Inquisition

[Bravus]

The hundred thousand was in reference to the Albigenses, we were talking about the Waldenses. I spoke about 10,000 in connection with the Waldenses.

It's possible that as many as a million Christians of various groups were killed by the papacy in that period. That's a *lot* different from 50 million. And the Inquisition was mainly focused on the Jews, much more so than on witches and heretics.

I don't want to be annoying through repetition, but these are grave matters. We ought not to bear false witness against anyone, even the papacy.

[John317]

The hundred thousand was in reference to the Albigenses, we were talking about the Waldenses. I spoke about 10,000 in connection with the Waldenses.

In his book, Rise and Influence of the Spirit of Rationalism in Europe, page 32, William Lecky, a rationalist historian, made this statement:

"That the Church of Rome has shed more innocent blood than any other institution that has ever existed among mankind will be questioned by no Protestant who has a competant knowledge of history."

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/leckytoc.htm

[Gail]

And also... how many in the St. Bartholomew's Massacre in France? That was quite a few for one day, wasn't it?

[Amelia]

Quote:

The massacre began two days after the attempted assassination of Admiral Gaspard de Coligny, the military and political leader of the Huguenots. Starting on 23 August 1572 (the eve of the feast of Bartholomew the Apostle) with murders on orders of the king of a group of Huguenot leaders including Coligny, the massacres spread throughout Paris. Lasting several weeks, the massacre extended to other urban centres and the countryside. Modern estimates for the number of dead vary widely between 5,000 and 30,000 in total.

[John317]

...Truth is important.

Yes, truth is important. The truth is that many millions perished for their faith between the 5th to the 17th centuries. Some historians have estimated that the number was up to 50 million. No one knows the exact number.

Historian William Lecky said that the number of the deaths in the Netherlands alone during the reign of Charles V has been estimated by a very high authority at 50,000, and at least half as many perished under his son. See page 40 of Rise and Influence of the Spirit of Rationalism In Europe.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

But I'd like to know the tune Nero played while Rome was burning..

[John317]

....the notion that the papacy killed 50 million is still exceedingly weakly supported...

The papacy very rarely did those killings directly but left it up to secular governments. The secular governments at that time were under the authority of the Church. People were frequently tried by the Church and then handed over to the states for the sentences to be carried out.

There's also the fact that for every person executed for their faith, thousands were condemned to punishments less severe than death. According to W.E.H. Lecky, the archives of the Spanish Inquisition assures us that by that tribunal alone more than 31,000 person were burned, and more than 290,000 were punished.

[Bravus]

Perhaps the problem is just one of not really having a sense of big numbers. I don't mean that at all as an attack or to be insulting. But as I noted early in the thread, 50 million is something like 10% of the population of the *whole earth* in the time we're talking about - 15% in the earlier sections. Given the people living all over the rest of the world, that would have to be 30-40% of every single living human being in Europe at the time. The claim is being spread over centuries now, so not all at once, but there is nothing like evidence that there was an on-going destruction of 5% of the population per generation or something like that.

Look at it another way: assume 50,000 is correct for the St Barts Day Massacre. You'd need another *500* such massacres to get to 50 million.

I don't want to bandy this around forever, so I guess I'll rest the case - not storming out in a huff, just realising I've said it all several times and am even boring myself by now.

But it *matters*. If a theif steals 5,000 dollars from us but in court we claim he stole 50,000, we perjure ourselves. If the papacy killed 5 million, even, and we claim it was 50 million, we do the same thing. Our credibility is at stake.

[LifeHiscost]

"Psalm 27:5

For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock."

"And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna."Matt 10:28 YLT

God Blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Evidence?

Most sources still place the deaths among the Waldenses in the order of a few thousand, not millions.

Again, the truth is important. If we have charges to make against the papacy, they ought not to be ludicrous lies.

General Eisenhower gave orders to take pictures of the nazi atrocities against the Jews and others, at the end of WWII, paraphrasing the comment, "...or some b-----d in the future will deny it ever happened".

Welcome to the future as observed from other sources not part of this forum.

God blesses!

[Bravus]

General Eisenour gave orders to take pictures of the nazi atrocities against the Jews and others, at the end of WWII, paraphrasing the comment, "...or some b-----d in the future will deny it ever happened".

