Inquisition

[Guest truthseeker007]

Sorry to post this here but i don t have acces to other parts of this forum.

I was wondering whether there are any scientific numbers of the people who were murdered by the inquisition.

Numbers range from a couple of thousands to more than a hundred million. Personally i think it is probably in the thousands/maybe a hundred thousand but not anymore because i think God would never allow many millions of his faithfull to be slaughthered?Or am i thinking too political now?

[Gail]

Good question!! Both of them! They have the potential of opening up a great discussion!

I just finished reading the Great Controversy and spent many thoughtful moments thinking about the great faith of God's people during the time of the Inquisition. I was in awe of the fortitude that God's grace provided them in their trials. We in our generation have much to learn about what grace can do in a life!

But as I read I could not help but notice that, as in the case of righteous Stephen in the book of Acts, their death was like seed. Those that witnessed the peaceful demeanor of the martyrs were in their own consciences piqued. Compassion and support for God's cause grew in their own hearts and the martyrs' sacrifices lead to more conversions for the Lord.

The book mentions that in the last great battle, that of just before Christ's coming, that will not be the case. People's hearts will not change any more and there would be no purpose served in any martyr's death. In that unique, special circumstance God's angels will preserve His faithful ones, wherever they are. The Bible talks about being hidden in God's pavilion:

"Psalm 27:5

For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock."

[Gail]

?????How many Jews died????? Before and during WW II???

Quote:

....because i think God would never allow many millions of his faithfull to be slaughthered?

Jews have been persecuted longer than that- and I would have to check my facts but I suspect that they may as well have been victims of the Inquisition as well.

I am going to begin a new topic related to this...

[Bravus]

Given that the population of the whole world at the time of the Inquisition was around 500 million, clearly there's no way a relatively small phenomenon in Spain killed 100 million. The Wikipedia article suggests total deaths on the order of 2-3,000 and that seems reasonable given the historical evidence.

[Bravus]

And the Jews were the *main* victims of the Inquisition.

[Gail]

Given that the population of the whole world at the time of the Inquisition was around 500 million, clearly there's no way a relatively small phenomenon in Spain killed 100 million. The Wikipedia article suggests total deaths on the order of 2-3,000 and that seems reasonable given the historical evidence.

Yes- that was what was coming up in my memory, too, that Spain was a huge factor in this case of anti-Semitism. Thanks for filling in the blank for me, Bravus!

[skyblue888]

I have always heard that at least 50 million protestants were slain by the papal power during the Dark Ages.

I thought the Jews were the main victims of Hitler.

sky

[Bravus]

Again, 50 million is 10% of the population of the entire world at the time. Someone has been lying to you.

[skyblue888]

I dont think so, Bravus. This is a well known fact. I would expect a papist to answer the way you did, not you.

The Inquisition was established in the 13th century, that most terrible of all the engines of the papacy. So especially from that time on until the middle of the 18th century millions were put to death for refusing to obey the dictates of the papacy. So it is not farfetched to say that during the 1260 years of papal supremacy, betweem A.D.538 and 1798, at least 50 millions lost their lives for refusing to pay homage to the decrees of the papacy. I have read that this is a minimal figure and that it could very well reach to nearly 100 millions.

It is said that during these centuries "the noon of the papacy was the midnight of the world." G.C.60.

sky

[Bravus]

The truth is important. Check your facts.

[Gerr]

Given that the population of the whole world at the time of the Inquisition was around 500 million, clearly there's no way a relatively small phenomenon in Spain killed 100 million. The Wikipedia article suggests total deaths on the order of 2-3,000 and that seems reasonable given the historical evidence.

G: The number of Waldenses alone far exceeds that number that were killed by the inquisition.

[Bravus]

Evidence?

Most sources still place the deaths among the Waldenses in the order of a few thousand, not millions.

Again, the truth is important. If we have charges to make against the papacy, they ought not to be ludicrous lies.

[Gail]

The Black Death was killing off thousands of people, too, at the same time. I don't know which was the larger factor in Early and Middle Ages fatalities...

[Gail]

Gonna go research a bit and be back.

[phkrause]

My 2 cents worth would be probably not in the millions and also not as low as a few thousand, I'd say in the hundreds of thousands, and than I would say millions for the Jews.

[Bravus]

Again, it's about the truth, not guesses. What does the *evidence* say?

[John317]

50 million is 10% of the population of the entire world at the time. Someone has been lying to you.

