Is it ok to drink alcohol...?

[fccool]

There are many non-SDA and even non-Christians who come to this Forum to see what Adventists talk about and how they act towards each other. What ideas and impressions are they taking away with them?

A non-SDA relative of mine dropped by to visit the Forum a few weeks ago. She hasn't told me what her impression was and I haven't asked her. I'm almost afraid to.

I have an uncle who just started to keep the Sabbath and go to an SDA church for worship. I used to think of inviting him to the Forum, but I've decided against it. He's 93, the son of an SDA pastor and evangelist, and I wouldn't want him to see the things that he would see on this Forum. I'm afraid it would confuse and disillusion him. He would read SDAs making fun of other SDAs, ridiculing God's prophet, attacking the Bible, and teaching just about every form of false doctrine there is. He would probably think our church is really in a sad spiritual condition and go back to being a Baptist.

1) Do you think God thinks of SDA Christians as "better Christians?

2) Why would you think that being a Baptist is worse than being an SDA in context of God's grace and salvation?

If you look back and see how Jews behaved and carried themselves and talked about themselves... and how SDAs behave today... similarities are amazing!

[Overaged]

I have an uncle who just started to keep the Sabbath and go to an SDA church for worship. I used to think of inviting him to the Forum, but I've decided against it. He's 93, the son of an SDA pastor and evangelist, and I wouldn't want him to see the things that he would see on this Forum. I'm afraid it would confuse and disillusion him.

Why not John? Invite him here and show him what he will find in most churches today. (including all denominations).

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bramwell_Welch

Not exactly an unbiased fellow...Welch is the founder of Welches Grape Juice, Welches Jams and Jellies, and other Welches fruit juices.

And Welches products were used as the advertising media for that old satanic series, "The Flintstones."

Strikes me funny. Sorry. I know I have a bizarre sense of humor that nobody shares.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: fccool

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bramwell_Welch

Not exactly an unbiased fellow...Welch is the founder of Welches Grape Juice, Welches Jams and Jellies, and other Welches fruit juices.

And Welches products were used as the advertising media for that old satanic series, "The Flintstones."

Strikes me funny. Sorry. I know I have a bizarre sense of humor that nobody shares.

LOL; I was just telling my wife the other day that I want to start up a Buffalo Club here where we live. I want to be The Grand Poobah! I love the hat!

[Gerr]

Just tagging on.

Guys, when there are people that will argue against something that is explicitly enjoined, how then can you convince someone to abstain from something where there is no explicit or absolute Biblical prohibition?

Until the Holy Spirit convinces one otherwise, those who see no harm and think they can handle a little alcohol responsibly will continue to do so. I wonder though how they would approach or deal with those who think they could also responsibly and moderately use pot or coke or heroin?

[fccool]

Gerry,

Look up slippery slope, straw man fallacies. It's a good one to avoid while constructing good arguments in this thread.

I'll even link them for you... please read these and understand what you are doing. Please

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

[Gerr]

Well, is there no such thing as a slippery slope? Was there no slippery slope to the forbidden tree? No slippery slope for the Midianite women in Israel's camp? If you think you can consume alcohol "responsibly", what advice do you have for someone who thinks he/she can use speed, pot, coke, or any other substance "responsibly?"

[doug yowell]

[http://www.amazon.com/Fruit-Vine-Viticulture-Ancient-Publications/dp/1575069040

The winpress was actually cut out from rocks in the ground. Then a tunnel was made into a different compartment cut out in the ground so that the juice would flow into it. Here's an example:

Hey, that looks like Bravus! Wonder what he's doing there? What's he looking for?

[fccool]

Well, is there no such thing as a slippery slope? Was there no slippery slope to the forbidden tree? No slippery slope for the Midianite women in Israel's camp? If you think you can consume alcohol "responsibly", what advice do you have for someone who thinks he/she can use speed, pot, coke, or any other substance "responsibly?"

And that's why I put a straw man argument there, because you make up a straw man of drug consumption and make it out to be the same as alcohol consumption... and for the same reasons.

Do you know of any pot or coke users who do it for taste?

[Overaged]

Hey, that looks like Bravus! Wonder what he's doing there? What's he looking for?