Welcome to the future as observed from other sources not part of this forum.

God blesses!

Evidence?

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

General Eisenour gave orders to take pictures of the nazi atrocities against the Jews and others, at the end of WWII, paraphrasing the comment, "...or some b-----d in the future will deny it ever happened".

Welcome to the future as observed from other sources not part of this forum.

God blesses!

Evidence?

YOU ARE HERE: HOME / A POLITICAL VIEW / GENERAL EISENHOWER WARNED US

General Eisenhower Warned Us

Posted by Lady Kathleen on October 28, 2009 · 4 Comments

There was an e-mail that I was asked to forward but I decided instead of forwarding it I decided to print it here instead because I thought it was that good. It really makes you think about what is happening in today’s world and how our world is changing by what the politicians!

It is a matter of history that when the Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces, General Dwight Eisenhower, found the victims of the death camps he ordered all possible photographs to be taken, and for the German people from surrounding villages to be ushered through the camps and even made to bury the dead.

He did this because he said in words to this effect:

‘Get it all on record now – get the films – get the witnesses -because somewhere down the road of history some bastard will get up and say that this never happened’

This week, the UK debated whether to remove The Holocaust from its school curriculum because it ‘offends’ the Muslim population which claims it never occurred. It is not removed as yet.. However, this is a frightening portent of the fear that is gripping the world and how easily each country is giving into it.

It is now more than 60 years after the Second World War in Europe ended. This post is in memory of the, 6 million Jews, 20 million Russians, 10 million Christians, and 1,900 Catholic priests who were ‘murdered, raped, burned, starved, beat, experimented on and humiliated’ while the German people looked the other way!

Now, more than ever, with Iran , among others, claiming the Holocaust to be ‘a myth,’ it is imperative to make sure the world never forgets.

How many years will it be before the attack on the World Trade Center ..

‘NEVER HAPPENED’

because it offends some Muslim in the U.S. ???

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FILED UNDER A POLITICAL VIEW · TAGGED WITH ALLIED FORCES, ATTACK ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER, CATHOLIC PRIESTS, DEATH CAMPS, DWIGHT EISENHOWER, GENERAL DWIGHT EISENHOWER, HISTORY, MUSLIM POPULATION, POLITICIANS, PRESIDENT, SCHOOL CURRICULUM, SECOND WORLD WAR, WAR IN EUROPE

God blesses!

[Bravus]

Oh, sorry, I was fine with that bit, and had heard that story before. And I agree, it's a very real problem: among other things, the Holocaust *is* difficult to believe in the sheer level of industrialisation of man's inhumanity to man. Evidence is important.

But I read your post (I may have been mistaken) as saying that I am denying what really happened in terms of papal persecution of believers. On the contrary, I believe the evidence clearly shows that it is the others in the thread who are denying reality, by claiming far greater casualities than there is any evidence to support.

So the analogy seems to be flawed, and it was any evidence you can present for a toll anywhere near 50 million that I was asking about.

[John317]

How many people in Europe do you believe died for their faith between the 5th and the 17th centuries?

[Tom Wetmore]

That the range of "ESTIMATES" for the deaths is so distinctly huge should be strong evidence that even the experts simply do not know. Call it educated guesses, but still GUESSES it is.

There are few if any objective sources of information which makes much of the "history" further suspect. And as can be easily seen from this discussion, the inherent religious bias of the reason we are even focused on this does not help our credibility.

And exaggeration does nothing to help credibility. Those using these questionable "statistics" to reinforce a religious/doctrinal perspective greatly undermine any ability to persuade anyone of the validity of their religious views.

[Tom Wetmore]

How many people in Europe do you believe died for their faith between the 5th and the 17th centuries?

I will let Bravus answer for himself, but here is how I would answer that question: A goodly number, more or less.

But isn't the more important point to ask ourselves, if confronted with that ultimate choice, would I be willing to die for my faith? That others have, no matter how many or how few, does not matter when the choice confronts each one of us.

[skyblue888]

Is Bravus the authority on how many people suffered or died at the hand of the first beast of Rev.13? The "50 million or more" figure is for the whole of the 1260 years of papal supremacy, and not merely for a century.

sky

[Gerr]

Evidence?

