates, but we get married anyway, does our mate then become the one that God chooses for us (to stay with forever)? I believe this is true: that once we are married, it is God's desire that we stay married and become one with Him; that we work together as a couple to learn and practice loving God as He desires.

Thoughts?

[Nicodema]

My first husband, yes. My second, no. The details of this are somewhat bizarre. Brace yourself.

I divorced the first to marry the second, and did this entirely under a total delusion that the second was my demonic astral lover come to me in the flesh and it was therefore my destiny to be with him. He believed as I believed about myself, that I was the incarnation of a certain dark entity who was his personal goddess, and so he shared the delusion from his end and sold everything he had to come 3,000 miles across the Atlantic Ocean to be with me. That was his "great sacrifice" and mine was my family, on this altar to Destiny. I hired a limo to take me to meet him at the airport -- it cost $350 which at the time considering how poor I was might as well have been $3,500. Neither of us had ever seen one another's face before he stepped off that plane. We'd communicated copiously through email, letters and telephone, exchanged gifts, etc. but never shared so much as a single photograph, believing ourselves to be above such petty concerns as caring what the "shell" looked like on each other. Sounds romantic doesn't it? A gothic match made in hell.

I cannot see the hand of God in any sense as having joined me with the second. God does not break His own laws where human lives are concerned. He would not have led me to adultery, divorce, and destruction of my family, especially not in the name of occultism and Satan worship and chasing after vain delusions, fantastic fantasies, and some notion of "destiny." The divorce from hubby #1 was friendly and above-board, no nasty court battles, open joint custody, no alimony or support demands, we agreed to everything between ourselves. My kids even LIKED my new mate, yet with all this "good" stuff going on, the divorce STILL devastated my kids, and continued to do so for YEARS after, I mean YEARS. I now know firsthand why it is said "God hates divorce."

At a certain point I knew beyond all shadow of a doubt that the second marriage was doomed to end. It could not survive no matter what, for it had never been intended in the first place. There was a very long, tearful, painful, unhappy time of "facing the music" for me over this, realizing what a horrible mistake it had been, etc. At one point I remember even telling my ex that if it were possible I'd get back together with him but that I knew he would not want to be with me anymore. He already had a new girlfriend at that point and they were getting serious.

Now the question is, what about #3, the one that comes along after everything else went kablooey and has no share nor part in having wrecked the first or cobbling together the second? At what point does forgiveness of sin erase these mistakes and leave a clean slate from which to have hope and a future, including a future with a new mate if one is found? Or after having made so many blunders with the marriage deal, is singleness and celibacy the only viable non-sinning option for a Christian? (Thinking in particular of the things Jesus said about divorce and adultery...)

[Dr. Shane]

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what happens if she decides that the SDA church is not the place the Lord wants her to be?

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Interesting that your post fell just after Planey's post about Hosea. If my wife were to leave the church I would hope I would react like Hosea did. When I got married I vowed for better and for worse. I took the vow twice - in English and Spanish. If she were to leave the church that certainly would be for worse. But part of my responsibility as a Christian husband is to be her spiritual support. Divorcing her because she left the church would really be abandoning that role.

Paul gave advise on this to Christian women. If their unbelieving husbands were pleased to stay with them, the wives were under no obligation to divorce them. However if the unbelievers were not pleased to stay with them, they were free to divorce.

[Nicodema]

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If their unbelieving husbands were pleased to stay with them, the wives were under no obligation to divorce them. However if the unbelievers were not pleased to stay with them, they were free to divorce.

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Shane, your opinion: does this last part mean they have to wait for the unbelieving spouse to divorce them? Or does it mean they are free to initiate the divorce? I'm wondering because I've heard that one debated before. What's your take on it?

[Dr. Shane]

I don't know if I have an opinion on that. I am quite torn when it comes to believers divorcing unbeleivers. Some people that just like to argue will try an stir the pot by asking "how do you know they are a believer?" Well, if they are a member in good standing, to me, they are a believer. Of course the churches in NAD don't disfellowship members as per the Church Manual so that makes it a little harder.

I can tell you this, Sister Nico. I find it very hard to think poorly of someone divorcing their unbelieving spouse. I have seen both men and women in the church that live with an unbelieving spouse and as a result comprimised on many of their religious beliefs.

