Christmas trees

[Kevin H]

Perhaps you need to do a bit of singing, Laz....

I ran accross a little diddley while working in my hospital..It's for the nurses, but it might be a good thing for the congregation....Song to the tune of "O' Tauntibaum, O Tauntibam" [O' Christmas Tree, O Christmas Tree"

O Ativan, O Ativan

How many are thy uses....

O Ativan, O Ativan

You can lead to abuses

How great at sleepy time

Even when the patients whine

O Ativan , O Ativan

How many are thy uses....

you know, Laz, when it gets a bit stressful in the hospital, we joke about a valum salt lick....Sometimes I wonder if church congregations don't need it from time to time...[For those who might want to know, a "lick" is a reference to cattle and herding...a salt lick is used for the herds nutritional status]

I love it!!! Of course don't forget the Ativan aerosol as every other sprinkler head should be.

[GoLions]

Help me understand this topic. If we don't have a christmas tree then we are not good Seventh Day Adventists?

What the roots of a tradition are, are not important?

I did not grow up in an Adventist home. I was a Sunday keeper. When my eyes were opened to the Sabbath, it was a life altering thing. I was forced to question everything I thought was right. Was the sky actually blue? Christmas is a lie. Now how do you deal with that? I mean how do I deal with that? Do I go around and pretend it isn't? Can I now be ignorant, can I unlearn what I have learned, nope, I can't.

My wife and kids are into the whole christmas thing. We have a tree, we have lights outside and inside. There is no doubt that when you walk into our house, that it is the christmas season.

How do I justify all of this? I have bigger battles to fight. The message about the 10 Commandments and the nearness of Jesus 2nd Advent need to be proclaimed. Every tool in our shed should be used for this purpose. Whether you have a tree or don't, you should use it to the furthering of the Gospel.

Don't berate people because they don't have a tree, that is not right, mean in fact.

[phkrause]

Help me understand this topic. If we don't have a christmas tree then we are not good Seventh Day Adventists?

What the roots of a tradition are, are not important?

I did not grow up in an Adventist home. I was a Sunday keeper. When my eyes were opened to the Sabbath, it was a life altering thing. I was forced to question everything I thought was right. Was the sky actually blue? Christmas is a lie. Now how do you deal with that? I mean how do I deal with that? Do I go around and pretend it isn't? Can I now be ignorant, can I unlearn what I have learned, nope, I can't.

My wife and kids are into the whole christmas thing. We have a tree, we have lights outside and inside. There is no doubt that when you walk into our house, that it is the christmas season.

How do I justify all of this? I have bigger battles to fight. The message about the 10 Commandments and the nearness of Jesus 2nd Advent need to be proclaimed. Every tool in our shed should be used for this purpose. Whether you have a tree or don't, you should use it to the furthering of the Gospel.

Don't berate people because they don't have a tree, that is not right, mean in fact.

great post.

[John317]

What you say is true, GoLions.

[Neil D]

Help me understand this topic. If we don't have a christmas tree then we are not good Seventh Day Adventists?

What the roots of a tradition are, are not important?

I did not grow up in an Adventist home.

[snip]

Don't berate people because they don't have a tree, that is not right, mean in fact.

Exactly...

There are some adventists who will publish thier 'findings' that a traditional commercialized Christmas is wrong....and they could be right. But is it right to swing your personal cultural traditions the other way?

What about those niggardly Adventists who will point out that the Xmas tree has roots that are totally pagan. Personally, I have never really understood these people who trim thier pocketbooks by declaring that gifting one another, like the wisemen of old, is wrong...when clearly the bible records that presents were given by wisemen ....a tradition that everyone really likes... way down deep.

And there are some adventists who will make a case against having any Xmas Tree....Well, what's wrong putting up a tree as a family activity? It's a time where family members get some insight into other family members. [i'm big into building relationships]..Of course, if you are

the lone person putting up the tree, well..that's ok too....some traditions are good to keep, even alone....

