Is it ok to drink alcohol...?

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Study shows 1 in 25 deaths worldwide attributable to alcohol

June 26' date=' 2009

Research from Canada's own Centre for Addiction and Mental Health (CAMH) featured in this week's edition of the Lancet shows that worldwide, 1 in 25 deaths are directly attributable to alcohol consumption. This rise since 2000 is mainly due to increases in the number of women drinking.

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And in contrast to other traditional risk factors for disease, the burden attributable to alcohol lies more with younger people than with the older population.

[/quote']

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”"

Galatians 5:14 NKJV

Can one love his neighbor while giving the impression there is no real danger in ingesting a toxic substance? And what is our influence over the life of the young who look to us as examples of "responsible" living?

God blesses!

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

I'm assuming that you're assuming that your assumption that others are assuming that abstinence is merely an unbiblical assumption is an unassuming fact. Is it possible that those assumers have actually reached their assumptions based on a previous systematic reading of the Bible in an unassuming manner?Or is it only logical to assume that anyone who reaches this conclusion has only their assumptions to go on?

Yes, I'm making that assumption. It's up for testing.

Then your assumption would be wrong.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

If they don't believe Ellen White was a prophet they shouldn't want to be a member of a denomination that believes she is.

That's nonsense. I don't have enough evidence to believe that she was a prophet. I've made it clear to my pastor, and he assured me that church position is that it's my choice and it's not a test of membership.

It isn't nonsense. You live in a liberal area. If you move or things change their locally like your pastor and/or church board, you could find yourself under censor or being disfellowshipped. Read the Church Manual if you don't believe me. Churches in the North American Division tend to be quite liberal. If you live there and plan to stay there you are probably safe - although things may change. If you were to move to the Inter-American Division, you would probably be disfellowshipped.

[doug yowell]

...and here we are again, after 385 posts and after considering all of the Biblical evidence.

Originally Posted By: Bravus

I think it's very easy to make a Biblical case against drunkenness.

I think it's very hard to make a Biblical case for complete abstinence.

Having said that, 'everything is permissible but not everything is beneficial' (1 Corinth. 10:23)

I think, actually, that most of you have conceded at one point or another that this is the case.

Yes on point one.Nope on point 2

[doug yowell]

[doug yowell]

Doug,

So, a person who finds the Sabbath to be the truth, yet who rejects that E.G.White is a prophet... should go and find another church?

Or a person who believes that jewelry is acceptable Christian practice but follows everything else should find another church?

You make no sense whatsoever. People pick the churches to worship in bases on the best overlapping of their believes. Please don't make Adventism to be the exclusive club that one gets in after an oath recitation.

If church's identity is to promote health message by example, it fails miserably. I'm not saying that there are some improvements over general population, but if we take average Japanese and average Adventist... guess which one turns out to be healthier?

The purpose of the church is to house a like-minded people for the benefit of humanity. That was to be the purpose of Israel. They failed, because they misunderstood what it was about. It's certainly not about boozing it up, but it's likewise not about walking around telling people that they can't carry their bed's on Sabbath, or taste the "forbidden fruits of eden".

God gives people freedom. You can use it without abusing it. I always have a bottle of non-alcoholic wine at special occasions... and sure enough some snob-Adventist will pick it up and exclaim "you know that there's 0.5% of alcohol in it, right?". To which my reply is.... YOU DON'T HAVE TO DRINK IT.

The prophetic calling of EGW and the wearing of jewelry have never been requirements of fellowship in the SDA church. Abstinence has been a tenet of Adventism since it's foundation. It has been unanimously accepted by everyone of the church's founders and leaders,in every generation and every country. It did not occur as a result of an edict of Ellen White. Neither was it out of the ordinary for the Protestant world of the pre-1950's. God gives freedom to do whatever one desires, Adventism has chosen to forbid alcohol because it is convinced that that would be in harmony with God's will for a last day people. If the church is to be a place for like minded people then Adventists have the right to require everyone to be like minded or become a non-distinctive.