The wikipedia--

Quote:

it is estimated that more than 55 million people lived in the combined eastern and western Roman Empire (AD 300–400).

The Plague of Justinian caused Europe's population to drop by around 50% between 541 and the 8th century. The population of Europe was more than 70 million in 1340. The Black Death pandemic in the 14th century may have reduced the world's population from an estimated 450 million to between 350 and 375 million in 1400. It took roughly 200 years for Europe's population to regain its 1340 level.

Seventh-day Adventists believe that the main persecution of Christians in Europe took place under the fourth seal and fifth seals, from about 538 AD to about 1750, or after the Reformation. It was during those years that millions of Christians were martyred for their faith in Christ. So the Inquisition, while a significant part of history, represented a relatively small portion of the overall persecution in that part of the world both in terms of the number of people slain as well as the years during which the persecution took place.

[Bravus]

The question is, is what Seventh-day Adventists believe the truth? I think history would say more about that persecution if it was on the same scale as the Plague...

[Gerr]

Evidence?

The Waldensians

[ Sources: History of Protestantism, Rev J A Wylie (1889) his references including Histoire General des Eglises Evangeliques des Vallees de Piedmont, ou Vaudoises. Jean Leger (1669); Israel of the Alps, Alexis Muston (1854); History of the Vaudois Church, Antoine Monastier ( 1848). The Never Failing Light, Capt R M Stephens (1957).

History.

The early history of the Waldensians is rather patchy but exceedingly bloody after Innocent III approved the Dominican Order, created the Inquisition and ordered action against heretics. The main thrust of the Church of Rome at that time was aimed at the Albigenses (possibly named after the diocese of Albi in Languedoc where they had prospered for many years) who fled into the valleys. in 1275 the Inquisitor Reynerius charged the sects with a long list of alleged blasphemies and heresies that led to some one hundred thousand people of various denominations to perish under the hands of the Inquisition. Inevitably very many Waldensians were taken up it seems mainly for their money, and were able to secure their release on payment of huge fines. Some did not escape: the first Waldensian Martyr was a woman who suffered burning at Pinerolo in 1297.

16C wood cut, perception of the Church of Rome.

There was a steady ramping up of action against dissidents since the Council of Toulouse (1119) when a general excommunication was made on the Albigenses. Later Councils in 1139 (Lateran General Council), 1163 ( Council of Tours), 1179 (Third Lateran Council ) all continued the pursuit. This policy of extirpation continued for the next four hundred years washed in the blood of hundreds of thousands of Christians who dared to be different. Pope Innocent III was the most active in his persecutions at this time, the Lateran Council of 1215, issuing an edict enjoining the `extirpation of all heretics.` Subsequent Popes sought to carry on the fight. John XXII in 1332 sent Inquisitors into the valleys of the Lucerna and Perosa where there were synods held with some 500 representatives - indicating the large number of adherents there were. Fortunately, however, the zeal of the Popes was not always met with like enthusiasm by the lords and nobles who saw their best tenants and leading citizens being lost to them.

From 1378 - 1410 the `Great Schism` of the Papacy ( three popes trying to decide which one was the true pope) gave some respite. But it did not prevent a disaster in the valley of Pragelas (Pragelato). Here on Christmas Eve 1386 the Inquisitor Borelli descended in force while a second band attacked from the Col de Fenestrelle. Sandwiched between these forces the villagers were forced to flee.into the mountains and into a severe storm. The escape route was through a pass at over 9000 feet, but so many old people, mothers and children could not make it. In the morning several hundred were found frozen to death, including at least fifty children, some lying on the ice, others locked in their dead mother`s arms.

The 15th century was one long series of bloody intervention by the Inquisition, intermingled by occasional visits by preachers seeking to use eloquence to convert their audience. In 1425 St Bernard of Siena tried the honeyed words approach but failed dismally. There was some resistance, said to be mainly by Cathars. In the town of Cuneo there was on average one martyrdom per year for twenty two years. This led to a local rising in which a priest died. The whole population of Angrogna were summoned before the Inquisitor in 1448 but his attempt at pacification and conversion were vehemently rejected . He slunk off leaving the people under an Interdict - a meaningless gesture to the Waldensians.

