Is it ok to drink alcohol...?

[Guest]

If she was alive today, she would no doubt abandon much of her ideas...

What a convenient way to make her writings of none effect.

The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. "Where there is no vision, the people perish." Proverbs 29:18. Satan will work ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies, to unsettle the confidence of God's remnant people in the true testimony. {FLB 296}

[Bravus]

She claimed to have been given visions about the shut door.

[John317]

Actually, it was the visions that led Ellen White to give up the "shut door" doctrine.

There is absolutely no valid evidence that she was given a vision supporting the "shut door" as it was popularly understood at that time.

All you have are unsubstantiated reports by people such as the one you quoted. If you want to take his word for it, go ahead.

Of course she had wrong private opinions, just as all the prophets of God had. But that is very different from saying that God showed her visions that supported the wrong opinions.

[John317]

She claimed to have been given visions about the shut door.

But what did she say about those visions? And what do they teach about the shut door?

[John317]

I feel sorry for the people living in our time who give up their confidence in the Spirit of prophecy. They will be like a ship without a sail or a rudder, at the mercy of the current and the wind. And there will be every wind of doctrine blowing through our church, even more than there is now.

[fccool]

What a convenient way to make her writings of none effect.

The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. "Where there is no vision, the people perish." Proverbs 29:18. Satan will work ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies, to unsettle the confidence of God's remnant people in the true testimony. {FLB 296}

What a convenient way to make anyone who disagrees with you to be "deceived by Satan"

[Bravus]

Check Point 5 on this White Estate page: http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/shutdoor.html

[John317]

...If she was alive today, she would no doubt abandon much of her ideas...

for example, that masturbation causes blindness and insanity.

She never claimed that masturbation always causes blindness and insaniity. God showed her visions in which was was given views of the immoral condition of the church, especially of the young people, and masturbation was among those things that were mentioned as a serious problem. I know that masturbation can be a cause of immorality and lack of true spirtuality. Ellen White was right about that.

She was right about many things long before science caught up with the visions that God gave to her about health. Those who practiced her counsels on health were never sorry. Personally I wish I had practiced her counsels not only on masturbation but on diet, sugar, caffeine, and alcohol. All of those things changed my life for the worse from the time I was a early teen until only about 5 or 6 years ago.

[John317]

Check Point 5 on this White Estate page: http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/shutdoor.html

Quote:

5. December, 1844--In Ellen Harmon's First Vision, She Was Shown that the Door of Mercy Was Shut for (a) Those Millerites Who Denied That God Had Led Them in the 1844 "Midnight Cry" Movement, and ( "All the Wicked World" Which God Had Rejected. She Was Also Shown "The Living Saints, 144,000 in Number," Waiting for Christ's Return.

While praying at the family altar, the Holy Ghost fell on me, and I seemed to be rising higher and higher, far above the dark world. I turned to look for the Advent people in the world, but could not find them--when a voice said to me, "Look again, and look a little higher." At this I raised my eyes and saw a straight and narrow path, cast up high above the world. On this path the Advent people were travelling to the City, which was at the farther end of the path. They had a bright light set up behind them at the first end of the path, which an angel told me was the Midnight Cry. This light shone all along the path, and gave light for their feet so they might not stumble. And if they kept their eyes fixed on Jesus, who was just before them, leading them to the City, they were safe. But soon some grew weary, and they said the City was a great way off, and they expected to have entered it before. Then Jesus would encourage them by raising his glorious right arm, and from his arm came a glorious light which waved over the Advent band, and they shouted Hallelujah! Others rashly denied the light behind them, and said that it was not God that had led them out so far. The light behind them went out leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and got their eyes off the mark and lost sight of Jesus, and fell off the path down in the dark and wicked world below. It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again and go to the City, as all the wicked world which God had rejected. They fell all the way along the path one after another, until we heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus' coming. The living saints, 144,000 in number, knew and understood the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder and an earthquake. When God spake the time, he poured on us the Holy Ghost, and our faces began to light up and shine with the glory of God as Moses' did when he came down from Mount Sinai.--Ellen G. White, A Word to the Little Flock, p. 14.