[Dr. Shane]

The prophetic calling of EGW and the wearing of jewelry have never been requirements of fellowship in the SDA church.

Believing in the Spirit of Prophecy is one of our baptismal vows and is Fundamental Belief #17. According to the Church Manual, a church can disfellowship someone who denies the fundamentals of the gospel and cardinal doctrines of the church. In Latin America, I guarantee you that denying the prophetic gift of Ellen White will get your name taken off the books. Drinking alcohol will too. And they do disfellowship members all the time. And they still can't build enough churches for all their members. Many of those disfellowshipped members end up repenting and coming back.

[Guest]

The prophetic calling of EGW and the wearing of jewelry have never been requirements of fellowship in the SDA church. Abstinence has been a tenet of Adventism since it's foundation. It has been unanimously accepted by everyone of the church's founders and leaders,in every generation and every country. It did not occur as a result of an edict of Ellen White. Neither was it out of the ordinary for the Protestant world of the pre-1950's. God gives freedom to do whatever one desires, Adventism has chosen to forbid alcohol because it is convinced that that would be in harmony with God's will for a last day people. If the church is to be a place for like minded people then Adventists have the right to require everyone to be like minded or become a non-distinctive.

You have hit that nail right on it's head Doug.

[Bravus]

'Because it's an article of faith of the SDA' church is not as strong a ground as 'for the Bible tells me so', but I guess it'll have to do.

[Dr. Shane]

Just to clarify a point many here already know about me, I am not a *historical* Adventist that believes everything Ellen White wrote is without error. I do believe she was mistaken about some things. However, I do believe she was a prophet. I think some people struggle with accepting her prophetic ministry because some *historic* Adventists set the writings of Ellen White on equal ground with the Bible.

[epaminondas]

No, it's not OK to drink alcohol. In fact, it's stupid. Alcohol is only tolerated because it's been around for thousands of years. Here are my reasons for saying only morons drink.

• Alcohol is a slow, slowly but strongly addictive poison the kills about 3000/year in Australia (population 21 million) with a social cost estimated in billions of dollars per year. But that's not my point.
• Everyone making money out of alcohol knows this, yet they continue making, selling, advertising and transporting it. The only conclusion is that they care more about the money they make out of alcohol than it's effects, deaths included. That's not my point either. There will always be rotters.
• What would you call the action of buying a slow poison from somebody who couldn't care less if it killed you as long as he made some money out of you? Clever, manly, cool or stupid? This is my point.

Yes, drinking is stupid. What else can we call giving your money for a slow poison?

[Overaged]

Yes, I'm making that assumption. It's up for testing.

[Bravus]

'Kinda mean' was meant to be a wry joke - apologies if it didn't come across that way.

[Bravus]

In terms of your longer discussion, I am *extremely* pleased to see it. Some Scripture is what I've been pleading for all along. I'll quote-and-respond below. I may move the bits around a little to make it easier to work through. I am completely serious in saying I'm delighted to see the post - the fact that I disagree with some points doesn't negate that.

Quote:

It is so easy for imbibers to use Prov 31 as a way to try and say it is OK in God's eyes to drink booze; but lets look at that passage in the clear light of other Bible passages, and stop trying to isolate it to our own pet practices.

I'm guessing you were preparing this study a couple of days ago while the study I was working through was focused on Proverbs 31. I have addressed maybe half a dozen other texts since then, and you may recall that I specifically said that Proverbs 31 *does not* make for a strong argument that it's OK to 'drink booze'. So whoever and whatever this paragraph is in response to, it's not to my study of that passage or this topic.

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There is no excuse today for the argument that there is nothing intrinsically wrong in the use of intoxicants, on the basis that God once permitted them. As anyone who reads the Bible will see, He also once permitted such practices as slavery and polygamy.

We could go off to study the fact that the Bible never actually gets around to condemning slavery, but that's a whole other study and should go in another thread. We could also note that the same text in Timothy that says deacons should not be drunkards also says they should be husbands of one wife: which if we extend it to all church members supports monogomy and avoiding drunkenness. I've said since Page 1 that the Bible condemns drunkenness.