G: While I am not wedded to any specific number like 50 - 100 million victims, where is your evidence for believing: "The Wikipedia article suggests total deaths on the order of 2-3,000 and that seems reasonable given the historical evidence?" Only 2-3000 victims where a policy of extermination was carried out for generations? Your own Wikipedia source had this figure in Spain ALONE:

Quote:

García Cárcel estimates that the total number processed by the Inquisition throughout its history was approximately 150,000. Applying the percentages of executions that appeared in the trials of 1560–1700 — about 2% — the approximate total would be about 3,000 put to death. Nevertheless, very probably this total should be raised keeping in mind the data provided by Dedieu and García Cárcel for the tribunals of Toledo and Valencia, respectively. It is likely that the total would be between 3,000 and 5,000 executed.

However, it is impossible to determine the precision of this total, and owing to the gaps in documentation, it is unlikely that the exact number will ever be known.

That's because after you've killed so many, you lose count. Besides, who was counting anyway?

[John317]

...isn't the more important point to ask ourselves, if confronted with that ultimate choice, would I be willing to die for my faith? That others have, no matter how many or how few, does not matter when the choice confronts each one of us.

Sure. But it begins by dying every day to our own wills and desires and putting God first now-- being more concerned with what God thinks than what people think.

[LifeHiscost]

Oh, sorry, I was fine with that bit, and had heard that story before. And I agree, it's a very real problem: among other things, the Holocaust *is* difficult to believe in the sheer level of industrialisation of man's inhumanity to man. Evidence is important.

But I read your post (I may have been mistaken) as saying that I am denying what really happened in terms of papal persecution of believers. On the contrary, I believe the evidence clearly shows that it is the others in the thread who are denying reality, by claiming far greater casualities than there is any evidence to support.

So the analogy seems to be flawed, and it was any evidence you can present for a toll anywhere near 50 million that I was asking about.

When it is clearly evident of the millions who died in the short span of time, probably including somewhere between 1934 and 1945, it does not seem difficult to conclude that between the 5th and the 17th centuries, 50,000,000 would be a conservative number of deaths, for since Cain slew Adam until now, man has not seemed deficient in the capacity to learn new and more rapid methods to destroy enmass, all those who will not bend to their particular mores, considering when push comes to shove, all except those who yield to the gentle Jesus will put their own interests before even those closest to their own selves.

That doesn't necessarily mean there is enough evidence to arrive at "truth" for some, just as the actions of those jumping from the top floors of the World Trade Center, didn't indicate fear as their bodies flailed in the wind, instead of joy as their flight was so effortless and exhilarating.

It might also be worthy of note, it took the Rawandans only 100

days to murder almost, I believe it was almost a million was it not, in that short span of time. And all without automatic weaponry.

Imagine what a segment of society might accomplish in human destruction with a dedicated purpose of slaughter of those not prepared for defense, and as victims of the wickedness of others, many not really believing others of their own kind could possibly exert such malevolence.

God blesses!

[Gail]

And an "Off with their head" form of justice was in good standing during the Middle Ages. While the Papacy reigned, one was doing the country a favour as well as the church and the laws of the land covered man's conscience and thought.

There were exceptions, though, I realise that- pockets of supportive rulers which helped the Reformation. But it really was a tyrannical situation.

Those who were not of the Catholic faith were also guilty of persecution, thinking of England...

[Gail]

That's because after you've killed so many, you lose count. Besides, who was counting anyway?

Yep! I wonder how many times that was said at that period!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Just a tag on....

Can anyone tell me why there is a concern about these numbers? Is there a reason why the subject is being brought up? Is there supposed to be a mesage in here somewhere?

None of the above seem to be readily apparant at this point...I need a clue..maybe a black and white!!

EXACTLY the wonderings going through my mind, CoA!!!

[John317]

There are Seventh-day Adventist publications which speak of 50 million martyrs. One such publication states that "it is conservatively estimated that during the Middle Ages, 50,000,000 martyrs perished under the Papal sword. For centuries the soil of Europe was crimsoned with martyr blood. Great armies were raised and crusades were launched for the sole purpose of exterminating the so-called 'heretics.'"

The above was publisehd by the Australasian Conference of SDAs.

[Bravus]

And I've explained clearly and explicitly why I think it matters. God has commanded that we not bear false witness. We need to be serious about telling the truth.