There are several things to concider during this time of year. What is the reason for the season? ..... how do you celebrate a birthday for God? How do you think He would like you to celebrate it? Do you want to celebrate it? While it might be a bit odd, there's nothing that says that you HAVE to celebrate Christmas....

Which is the right thing to do?

Well, go with your heart...Have a long prayer with your Lord and talk with your wife...There are some good traditions that you guys might see that are good to continue during this Xmas season.

Oh,...and ignore the rest of the naysayers....YOU develop what YOU feel is right....Who knows....I might just adopt it next year as a good tradition to keep....

[nuff sed]

There are 'good Seventh-day Adventists' that celebrate Christmas with a vengance. There are good Seventh-day Adventists who don't. There are 'good' Seventh-day Adventists who take showers on Sabbath morning. There are 'good' Seventh-day Adventists who don't. There are 'good Seventh-day Adventists who have Sex on the Sabbath. There are 'good' Seventh-day Adventists who don't. There are 'good' Seventh-day Adventists who go out to eat on the Sabbath. There are 'good' Seventh-day Adventists who don't. I had better quit...and I am just getting warmed up. Do you see how foolish it all looks when you write it down. Which of the above will keep you out of The Kingdom and which will guarantee you a place??? Not a bit. Why don't we concentrate on our relationship with Jesus and one another instead of nitpicking? Nuff sed

[GFruge]

I'm sorry that this has to be my 1st post here. I was looking for a place to introduce myself, but couldn't pass up this topic.

I, like others have mentioned, come from outside of the church, Catholic to be exact. Needless to say, I didn't know anything about what the bible taught and why I practiced the things that I did. Since then, I've come to truth and to have a relationship with Christ.

I think there's a specific reason that there is no date as to the birth of Christ. It's because the Old Testament, specifically found in Daniel is that he was going to come in a certain year. What's most important is that we understand that he died and was resurrected. Again, no date specified. It's because it's supposed to be in our hearts and not on the calendar. We're supposed to celebrate His coming, death, and resurrection everyday of our life.

Specifically in regards to Christmas. I truly think it depends on our knowledge of History and Scripture. Also, another dimension would include our personal relationship with Christ and our Christian walk. Some are babies in the faith and others eating meat. We should never discourage anyone, but yet rather be their friends and show them what the bible says and let Christ work on their hearts to convict them or not. It's not our duty to tell them what to believe or not. We can only show them what the Scripture says and live accordingly as an example unto the world.

Personally, I believe that Christmas is just another day of the year, nothing special. History tells me that December 25 was a celebrated day for Pagan Gods, similar to Sunday worship. The Bible tells me that there was an issue where people worshipped trees and it was an insult to God.

My wife and many others are very fond of Christmas. I will never take that away from her or anyone. If some tells me Merry Christmas, I'll happily greet them back with the same. My wife asked me to hang Christmas lights on the house and I did so. Only Christ knows our hearts and our positions. We're not here to regulate the world, only to be an example to others and fulfill the Christian duty of preaching the Gospel. Be a friend and not an enemy. There are much stronger topics to educate people on.

I'll never trade the Adventist faith for any other ever, but I see that the same old spirit of the Pharasees still lives today. A tree will not send you to heaven or hell, but if that tree becomes your God / Idol, then you're in violation of the Law.

[John317]

Welcome to the Adventist Forum, GFruge.

And thank you for your post. You have a lot of good thoughts there that we need to consider seriously. I personally feel the same way you do about the Adventist faith.