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In times past God often “winked” at gross “ignorance” responsible for practices He could never approve. But eventually the time comes when, on each point, God “commandeth all men every where to repent” (Acts 17:30). Then those who persist in their practices in spite of counsel and warning, no longer have a “cloke for their sin” (John 15:22). Prior to that time “they had not had sin” and God did not hold them wholly accountable, even though their deeds were far short of the ideal. His long-suffering is extended to all who “know not what they do” (Luke 23:34). Like Paul, who persecuted the church “ignorantly in unbelief,” they may obtain mercy (1 Tim. 1:13).

All good texts and a clear argument. None of them specifically relate to the issue of alcohol, and your whole argument remains circular because it *assumes* that drinking alcohol is sin - albeit sin God 'winked at' in the past - without establishing from the Bible that it actually is sin. It also ignores the text in Deuteronomy where God *commands* the use of tithe money to purchase 'wine and strong drink'. That's not a 'wink'.

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In olden times God suffered the Israelites to have slaves, but protected the slaves against injustice (Ex. 21:16, 20). Even in the Christian church slavery was not immediately abolished, but masters were instructed to deal kindly with their slaves (Eph. 6:9; Col. 4:1).

Correct. I would state that there is no Biblical case against slavery. Doesn't mean slavery is a good or right thing, but the Bible does not explicitly condemn it. I'm not sure how that fact constitutes an argument about alcohol.

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In a similar way, God never approved of the practice of divorce or the keeping of a plurality of wives. “From the beginning it was not so” (Matt. 19:8). But, for a time, God suffered it, and gave instructions designed to safeguard the rights of women, to mitigate the suffering that resulted from these practices, and to protect the marriage relationship from grosser abuse (Ex. 21:7–11; Deut. 21:10–17). Whereas on the one hand God did not forbid Abraham, for instance, to take a second wife, Hagar, on the other hand He did not protect him from the evils that resulted from such a course of action.

God gave Moses laws designed, not directly to abolish polygamy, but to discourage it (Lev. 18:18; Deut. 17:17), to restrict divorce (Deut. 22:19, 29; 24:1), and to elevate the standard of married life (Ex. 20:14, 17; Lev. 20:10; Deut. 22:22). Christ made it clear that the OT provisions for a plurality of wives and for divorce were not ideal, but, rather a temporary expedient God suffered to be “because of the hardness of your hearts” (Matt. 19:4–8). Christ pointed to God’s ideal for Christian homes (Matt. 19:9), which has ever been monogamy (Matt. 19:4–6; 1 Tim. 3:2; Titus 1:6). The Christian need not be in doubt as to God’s will in these matters, and is therefore without even the limited excuse men had in OT times.

But Onan was cursed because he refused to bear a child with the wife of his deceased brother, so that the children of the wife he already had could inherit unimpeded. God commanded and enforced polygamy in some circumstances in the Old Testament. In Matthew 19 Jesus is talking about divorce, not polygamy. When the SDA missionaries forced polygamous islanders to divorce their plural wives, they flew in the face of Jesus' plain teaching. When the church in North America has as many divorces as the world it flies in the face of Jesus' plain teaching. And yet Jesus never said a word against alcohol.

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It is the exact same thing with “wine” and “strong drink.” Neither was strictly prohibited, except to those engaged in religious duties, and perhaps also in the administration of justice (Lev. 10:9; Prov. 31:4, 5). But, the evils of “wine” and “strong drink” were clearly pointed out, the people counseled very clearly to refrain from them (Prov. 20:1; 23:29–33), and a curse pronounced upon those who should entice others to over-indulgence in drink (Hab. 2:15).

Each of these texts has been looked at in some detail over the past few days.