In 1487 Innocent VIII decided to purge the valleys as effectively as Innocent III had done on the plains of Dauphine and Provence. He issued a wide reaching Bull largely about heretics who did not worship as he did - there were few actual charges specified. He appointed Albert Cataneo, Archdeacon of Cremona, his legate and counselled all Catholics to deal with the heretics. In this he offered considerable inducements absolving them of pains and penalties, legitimatised the ownership of property that they might have illegally acquired, remission of all sins if they killed a heretic. In a word, he gave carte blanche even though much of what he offered was not his to give. Many leapt at the offerings including the King of France and the Duke of Savoy, who by the summer of 1488 had gathered an army of 18,000 regular soldiers and several thousand ruffians, thieves and murderers intent of reward and pillage. These formed a two pronged attack, one by France through the valleys of the Alps of Dauphine The second attack led by Cataneo was into the valleys of Piedmont with the intention of meeting in the middle in the Val di Angrogna.

Extirpation showed its face at its ugliest in the Vale of Loyse where the expedition under Lord La Palu caused the populace to flee into the mountains. There they took refuge in an enormous cavern that was nigh impregnable from assault. However, La Palu cleverly had troops descend on ropes from above to secure the front entrance. He then chose not to enter and lose men, but packed the entrance with all available wood and set fire to it. The thick acrid smoke did its job with over 3000 dead, the total population of Loyse, and some 400 infants suffocated in their mother`s arms. The property of the deceased was shared out among the horde of followers and hangers on. Other valleys followed, including Pragelas which had suffered in the cold at Christmas 1386.

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Most sources still place the deaths among the Waldenses in the order of a few thousand, not millions.

Again, the truth is important. If we have charges to make against the papacy, they ought not to be ludicrous lies.

G: Bravus, the 3000 + 400 above is just ONE INCIDENT and the one hundred thousands mentioned also above were JUST from ONE area. Who knows what the real number was? Saying only few thousand suffered at the hands of the Inquisition is just as ludicrous as the charge of 100 million, in my opinion. You cannot have a policy of extirpation and have only a few thousand victims.

[Bravus]

This is an interesting game. You yourself bring evidence of a toll in the order of a few thousand, and in the same post call that claim 'ludicrous'. The whole history of the Waldenses shows that one large incident and a number of more minor incidents in which a few hundred died. If the total toll reached 10,000 I'll eat my hat.

Truth is important.

[John317]

The question is, is what Seventh-day Adventists believe the truth?

Good question.

Originally Posted By: Bravus

I think history would say more about that persecution if it was on the same scale as the Plague...

From wikipedia, regarding just a 20 year period of the persecution--

Quote:

Medieval Christian persecution of heresy

In the medieval period the Roman Catholic Church moved to suppress the Cathar heresy, the Pope having sanctioned a crusade against the Albigensians; during the course of which the massacre of Béziers took place, with between seven and twenty thousand deaths. Papal legate Arnaud Amalric, when asked about how Catholics could be distinguished from Cathars once the city fell, famously replied, "Kill them all, God will know His own.". Over the twenty year period of this campaign an estimated 200,000 to 1,000,000 people were killed.

NOTE: It's reasonable to believe that up to 1 million died in this 20 year period.

Originally Posted By: Bravus

If the total toll reached 10,000 I'll eat my hat.

You hungry? :-)

[Gerr]

This is an interesting game. You yourself bring evidence of a toll in the order of a few thousand, and in the same post call that claim 'ludicrous'. The whole history of the Waldenses shows that one large incident and a number of more minor incidents in which a few hundred died. If the total toll reached 10,000 I'll eat my hat.

Truth is important.

G: Your response came after my post but seems to be addressed to Truthseeker. Was this a response to me or him? And your hat be better made of cake or cookies.

[Bravus]

Sorry, yeah, it was a reply to you: the forum is still broken in terms of where it attributes replies written in the 'Quick Reply' window.

My hat is looking pretty safe, so far...

[Bravus]

The 10,000 figure was in reference to the Waldenses, which is the specific group I was discussing with Gerry. I'm still waiting on evidence on that.

On the Albigenses, the figure is from 200,000 to a million, which is an immense level of uncertainty. It's also possible to argue that that was a war, fought for the usual reasons wars are fought (resources and territory, destroying rivals for those) and that religious persecution was a pretext, but even if we leave that aside, the notion that the papacy killed 50 million is still exceedingly weakly supported. Even if the number in this instance was at the high end of the range, you need another 50 such events...

[Gerr]

Sorry, yeah, it was a reply to you: the forum is still broken in terms of where it attributes replies written in the 'Quick Reply' window.

My hat is looking pretty safe, so far...

G: You don't accept Wylie as a reliable historian? He mentioned "one hundred thousands".