Is it ok to drink alcohol...?

[phkrause]

GP, here's an interesting show by Shawn Boonstra about study the Bible in context and not just pulling texts out of context. I know its a little bit but thought it might be appropriate none the less. Its about 28 minutes. I personally consider SB one of the best people at interpreting the Bible that I've listen to over the years. Check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQZpDmf-J40

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

Huh? #'s 1&2 assume only that God has a plan for humanity and that He reveals that plan in a consistent manner. Why is that an assumption? Or are you assuming that any argument promoting abstinence is based on a failure to have previously reasoned out #'s 1&2? Or are you promoting the idea that #'s 1&2 are not necessarily true? Seems like you're talking right past cool's point.

fccool was laying out the 'generic' form of the argument for all issues, but what we're talking about here is how that generic argument is used in relation to the issue of alcohol. *That* is where people make the assumption that God's plan involves abstinence and then read that into the Biblical texts. There are loads of examples of that in practice in this thread so far.

I'm assuming that you're assuming that your assumption that others are assuming that abstinence is merely an unbiblical assumption is an unassuming fact. Is it possible that those assumers have actually reached their assumptions based on a previous systematic reading of the Bible in an unassuming manner?Or is it only logical to assume that anyone who reaches this conclusion has only their assumptions to go on?

[Bravus]

I'm assuming that you're assuming that your assumption that others are assuming that abstinence is merely an unbiblical assumption is an unassuming fact. Is it possible that those assumers have actually reached their assumptions based on a previous systematic reading of the Bible in an unassuming manner?Or is it only logical to assume that anyone who reaches this conclusion has only their assumptions to go on?

Yes, I'm making that assumption. It's up for testing.

If they had, however, surely they would be willing and able to share that study here? If such a study exists, and people are familiar with it, doesn't it seem kinda mean of them not to share?

If they did, it would prove my assumption flawed. But we're what, 35 pages and a few hundred posts in? With lots of passionate people? You'd think if it existed it would have shown up by now.

[doug yowell]

Very important point. No one starts out thinking they will end up an alcoholic or that they will die from it or have their lives and their families ruined by it. They all think they have absolute control over it and can handle it just fine.

Yes,and many who are "committed" drinkers keep doing so because they love it and insist to everyone that they could stop anytime they wanted to.

[Bravus]

...and I've been drinking moderately for about 30 years and am not an alcoholic, and know dozens of people personally and thousands indirectly in the same boat. Some people start drinking and become alcoholics, but the majority do not. Balance is important when talking about these issues.

Drinking has its risks, but so does crossing the street. There seems to be some sort of implicit claim being made here that *every* drinker will become an alcoholic, or is already and doesn't know it, and that's nonsense.

If that's not what's being claimed, more clarity is needed.

[Bravus]

So we're agreed that that text from Deuteronomy 14 was a divine instruction to drink alcohol, right? I haven't heard any valid objections.

[fccool]

No, we can't take anything and turn it into an issue. The issue is a mind-altering chemical.

Shane, as I've pointed out before, sugar is an addictive chemical that causes a disease called obesity, which leads to a disease called diabetes.

Excessive sugar use leads to addiction, which starts out with only moderate consumption.

You can make anything into an issue. I can turn excessive exercise into a body-abusing practice.

[Dr. Shane]

Estimates are that 10% of the US population is alcoholic. Since only 60% of the population drinks, that would mean about 16% or one of every six drinkers is alcoholic.

The alcoholic is the last to know they are alcoholic. Many alcoholics live their entire lives, die drunk and never believe themselves to be alcoholic.

My concern is that people surfing this site will read this thread and convince themselves that they are moderate drinkers and have Biblical permission to drink when in fact they are either full-blown or potential alcoholics. Many, many full-blown and potential alcoholics think they are moderate drinkers. Many believe they only drink for the taste. What we write here will be read my surfers for years to come and the devil will most certainly use our words to lead others into sinful traps.

We know more about the impact of alcohol on the body and brain today then ever before. We also have a wide variety of beverages to choose from. We have refrigeration, stoves and ovens that make our diets better than ancient kings and rulers could have ever dreamed of. The only benefit alcohol really offers is that it can reduce stress and help some people become more social. Both of those can be accomplished without it.

[Dr. Shane]

Shane, as I've pointed out before, sugar is an addictive chemical that causes a disease called obesity, which leads to a disease called diabetes.

I do not believe sugar is a mind-altering chemical which can lead to mental illness. Obesity is linked to diabetes and so is fat consumption. Any link to sugar would be indirect. However diabetes is not a mental illness.

BTW: sugar is an effective way to wain an alcoholic off from alcohol.

[Dr. Shane]

Drinking has its risks, but so does crossing the street.