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But Paul sets before us the ideal by declaring, “Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God” (1 Cor. 10:31), and warns that God will destroy those who defile their bodies (1 Cor. 3:16, 17). Intoxicants “defile the temple of God,” and their use cannot be considered a means of glorifying Him (1 Cor. 6:19, 20; 10:31). How can anyone say that it is OK to drink something so foul and intoxicating as booze and say it is supported by the Bible?

Same circular reasoning: you provide texts for almost every statement here except 'intoxicants defile the temple of God', but that's the absolute crux of the argument. That's the thing that most needs scriptural support.

Quote:

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

What would count as being 'deceived by' wine and strong drink? One drink? Three drinks? Getting drunk? It's a strong text - perhaps the strongest in the whole Bible on the topic. If you're going to build a Biblical case, this is the place to start. I'm still reading it as a prohibition of drunkenness but am very happy to concede that the alternative interpretation of abstinence is plausible.

Look, I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm *not* arguing for the use of alcohol. I'm arguing for the proposition that it is hard to make a Bibical case for complete abstinence from alcohol.

Make all the health, EGW, drink-driving, cost and other arguments you like, and make them persuasive.

But Christians need to tell the truth about what the Bible says.

[Overaged]

Bravus; what you keep calling "circular reasoning" is really not. It is simply reasoning that you disagree with. You have a presupposition yourself here; one that says: the Bible/Jesus does not speak against alcohol; in the sense of drinking it being "sin." I have provided texts that say alcohol consumption is sinful; and you just reason them away and negate clearly worded Bible texts by counting them as "circular reasoning." I have not given you my opinion. I gave you Bible texts that say specific things against drinking intoxicants. To extend the principles of all the "shekar" verses; we can logically include all intoxicating substances - not just the booze in use during OT times. Alcohol is a drug. It is an intoxicant. And you are trying to present an eisegesis that the Bible does not count drinking it as sin? All you have done here is to negate Bible texts instead of explaining them. Alcohol kills and cripples way more victims than smoking and you say the Bible has nothing in it to call this kind of thing sin?

Just because the Bible [allegedly] does not say that alcoholic beverages are prohibited; why then does it have to mean that the Bible actually approves of booze drinking? You still have not explained that.

In staunch defence of booze-drinking, we hear a lot of talk about how the Bible refers to "wine" or "strong drink." The question is defensively asked: "Don't we often find people in the Bible who drink alcohol?" And therefore, they say "the Bible, generally does not condemn drinking of alcoholic beverages; especially if it's just one, especially if it's under control." "I can handle it;" is the stoic declaration of many Christians who tell the world that "the Bible says it's OK to have a drink!" This study asks such people the question: "What is it that you can handle?" By your own admission, you state that something, regarding alcoholic beverages needs to be "handled." What is that? What is it that you "handle?" Does this admission not mean that alcohol is dangerous? Why would you have to so stoically declare: "I can handle it;" if it was not a threat to your well-being, or to the well-being of others? You still have not answered that either.

There actually is the odd time where we find the Bible talking about people drinking alcohol, and yes, the Bible does speak clearly about alcoholic beverages; but we must be more careful than we usually are to not read so much into a superficial look at such texts.

When The Old Testament refers to alcohol; it generally does use the words "wine" or "strong drink." Therefore, any study of The Old Testament's attitude, (context), regarding alcohol must consider the various Hebrew words translated into these two English terms.

The phrase "strong drink" should not present any translation problems for us because only the one Hebrew word "shekar" lies behind that one; but even the translation of "strong drink" is often contexted in a more general context than it need be. Unless they have looked into it, modern readers usually see "strong drink" in the context of some strong, distilled liquor. But that certainly is not what the Bible means by "shekar." Since the process of distilling alcohol did not even come into being until around AD500; the strongest alcoholic beverage people could make was about 14% - 20% alcohol, by volume. This was approximately the maximum produced by natural fermentation. This fact tells us that the scriptural use of "strong drink," never once referred to what we know today as "hard liquor."