[Nicodema]

Thanks for your answer, Brother Shane. I've seen some dear Sisters in the Lord (one in particular I am thinking of) who put their entire lives on hold for YEARS because they were convinced God's will was for them to wait for a separated spouse -- one who had left the church and/or had left the home -- to be the one to actually FILE the papers. I would try so hard to convince them they were free under those circumstances and they would just smile at me like I didn't know what I was talking about. And maybe I didn't, but I could not see God frowning upon them over such a thing, could you?

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "At what point does forgiveness of sin erase these mistakes and leave a clean slate from which to have hope and a future, including a future with a new mate if one is found? Or after having made so many blunders with the marriage deal, is singleness and celibacy the only viable non-sinning option for a Christian? (Thinking in particular of the things Jesus said about divorce and adultery...)"

Nico, you have clearly shared some very personal information, and taken a risk in doing so, as you have done in the past. I will make some responses to you, but I acknowledge that my responses may be superficial and incomplete.

Clean-slate: As far as sin and guilt is concerned, with God we can easily begain again with a clean slate. But, as you know that does not remove the natural consecuences of past sin. And in our personal lives, the marks of sin often remain.

Celibacy: God takes people where they are. The past is forgotten. Celibacy is not a requirement. There may be sin in the past marriage, divorce[s}, and much more. But, God does not require that such imprison such in the present. Rather, all of the past is forgotten. There is a new beginning, and the opportunity for new relationships.

Future with a new mate: I would encourage people from "problem background" (whatever that means) to seek rigourous professional pre-marital counseling. Why? People who have an established pattern of making emotionally charged decision, from a poor perspective, may need some help in making certain that they are not repeating the same pattern.

[Nicodema]

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Future with a new mate: I would encourage people from "problem background" (whatever that means) to seek rigourous professional pre-marital counseling. Why? People who have an established pattern of making emotionally charged decision, from a poor perspective, may need some help in making certain that they are not repeating the same pattern.

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Smart advice indeed. Now the clincher: what do you do when you seek professional counselling about not making the same mistakes over again and you are told "the answers are inside of you ..."

[Gregory Matthews]

The answeres may be inside you. Professional counselors help people to discover those answers. They often do not directly provide them. They help people to become independent, not dependent on others to tell them what to do, and to make careful decisions about their lives.

[Nicodema]

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I can tell you this, Sister Nico. I find it very hard to think poorly of someone divorcing their unbelieving spouse. I have seen both men and women in the church that live with an unbelieving spouse and as a result comprimised on many of their religious beliefs.

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The relationship I'm in now, while not a marriage, is much like one and illustrates this in living color. There are constant compromises being pushed and pulled from me due to this relationship, and the issues are NOT simple, cut-and-dried, black-and-white as they might seem to someone not dealing with such a thing. In some ways the relationship itself compromises my religious beliefs because we are living together without being married, just like the woman at the well (only he's my third mate, not my sixth!) I don't like this but what am I to do? I have to think of his happiness and his perspective and he would be devastated if I asked him to move out. He does not want to live alone; he hates being alone. He doesn't believe in God so what would that give him an impression about what God is like for me to rip our relationship apart now BECAUSE of wanting to honor God? He simply wouldn't understand it, at all. So it is very complicated.

I don't like things this way, but that's the way they are. I can only pray God takes me where I am today and will work things out according to His will. Probably one of the biggest problems as you can guess is a certain aspect of the marriage dynamic that unmarried couples are not supposed to have. Because we are "as if" married, it strains the relationship to not have a "whole" relationship, and it strains my beliefs to add that dimension -- if you get my drift.

Sorry if I'm giving too much information, but the only way I know how to get real input and answers to things is to be honest and true in my disclosures. I know real Brothers and Sisters will not judge me but will be compassionate, knowing how tangled up these kinds of things can be or can get. I can remember being immature spiritually and in life and thinking I knew the answer -- "well just break up with that person then" -- no compassion at all, no acknowledgement of human needs or long-term impact, etc. Just childish uninformed zeal. I'm older now and I know better than THAT now, but not better enough to have all the answers yet!