[Guest]

There are 'good Seventh-day Adventists' that celebrate Christmas with a vengance. There are good Seventh-day Adventists who don't. There are 'good' Seventh-day Adventists who take showers on Sabbath morning. There are 'good' Seventh-day Adventists who don't. There are 'good Seventh-day Adventists who have Sex on the Sabbath. There are 'good' Seventh-day Adventists who don't. There are 'good' Seventh-day Adventists who go out to eat on the Sabbath. There are 'good' Seventh-day Adventists who don't. I had better quit...and I am just getting warmed up. Do you see how foolish it all looks when you write it down. Which of the above will keep you out of The Kingdom and which will guarantee you a place??? Not a bit. Why don't we concentrate on our relationship with Jesus and one another instead of nitpicking? Nuff sed

So in other words, it doesn't matter what we do on the Sabbath, it's all irrelevant. Right? I wonder what you would say is a bad Seventh Day Adventist? Is it the name that saves us? The SDA who has no real relationship with Jesus. Still good?

It is that relationship that makes the difference in how we treat the Sabbath etc. Which is why Jesus said: By their fruits.......

[Neil D]

So in other words, it doesn't matter what we do on the Sabbath, it's all irrelevant. Right? I wonder what you would say is a bad Seventh Day Adventist? Is it the name that saves us? The SDA who has no real relationship with Jesus. Still good?

It is that relationship that makes the difference in how we treat the Sabbath etc. Which is why Jesus said: By their fruits.......

Um...excuse me, but the topic is about CHRISTMAS TREES....not about Sabbath.....

Do we really want to highjack this thread with a defferent subject...??

I'm just askin'.................

[GFruge]

My question to all......

How many of you are going to use the "Christmas Tree", whether for it or against it, to witness the Gospel to someone.

Looks beyond the tree and see the fruits (commission).

John317,

Thanks for the warm welcome.

[Overaged]

For the record, some of us who may be a bit critical in this topic are not really berating *everyone* who does not have a tree. There are some, who are described in general terms, as *strict* Adventists, and who have been and are very condemning towards people who do have a tree and such; it is those whom we have come down harder on, and I would presume this is what Stan is talking about. I know thats what I have been talking about. Some who act so strongly against this do not seem like Adventists to me. They do not even come close to resembling one. I don't see anything wrong with saying that. Adventist beliefs do not teach such a thing as the wild condemnation of all things Christmas.

I really liked what you said re using every tool in our shed to proclaim the gospel! That is so true! My wife and I were just talking about this and we would actually not even bother with all this tree stuff if it didn't mean so much to others that we know and love, or that are our neighbors. Certainly; it does matter about the origins of something, but so does where it actually is now, and most people do not attach any kinds of meaning to Christmas that is connected to *the original meaning.* Christmas has become an excellent opportunity to know and help others, an opportunity we won't find the rest of the year. That is the wave that we, *who have the truth* should surf.

Quote:

Charity "doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil." Christ-like love places the most favorable construction on the motives and acts of others. It does not needlessly expose their faults; it does not listen eagerly to unfavorable reports, but seeks rather to bring to mind the good qualities of others. {AA 319.2}

[Guest]

I don't put one up, simply because there is no need. I have no children. Right now nobody lives here but me and Mr. Murphy. And his relationship with trees is one that I don't want carried inside.

Besides I don't celebrate Christmas here. I go to my sister's house.

[Guest]

Do we really want to highjack this thread with a defferent subject...??

I'm just askin'.................

No I don't. I responded to Nuff sed before I even noticed what thread.

[Woody]

Quote:

How many of you are going to use the "Christmas Tree", whether for it or against it, to witness the Gospel to someone.

When someone comes to my house ... they see the tree and say "Oh you must be a Christian". This is the opening for me to witness to them about the true meaning of Christmas.

[Guest]

I know people who put up a tree every year, and the thought has never crossed my mind that they must be Christian. Don't be one of those.

[Woody]

Quote:

Because it's missing in some SDnA's!!!!!

lol

lol

lol

Good one there CoA

[Woody]

I know people who put up a tree every year, and the thought has never crossed my mind that they must be Christian. Don't be one of those.