A more up to date article in Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distilled_beverage#cite_note-4 actually says that the distilation of hard liquor did not really start untill around the 12th century. There are records, apparently, of "natural fermentation" process being developed as early as 800 BC. (see Encyclopedia Brittanica). This would indicate alcohol in the form of beer or wine types of beverages were in use during Bible times. This fact verifies that it's not distilled alcohol that the Bible is talking about; it will verify that what the Bible means by "shekar" is beverages such as beer or wine.

What specific views does the Bible present to us about beer and wine types of beverages? While many imbibers would advocate that any quotes given by those who believe the Bible prohibits alcoholic beverage consumption are "out of context;" this study takes the approach that the Bible's declarations about aloholic drinks are not out of context at all. It is all told to us by God, just the way He intended it to be. Contrary to advocates in favor of alcohol consumption, the Bible actually takes a very dim view of it. Out of 21 texts which mention "shekar," (beer), 19 of those texts strongly condemn it use. The other two texts do present special cases, which I will address a little later in another post.

The New Testament mentions this same beverage only once; and the text where this is found is in Luke 1:15, where use of alcohol by John the Baptist while he was growing up was clearly prohibited.

To get a part of the picture which God has portrayed for us in The Old Testament's texts on "shekar;" lets just get the texts there out in the open first:

1/ Leviticus 10:9 prohibits use of "shekar" by a priestly ministry

2/ Num 6:2,3 forbids Nazarites from drinking it

3/ In Judges 13:3, 4 an angel warns Samson's Mother to be to NOT drink it during her pregnancy

4/ In Deut 29:5,6 God tells the Israelites that He did not once provide alcolic drinks for His people in their wilderness wanderings

5/ There is also a very interesting story about Hannah. She went to the tabernacle at Shiloh and prayed so earnestly about the fact that she was childless, , that the Priest accused her of being drunk with "shekar." She hotly denied this. ( 1 Sam 1:15).

6/ The prophets of Judah in the 8th century BC were especially vigorous in their condemnation of strong drink. (beer). Isaiah mentions strong drink 8 times, and each reference is strongly negative. He pronounces a woe on those who drink it, (Isa 5:11), and notes that it would not bring myrth when God cursed the land. (Isa 24:9). He points out that beer causes staggering, (Isa 29:9), and that the false priests and prophets were just two groups who especially staggered from it's effects. (Isa 28:7).

7/ The prophet Micah noted that the people wanted precisely this kind of leader - one who would approve of it's use. (Micah 2:11, CEV).

8/ Proverbs 20:1 speaks of rage and brawling as just two of alcohol's side-effects.

I have given a lot of examples from the Bible where booze is prohibited.

[Bravus]

Wish you'd been around a couple of days ago when I was asking whether there were any more texts we should consider.

Will wait until you consider the one in Deuteronomy, since it's already on the table, but then have a look at these ones.

[Bravus]

You're still missing my point, though. Probably because you assume that my goal is to justify my own (moderate) use of alcohol, which is not correct.

My goal is to find out what the Bible says. That's the sole motivation here.

[Bravus]

Micah 2:11 doesn't say what you say it says, unless perhaps you are playing version games. Here are a couple of renditions:

NIV: 11 If a liar and deceiver comes and says, ‘I will prophesy for you plenty of wine and beer,’ that would be just the prophet for this people!

KJV: 11 If a man walking in the spirit and falsehood do lie, saying, I will prophesy unto thee of wine and of strong drink; he shall even be the prophet of this people.

Here's the CEV version you cited:

11 The only prophet you want is a liar who will say, "Drink and get drunk!"

It's clear that this whole chapter is about false prophets, not alcohol. Micah is saying that the people would be happy with a prophet who prophesied that they would receive plenty of wine and beer.

It's possible that there is an incidental suggestion that wine and strong drink are not good things, but it's incidental, not the focus of the text.

[Bravus]

I guess we could keep playing this game forever. I'll have a look at Isaiah and then I'm done: no-one who's read the thread is still undecided, presumably.