I hope you walk in the crosswalk when you cross the street.

[LifeHiscost]

And now we can get down to the serious business of determining how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Yes' date=' I'm making that assumption. It's up for testing.

And we have a winner.

Originally Posted By: Bravus

If they had, however, surely they would be willing and able to share that study here? If such a study exists, and people are familiar with it, doesn't it seem kinda mean of them not to share?

If they did, it would prove my assumption flawed. But we're what, 35 pages and a few hundred posts in? With lots of passionate people? You'd think if it existed it would have shown up by now. [/quote']

[fccool]

Biblically there was an abstinence requirement for the Levites. There was also an abstinence requirement for the Nazarenes. Are God's end-time people also a people set apart for a specific purpose with an abstinence requirement? I believe so.

It's funny that you pick alcohol with reference to the above:

Nazarene were to abstain from grape juice, grapes, raising, from cutting their hair, avoid corpses and graves, and... inheriting the land.

Do God's end-tie people have a specific purpose to abstain from these?

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

I am not a Nazarene, and cessation of any or all harmless, pleasant practices that do not hurt me and anyone else is patently ridiculous.

I am not a Nazarene either. I am a Seventh-day Adventist. My God is not a silent God. He called forth an end-time prophet and made it clear that those given the responsibility to carry the Three Angels' Message to the world are to abstain from alcohol. Consuming or selling alcohol is listed in the Church Manual as a reason for church discipline. This is not an insignificant issue in our denomination.

Good point,Shane. Don't you find it a little odd that an "Adventist" posting on an "Adventist"site can promote the "un-biblical" charge against a requirement that has been mandatory since the church's inception. The acceptance of this teaching and lifestyle is inexorably connected with the church's identity and mission. If this restriction is unbiblical it is a charge against the legitimacy of the entire SDA organization from James White to the last person baptized.Given that membership in this church is completely voluntary why would anyone stay an SDA knowing that they did not believe in one of it's main requirements? Why not join up with Dale Ratzlaff or a Calvary Chapel?

[doug yowell]

...and I've been drinking moderately for about 30 years and am not an alcoholic, and know dozens of people personally and thousands indirectly in the same boat. Some people start drinking and become alcoholics, but the majority do not. Balance is important when talking about these issues.

Drinking has its risks, but so does crossing the street. There seems to be some sort of implicit claim being made here that *every* drinker will become an alcoholic, or is already and doesn't know it, and that's nonsense.

If that's not what's being claimed, more clarity is needed.

I,for one, am not claiming that!!

[fccool]

Doug,

So, a person who finds the Sabbath to be the truth, yet who rejects that E.G.White is a prophet... should go and find another church?

Or a person who believes that jewelry is acceptable Christian practice but follows everything else should find another church?

You make no sense whatsoever. People pick the churches to worship in bases on the best overlapping of their believes. Please don't make Adventism to be the exclusive club that one gets in after an oath recitation.

If church's identity is to promote health message by example, it fails miserably. I'm not saying that there are some improvements over general population, but if we take average Japanese and average Adventist... guess which one turns out to be healthier?

The purpose of the church is to house a like-minded people for the benefit of humanity. That was to be the purpose of Israel. They failed, because they misunderstood what it was about. It's certainly not about boozing it up, but it's likewise not about walking around telling people that they can't carry their bed's on Sabbath, or taste the "forbidden fruits of eden".

God gives people freedom. You can use it without abusing it. I always have a bottle of non-alcoholic wine at special occasions... and sure enough some snob-Adventist will pick it up and exclaim "you know that there's 0.5% of alcohol in it, right?". To which my reply is.... YOU DON'T HAVE TO DRINK IT.

[Bravus]

Ignoring the 'comedy' and continuing to try to find out what the Bible actually says in relation to this issue.

There are really only two more texts to look at, from the list on Page 28 of this thread, that haven't already been addressed in relation to one or other of the various issues covered. One is in Habakkuk and the other in Ecclesiastes.

Let's start with Habakkuk:

Habakkuk 2:15 Woe to him who makes his neighbors drink — you pour out your wrath and make them drunk, in order to gaze at their nakedness!

Hmm, maybe a little more context:

Habakkuk 2 (KJV)

15 Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness! 16 Thou art filled with shame for glory: drink thou also, and let thy foreskin be uncovered: the cup of the LORD's right hand shall be turned unto thee, and shameful spewing shall be on thy glory.

The chapter as a whole is about an oppressor, someone who expands his own fortune with violence, and about the coming justice and deliverance. These particular verses are about the same person getting his neighbours drunk in order to see them naked.

Firstly, it's a warning against getting other people drunk, and we've already noted that the Bible contains many strong warnings about drunkenness.