He is looking for vectors

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Well, is there no such thing as a slippery slope? Was there no slippery slope to the forbidden tree? No slippery slope for the Midianite women in Israel's camp? If you think you can consume alcohol "responsibly", what advice do you have for someone who thinks he/she can use speed, pot, coke, or any other substance "responsibly?"

And that's why I put a straw man argument there, because you make up a straw man of drug consumption and make it out to be the same as alcohol consumption... and for the same reasons.

Do you know of any pot or coke users who do it for taste?

Yes; I do know two coke users like that, but the story is too graphic for this forum. You can say all you want about "taste" but there's no getting around it. Alcohol is a dangerous drug, It is a potent intoxicant. You might try to pull the taste card; but there is always a lot more than "taste" to drinking this kind of sap.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: fccool

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bramwell_Welch

Not exactly an unbiased fellow...Welch is the founder of Welches Grape Juice, Welches Jams and Jellies, and other Welches fruit juices.

And Welches products were used as the advertising media for that old satanic series, "The Flintstones."

Strikes me funny. Sorry. I know I have a bizarre sense of humor that nobody shares.

rudywoofs you have a great sense of humor or are you trying to convince yourself otherwise? If no else appreciates it that's there loss.

[phkrause]

Just tagging on.

Guys, when there are people that will argue against something that is explicitly enjoined, how then can you convince someone to abstain from something where there is no explicit or absolute Biblical prohibition?

Until the Holy Spirit convinces one otherwise, those who see no harm and think they can handle a little alcohol responsibly will continue to do so. I wonder though how they would approach or deal with those who think they could also responsibly and moderately use pot or coke or heroin?

Excellent points Gerry. I know I could? Right! LOL I would never even want to see if I could for one, and for two I'm always reminded by the HS about that verse that seems to not to be wanted by some to be brought into the disscusion, maybe guilt it one reason. I used to like having a rum-n-coke, etc. every once in a while, when we'd go out to eat, years ago. But than I started reading my Bible more and really let that verse sink in and knew right than and there and Jesus didn't want me to do that casual drink. Haven't had a drink since. Of course as fccool has mentioned there are many other things we take in that are also bad for us, sugar, etc. I think most of us know whats good and whats bad for us.

[Woody]

There's an old saying that I think applies ...

If the shoe fits wear it.

You know ... if it doesn't fit ... no sweat.

[Guest]

Do you know of any pot or coke users who do it for taste?

Heck yes! I used to be a connoisseur of good tasting pot, and knew many more who were also. They wouldn't let a ciggarette touch their lips, if their life depended on it.

I always thought peruvian flake tasted good too.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: fccool

Do you know of any pot or coke users who do it for taste?

Heck yes! I used to be a connoisseur of good tasting pot, and knew many more who were also. They wouldn't let a ciggarette touch their lips, if their life depended on it.

I always thought peruvian flake tasted good too.

I knew a couple of Peruvian's who were flakes but never actually tried to taste one.Anything like Sugar Frosted?

[Dr. Shane]

I wouldn't want him to see the things that he would see on this Forum. I'm afraid it would confuse and disillusion him. He would read SDAs making fun of other SDAs, ridiculing God's prophet, attacking the Bible, and teaching just about every form of false doctrine there is.

I think a lot of folks that come here get keyboard courage. They say things here that they would not dare say in their Sabbath School class or over the potluck table. They use this forum to vent their frustrations against the church. The ones that seem to be the most frustrated are those that were born into the church and have never really experienced other denominations from the inside. Most of the complaints here are common complaints others make about their own denominations. Even the complaints against Ellen White are often made by members of other denominations against their denomination's founders or highly esteemed leaders. I think it comes down to pride and ego. These discontent members think they know more than the rest of the folks in their denomination (SDA or otherwise) and their ego prevents them from embracing the Christian family and experiencing the unity Christ desires for His church.

I am glad to embrace the Adventist faith and the church as a whole. For me, this is a "we" faith and not a "me" faith.