Ellen Harmon's first vision was published initially by Enoch Jacobs in the Cincinnati Day-Star of January 24, 1846, then republished by James White on April 6, 1846, in the broadside, "To the Little Remnant Scattered Abroad." On May 30, 1847, it was published yet again by James White in the pamphlet, A Word to the Little Flock (available in facsimile form at any Adventist Book Center).

Sure, Bravus. This is well known. But the point is here that she never wrote that God showed her invision that the door of salvation was shut against the whole world. It was shut against those who heard the Millerite message and believed it and then forsook it, saying that it was not from God. That part of "the shut door" was correct. But that is far different from what some people falsely claim Ellen White wrote. They claim that Ellen White said God showed her that her view of the Shut Door at that time was correct, that human probabtion was closed. But there is absolutely no evidence that she wrote or said this, and in fact, she herself denied it in writing. What it comes down to is deciding whether or we will believe a rumor whether we will believe Ellen White.

During Ellen White life, there were literally thousands of false rumors circulating about her. If she had denied all of them in writing, she never would have had time to do much else. She would have been kept busy just answering the attacks against her. So she finally stopped responding to them, except to a few which she considered the most serious.

[Bravus]

Can't dismiss it that lightly, though.

This means the visions are fallible.

The implications of that are HUGE for all of Adventism.

[John317]

But you first need to show that her vision that is described there is wrong. What was wrong with it?

She never claimed, though,that she or the visions as she wrote them were infallible. God alone is infallible, and anything human is fallible. That is no surprise, or at least it shouldn't be. The Bible is an infallible guide, but it contains some insignificant errors. Ellen White's writings contain some errors of a rather technical nature also. But if people require an infallible source of authority or an infallible prophet of God in which to place their confidence, they will never have confidence in a prophet because no one who is infallible will ever exist this side of the second coming.

[Bravus]

But you first need to show that her vision that is described there is wrong. What was wrong with it?

The vision says 'all the wicked world' is lost without hope of redemption. That is simply wrong.

[John317]

God showed Ellen White over 2,000 visions and dreams from 1844 to 1913. Most of them were not for anyone but members of the Remnant church. They're for our spiritual protection, & not to do us harm. God wants His people to know where they are in relation to the events that are to happen just before the second coming. Jesus sent many warnings to His modern church through His chosen messenger. He did the same in ancient times, sending unheeded warnings to the ancient Israelites whose bodies were buried in the desert beause they rebelled against God's prophet and so were unprepared to go into the Promised Land.

It is one thing to be competely ignorant of Ellen White's writings and to have no opportunity to study them, but it is altogether different to know about them and to reject them, yet expect God to protect us against deception which we would be prepared for if only we studied and believed the Testimonies. To do that would be like rejecting the Bible while asking God to guide us.

Ellen White wrote about what will happen to Seventh-day Adventists who reject the light God has given us through her writings. With greater light comes greater responsibilities, and if these responsibilities are denied, the light goes out. Yet when the light goes out, although the darkness will be profound, the dark will seem as great light to those who are deceived.

[John317]

The vision says 'all the wicked world' is lost without hope of redemption. That is simply wrong.

Let's read that line again:

"It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again and go to the City, as all the wicked world which God had rejected."

It clearly is not saying that God had rejected the whole world, because Ellen White is writing about people in the world who are being led by the Holy Spirit.

"All the wicked world," therefore, refers to those who had rejected the message of salvation that had come to them during the course of the Millerite Movement. These had gotten off the path and could not get back on. They are "the whole wicked world" that God had rejected. She is not counting among "the whole wicked world" those people who hadn't even heard the message of salvation.

This part of the "shut door" was true. Those who had been convicted by the Holy Spriti of the truth and then later turned against it had effectively closed their probabtion. For them the door was shut.