Secondly, the *purpose* of the use of alcohol is for sexual abuse, and it's a no-brainer that that's wrong.

But to say 'don't get your neighbours drunk so you can look at them naked' is a very long way from 'don't have a quiet drink yourself'.

[Dr. Shane]

Do God's end-tie people have a specific purpose to abstain from these?

God provided us instruction through His end-time prophet so we don't have to guess about such things. What a wonderful, loving and compassionate God we serve!

[Bravus]

Don't you find it a little odd that an "Adventist" posting on an "Adventist" site can promote the "un-biblical" charge against a requirement that has been mandatory since the church's inception. The acceptance of this teaching and lifestyle is inexorably connected with the church's identity and mission. If this restriction is unbiblical it is a charge against the legitimacy of the entire SDA organization from James White to the last person baptized.Given that membership in this church is completely voluntary why would anyone stay an SDA knowing that they did not believe in one of it's main requirements? Why not join up with Dale Ratzlaff or a Calvary Chapel?

If the SDA church is promulgating an unbiblical notion, shouldn't it find out? I think it's a bit of a scandal if the SDA church *is* doing that: but most of the SDA stalwarts here seem very comfortable with the idea.

Incidentally, I'm not sure I *am* an SDA. My name isn't on the books anywhere as far as I know, and I don't regularly attend an SDA church. I'm a believer in Jesus, getting by in life as I can and trying to understand what God desires of me. Weight my words by that self-identification as you wish.

[fccool]

Originally Posted By: fccool

Do God's end-tie people have a specific purpose to abstain from these?

God provided us instruction through His end-time prophet so we don't have to guess about such things. What a wonderful, loving and compassionate God we serve!

So, it took God 2000 years to provide those instructions? How is that loving or compassionate on people who lived in prior darkness, according to you?

[Dr. Shane]

So, a person who finds the Sabbath to be the truth, yet who rejects that E.G.White is a prophet... should go and find another church?

[fccool]

Quote:

If they don't believe Ellen White was a prophet they shouldn't want to be a member of a denomination that believes she is. If she wasn't, that means she was a false prophet. So those that believe she wasn't, should not want to be members of the Adventist movement.

That's nonsense. I don't have enough evidence to believe that she was a prophet. I've made it clear to my pastor, and he assured me that church position is that it's my choice and it's not a test of membership.

There are plenty of Adventists who share my views.

[Bravus]

Ecclesiates is the story of a man (traditionally believed to be Solomon) seeking the meaning of life in all sorts of places. Eventually he arrives here:

Ecclesiastes 12:13 (KJV)

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

On the way he tried pleasure and also achievement, and sought in all sorts of places. One of the things he tried was drinking:

Ecclesiastes 2:3 (KJV)

3 I sought in mine heart to give myself unto wine, yet acquainting mine heart with wisdom; and to lay hold on folly, till I might see what was that good for the sons of men, which they should do under the heaven all the days of their life.

He found that the meaning of life did not lie in drinking. I don't think anyone here would assume it does.

So this text says 'don't got to drink for the meaning of life'. It doesn't say 'don't drink'.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Shane

Biblically there was an abstinence requirement for the Levites. There was also an abstinence requirement for the Nazarenes. Are God's end-time people also a people set apart for a specific purpose with an abstinence requirement? I believe so.

It's funny that you pick alcohol with reference to the above:

Nazarene were to abstain from grape juice, grapes, raising, from cutting their hair, avoid corpses and graves, and... inheriting the land.

Do God's end-tie people have a specific purpose to abstain from these?

Actually, like Adventists,the Nazarenes had a similar prohibition, against the use of alcohol until just recently.But they were never required to avoid barber shops, cemeteries,mortuaries,real estate offices,raisens,or Welch's.

[Dr. Shane]

So, it took God 2000 years to provide those instructions?

There were prophets in the early church, after the completion of the New Testament. God was silent for the 1,260 years of papal darkness. He was also silent for 400 years between the New and Old Testament times. After the Dark Ages ended, God called forth a prophet for the end times. So we are not left in darkness.

Look at this passage which applies to the end time.

1 Thessalonians 5:

1. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Here the Bible tells us that those of us at the end of time will not be in darkness. We will be children of the light. That light is the lesser light which shines on the Great Light. The reason we are not in darkness is because God called forth an end-time prophet. Then, we are told to be watchful and sober. This is an end-time message for God's end-time church.

[Bravus]

...and here we are again, after 385 posts and after considering all of the Biblical evidence.

I think it's very easy to make a Biblical case against drunkenness.

I think it's very hard to make a Biblical case for complete abstinence.

Having said that, 'everything is permissible but not everything is beneficial' (1 Corinth. 10:23)

I think, actually, that most of you have conceded at one point or another that this is the case.