Well ... I have yet to have people come to my home , see our tree, and say "Oh you must be pagan". :)

[FLO]

Not really sure what was being done 3000 years ago on December 25

This might give you a bit of an idea...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIEHCA1PaL0

[Neil D]

Why is Amy's eyebrows brown but her hair is blonde?

Isn't that some sort of ...well, defacing the image of God in her? If she is out to ruin the beauty of God's creation, why should we believe her or anything else she reports? She's living a lie and therefore, all that she says is true, is a lie to some degree....Just as she lies about her God given beauty, she must lie about anything that she is reporting on....Anyone who defaces God's creation can't be trusted....

....and anyone who purports that she is telling the truth, casts serious doubt upon thier devotion to Jesus Christ...

..

[tongue is seriously emplanted in cheek ]

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted By: Kevin H

Not really sure what was being done 3000 years ago on December 25

This might give you a bit of an idea...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIEHCA1PaL0

1. Why did you take me out of context? I know what was happening about 2,000 years ago on or about December 25 where in Jewish towns such as Nazareth, little Jewish children were not having a major celebration, but still celebrated the birth of Issac, the primised child.

2 I know what they were doing 3,000 and 4,000 years ago on Yom Kipper, and Passover etc, you video may give you a bit of an idea.

[Kevin H]

Please let me edit the "They" in point 2 above, except for maybe a little bit dring times of aposticy, I know what the Canaanites were doing on those days 3 and 4 thousand years ago. 3,000 years ago the Hebrews had a modified celebration where those more horifying aspects were strictly banned.

I also have to admit having nightmeres all night about posting this as sadly there have been many people who find their faith shaken as they study these in college classes or archaeology textbooks. The problem is that too often we don't have faith in God and the Bible, but our faith is based on what we expect God to be like and what we expect the Bible to say. We need to have faith in God and trust the Bible even when it does not meet our expectations. Satan has 2 major methods of attack; Encouraging us to just be secular and not have interest in religion; or to make us very interested in religion but to offer an approach to God and the Bible that is not fair to the facts hoping that when we discover them that we will hold on to our views and give up on God and the Bible because God and the Bible does not meet our expectations.

For God so loved the world, that he would work with us where we are. Like Jesus at the wedding where the drink ran out and could have just given a health message on the benifits of pure water; he worked with giving them the drink they were use to having for the occasion. God works with us where we are. The Bible walks a very thin line between being critical of things that are harmful for our spiritual growth, very critical of syncritism; yet showing respect for our trying to deal with life and our cultures and background. The Hebrews before the exile kept having difficulty crossing the line and tempted to flirt some with idolitry and these forbidden practices. After the exile they ended up sinning by being too sepperate from the rest of the world. We also need to learn how to work with both aspects and not let Satan trip us up on one ditch or the other.

[Dr. Shane]

Christmas is a reality. Much like Halloween and Easter. All three of these holidays have pagan *roots*. The church has to decide how to deal with these realities. Do we ignore this part of our culture? Do we declare them sinful? Do we celebrate them like the rest of society does? Or do we celebrate them in such a way that we bring honor and glory to God?

Regarding Christmas, Ellen White clearly takes the position that we should use it to bring glory to God. She even endorses the Christmas tree but not in the same fashion as the world. A Christmas tree can be decorated with offerings to be given to a needy cause. In the Mexican church we attend, they have a Christmas tree on the platform up front. They hand out Christmas envelopes with a little hook so that offerings can be placed inside and hung on the tree. During part of the service, they invite members to come up front and hang their gratitude offerings on the tree. (The church treasurer later removes them before the end of the service.)

In our family we look for ways to give. We have worked in kitchens feeding those dealing with substance abuse. We have sang in nursing homes. We have went singing door to door, collecting offerings for Adventist Community Services. We have collected used toys for poor Mexican children. We don't try to mimic the world and how it celebrates the holiday. We made Christmas ornaments out of clay that hold coins we can place on our tree at home. Christmas highlights what we should be doing all year long.