[doug yowell]

Tea, coffee, tobacco, and alcohol we must present as sinful indulgences. We cannot place on the same ground, meat, eggs, butter, cheese, and such articles placed upon the table. These are not to be borne in front, as the burden of our work. The former--tea, coffee, tobacco, beer, wine, and all spirituous liquors--are not to be taken moderately, but discarded.--3SM 287 (1881). {LDE 81.1}

True temperance teaches us to dispense entirely with everything hurtful and to use judiciously that which is healthful.--PP 562 (1890). {LDE 81.2}

Whatever injures the health not only lessens physical vigor but tends to weaken the mental and moral powers. Indulgence in any unhealthful practice makes it more difficult for one to discriminate between right and wrong and hence more difficult to resist evil.--MH 128 (1905). {LDE 81.4}

Not to keep the EGW door revolving but what Biblical principles do these admonitions violate? Can we Biblically advocate that only gluttony and drunkeness should be avoided by Christians? Is there no thread of common sense and reason here?

[doug yowell]

Doug, I think one can "uphold" the lifestyle without having to be silent on the issue. When asked about the SDA stance on alcohol and caffeine I give the churches position. I do not try to downplay the churches stance by bringing my Mountain Dew to potluck. However, in my house and in my daily life I choose to indulge in something that I believe is not a sin. Is it the best thing for me? No. Is it going to keep me from heaven-I don't believe it will. While I respect EGW and the contribution she has made to our church I do not believe that her interpretations of the bible are without error. I do not believe that the bible supports her point of view. As a SDA, I understand that bible comes before SOP and if their is ever a question we are to go with the bible.

But doesn't your conscience ever remind you that you promised (before many witnesses I presume)not to indulge in those things? And now you are taking it back? Did you have your fingers crossed when you made those baptisimal vows?

[Bravus]

Doug: truth matters. If we make claims about what the Bible says that are not true, we bring both ourselves and the Bible into disrepute.

We can be honest about the harms of various things, and can clearly testify about why we choose to abstain from them ourselves.

But we must at all times and at all costs be unafraid of the truth.

[doug yowell]

Doug: truth matters. If we make claims about what the Bible says that are not true, we bring both ourselves and the Bible into disrepute.

We can be honest about the harms of various things, and can clearly testify about why we choose to abstain from them ourselves.

But we must at all times and at all costs be unafraid of the truth.

I agree.

[Dr. Shane]

The vision says 'all the wicked world' is lost without hope of redemption. That is simply wrong.

I don't think you fully understand how God communicated with Ellen White in vision. It wasn't like a human conversation where she could come back and report word for word what God had told her. She had to take God's message and put it into human words. Being a fallible person herself, she was subject to doing that task in an imperfect manner. Just because she did not convey the message properly doesn't mean the message didn't come from God.

Ellen White's authenticity is clearly shown in that if one follows her teachings they will end up worshiping the Biblical Christ and in a saving relationship with Him. That is in contrast to cultist religions like Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Scientology, etc. If Ellen White was a false prophet her teachings would lead one away from the Biblical Christ and not to Him.

The problem is when we try to take every word she wrote as if it came from the mouth of God. We shouldn't even read the Bible like that and Ellen White is not on the same level as a Biblical author. With the Bible, the message is inspired, not the exact wording chosen by the prophet. Ellen White's purpose was to direct people to the Bible, not replace it.

[John317]

Yes, I believe there is.

It is a principle that I am only just recently beginning to see more clearly in my own personal life. It is based on 1 Cor. 3: 16-17:

1 Cor. 3:16-17

Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? [17] If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

The principle is that we should not see how close we can come to destroying God's temple and still remain relatively healthy, but we are to do all that we can to keep our body temples in the best possible condition. The Holy Spirit is telling us that just as the Shekinah glory of God inhabited the Holy Place in the tabernacle and the Temple, so the Holy Spirit indwells the believer, our bodies become holy and care must be taken not to defile them in any manner whatsoever.

A major reason for this principle is that there is a close relationship between the health of our bodies and our spiritual health. The Third Angels Messages calls for us to give God glory and worship the One who made us. Giving God glory and worshipping Him is not possible if we are not "holy." It means being toally separate from sin, not seeing how close to sin we can come without being damaged or defiled by it. In short, it requires that we do everything we can to increase our health and be clear-minded so we can discern the voice of God speaking to us, saying, 'This is the way, walk ye in it."

Leviticus 20: 26:

You shall be holy to me, for I the Lord am holy and have separated you from the peoples, that you should be mine.

Hebrews 8:10

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel

after those days, declares the Lord:

I will put my laws into their minds,

and write them on their hearts,

and I will be their God,

and they shall be my people.