[LifeHiscost]

I think a lot of folks that come here get keyboard courage. They say things here that they would not dare say in their Sabbath School class or over the potluck table. They use this forum to vent their frustrations against the church. The ones that seem to be the most frustrated are those that were born into the church and have never really experienced other denominations from the inside. Most of the complaints here are common complaints others make about their own denominations. Even the complaints against Ellen White are often made by members of other denominations against their denomination's founders or highly esteemed leaders. I think it comes down to pride and ego. These discontent members think they know more than the rest of the folks in their denomination (SDA or otherwise) and their ego prevents them from embracing the Christian family and experiencing the unity Christ desires for His church.

I am glad to embrace the Adventist faith and the church as a whole. For me, this is a "we" faith and not a "me" faith.

[John317]

I agree, Shane. I enjoy the Forum very much and feel that the people on it are my friends. But I am just saying that the Forum would not be a good place for everyone.

[Bravus]

This has been a long discussion that has, in the main, been conducted in a good spirit and relatively civil standard of conversation. Biblical evidence has been sought, brought and considered. I'm not sure how that would be a bad thing for someone to see. Plenty of people have supported the 'right' conclusion as well as the 'wrong' one, and any smart person ought to be able to consider the evidence for him or herself.

Perhaps when we assume people couldn't handle this place we underestimate them...

[Woody]

truth WILL prevail.

no need to be afraid of ideas and an analysis of information.

[Bravus]

Guys, when there are people that will argue against something that is explicitly enjoined, how then can you convince someone to abstain from something where there is no explicit or absolute Biblical prohibition?

Explicitly enjoined where. *Still* waiting on that evidence that everyone keeps assuming but no-one is providing.

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Until the Holy Spirit convinces one otherwise, those who see no harm and think they can handle a little alcohol responsibly will continue to do so. I wonder though how they would approach or deal with those who think they could also responsibly and moderately use pot or coke or heroin?

I hesitate to embark on this, because people have shown that they *don't read what is written*, and are going to accuse me of promoting drug use. *I'm not* promoting drug use, but I am, once again, defending the truth.

There are many people who use low levels of marijuana consistently over many years with no significant ill effects. Yes, some use too much and experience ill effects, and yes, some go on to harder drugs. But it is simply untrue to say that there is no such thing as safe, moderate use of marijuana. Particularly if it's consumed in some way other than smoking, since the smoking itself has its own irritant effects on the lungs that are well understood.

Cocaine used to be used as a dental anaesthetic. It also used to be an ingredient in Coca-Cola, hence the name. There are better, safer, less addictive anaesthetics available now, and SDAs don't drink Coke so it's a moot point, but again, although cocaine is addictive (while, for those without addictive personalities, alcohol is not, therefore this is a bit of a false parallel in the alcohol thread), it could be argued that it is possible to have safe moderate use of cocaine. Because it *is* addictive, it's far more dangerous to try for than safe moderate use of alcohol - but it's possible.

The issues with heroin are the same: it's addictive, so not a really fair parallel for discussion of alcohol, but it was invented as a painkiller and has a role there. Except for the War On Drugs hysteria it would probably still be used at least in palliative care for extreme pain. Hard to claim safe moderate use both because it is highly addictive and because its use is so pleasurable.

There are the added issues, of course, that street drugs are typically filthy and cut with who knows what and of variable potency, and criminalised so they have legal consequences and involve dealing with unsavoury characters and so on.

And, despite the 'satire' here, all of these drugs are consumed solely for their intoxicating effects, not at all for the pleasure of tasting them.

So, three issues:

1. It's not Biblical evidence, which is all we're really talking about

2. The parallels are false for a number of reasons

3. It is simply untrue that there is no safe, moderate use possible with some of these substances - if they were available clean, easy, cheap and so on

I very strongly believe all these substances should be avoided. But again, I believe stretching the truth in order to make laudable cases should also be avoided.

[Dr. Shane]

SDAs don't drink Coke so it's a moot point

Some of us do drink Coca-cola and enjoy it very much.

[Dr. Shane]

I believe stretching the truth in order to make laudable cases should also be avoided.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you also do not believe we should embrace the affliction of our souls because of this being the anti-typical Day of Atonement, nor do you believe we should give ear to the instruction given to us through God's end-time prophet.

[Bravus]