3 John 1:2

Beloved, I pray that all may go well with you and that you may be in good health, as it goes well with your soul.

[LifeHiscost]

All of those things changed my life for the worse from the time I was a early teen until only about 5 or 6 years ago.

Ahhh can't we be grateful that each night we can meet before the throne of grace with our Master and lay those things at His feet, asking for mercy and forgiveness, and at that moment His blood is applied to the washing of our souls and the saving of our lives for His Kingdom.

"...nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.” Luke 17:21 NKJV

"If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action]."1 John 1:9 AMP parenthesis brackets their's LHC

"Who is a God like You,

Pardoning iniquity

And passing over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage?

He does not retain His anger forever,

Because He delights in mercy.

He will again have compassion on us,

And will subdue our iniquities.

You will cast all our sins

Into the depths of the sea.

You will give truth to Jacob

And mercy to Abraham,

Which You have sworn to our fathers

From days of old. "Micah 7:18-20 NKJV

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Can't dismiss it that lightly, though.

This means the visions are fallible.

The implications of that are HUGE for all of Adventism.

No more than ascribing to the fact that the Holy Scripture is not inerrant. Will an acknowledgment of that cause me to cast aside the book God has chosen as His greatest source for revealing Himself. Our faith should be in the God Who chooses to reveal Himself through the Word, the Spirit of Prophecy, and through His prophets, not the inerrancy of the vessels used.

Abraham, the Father of the faithful, at one time was a liar. King David at one time was a murderer and adulterer. Noah at one time was drunk, and some bible scholars have said, incestuous.

Our faith is in Jesus, not in the vessel(s)through whom He chooses to reveal Himself.

Those who have passed through a struggle to rise above the realm of doubt and conjecture, realize that "while God has given ample evidence for faith, He will never remove all excuse for unbelief. All who look for hooks to hang their doubts upon, will find them. And those who refuse to accept and obey God's Word until every objection has been removed, and there is no longer an opportunity for doubt, will never come to the light."--Great Controversy, p. 527. (Italics author's.) {9MR 204.1}

As with the Bible, so with the Testimonies. "Those who desire to doubt will have plenty of room. God does not propose to remove all occasion for unbelief. He gives evidence, which must be carefully investigated with a humble mind and a teachable spirit; and all should decide from the weight of evidence."--Testimonies for the Church, Volume 3, p. 255 (Italics author's.) {9MR 204.2}

"Satan is at hand to suggest a variety of doubts; but if you will open your eyes in faith, you will find sufficient evidence for belief. But God will never remove from any man all causes for doubts. . . . {9MR 204.3}

"God gives sufficient evidence for the candid mind to believe; but he who turns from the weight of evidence because there are a few things which he cannot make plain to his finite understanding, will be left in the cold, chilling atmosphere of unbelief and questioning doubts, and will make shipwreck of faith."--Testimonies for the Church, Volume 4, pp. 232, 233. (Italics author's.)

God blesses!

[shelly]

Originally Posted By: shelly

Doug, I think one can "uphold" the lifestyle without having to be silent on the issue. When asked about the SDA stance on alcohol and caffeine I give the churches position. I do not try to downplay the churches stance by bringing my Mountain Dew to potluck. However, in my house and in my daily life I choose to indulge in something that I believe is not a sin. Is it the best thing for me? No. Is it going to keep me from heaven-I don't believe it will. While I respect EGW and the contribution she has made to our church I do not believe that her interpretations of the bible are without error. I do not believe that the bible supports her point of view. As a SDA, I understand that bible comes before SOP and if their is ever a question we are to go with the bible.

But doesn't your conscience ever remind you that you promised (before many witnesses I presume)not to indulge in those things? And now you are taking it back? Did you have your fingers crossed when you made those baptisimal vows?

No, I do't have any problems with my conscience. The promise made was based on misleading facts that are not biblical. Any contract made under fraud is not legal or binding.

[doug yowell]

No, I do't have any problems with my conscience. The promise made was based on misleading facts that are not biblical. Any contract made under fraud is not legal or binding.

Have you notified the church of this?

[fccool]

And what would that accomplish?