I can only find 6 references to strong drink in Isaiah, but am very happy to be shown the other 2 you mentioned. Here are the ones I could find:

Isaiah 5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!

Another warning against drunkenness.

Isaiah 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink

Not so sure what this one means - would need to go to the Hebrew. 'Mighty at drinking and mixing drinks' certainly suggests drunkenness, and the fact that this is a later part of the same chapter as the preceding one supports that interpretation. This is, like much of the book of Isaiah, a prophecy against Israel for its sins. The most egregious of these were the way they oppressed the poor, but drunkenness was one of these sins.

Isaiah 24:9 They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.

Here's a bit more context:

7 The new wine mourneth, the vine languisheth, all the merryhearted do sigh. 8 The mirth of tabrets ceaseth, the noise of them that rejoice endeth, the joy of the harp ceaseth. 9 They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it. 10 The city of confusion is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in. 11 There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone.

This is a description of the cursed land after God's judgement. I don't want to make too much of it, but this is a description of a land from which all joy has gone out, the music has stopped, everything is desolate. It's saying that even the normal pleasures of wine have become bitter - which seems to suggest that it *is* a normal pleasure. That's it's a curse to *lose* the pleasure of wine.

Isaiah 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

This is the same issue addressed in the first few verses of Proverbs 31: justice perverted through drunkenness of judges. Absolutely a bad thing.

Isaiah 29:9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.

More of the curse on the land: the soldiers would stagger as though drunk although not drunk. I guess it could be used as evidence that drunk people stagger... but we've already stipulated that there are many, many more direct warnings about drunkenness.

Isaiah 56:12 Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.

More of the curse, and a malediction on those who are complacent when the curse is about to fall on them.

One thing I keep on noticing: when I go out to read the whole chapter for so many of these texts, it turns out that the context is justice. Here's Verse 1 of Isaiah 56:

1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.

So, in wrapping up this discussion, from my perspective, let me say:

Don't drink. It's healthier, better and simpler and there are lots of good reasons.

But don't neglect what Jesus called the 'weightier matters of the law'. Because, in studying the Bible I see again and again that those are the things God gets really exercised about.

[Guest]

No, it's not OK to drink alcohol. In fact, it's stupid. Alcohol is only tolerated because it's been around for thousands of years. Here are my reasons for saying only morons drink.

• Alcohol is a slow, slowly but strongly addictive poison the kills about 3000/year in Australia (population 21 million) with a social cost estimated in billions of dollars per year. But that's not my point.
• Everyone making money out of alcohol knows this, yet they continue making, selling, advertising and transporting it. The only conclusion is that they care more about the money they make out of alcohol than it's effects, deaths included. That's not my point either. There will always be rotters.
• What would you call the action of buying a slow poison from somebody who couldn't care less if it killed you as long as he made some money out of you? Clever, manly, cool or stupid? This is my point.

Yes, drinking is stupid. What else can we call giving your money for a slow poison?

So what are you trying to say epaminondas? Why not just tell us how you REALLY feel.

[doug yowell]

'Because it's an article of faith of the SDA' church is not as strong a ground as 'for the Bible tells me so', but I guess it'll have to do.

Coming from you,that's fair enough.Yet our contention is that the "Bible tells us so",and that has been the church's position since it's inception.So the issue remains in which direction does the Bible point.?---Carry on.

[doug yowell]

Believing in the Spirit of Prophecy is one of our baptismal vows and is Fundamental Belief #17. According to the Church Manual, a church can disfellowship someone who denies the fundamentals of the gospel and cardinal doctrines of the church. In Latin America, I guarantee you that denying the prophetic gift of Ellen White will get your name taken off the books. .

Yes, I know what #17 says but you'll notice that the name Ellen G.White is not mentioned. This I believe is done intentionally because she,during her ministry, never wanted her gift to become the reason for believing in the SDA message.The wording is vague enough that anyone who has an understanding of the remnant can agree that it will have a prophetic gift.I did not become an Adventist because of EGW's prophetic presence and abstinence from alcohol is not an EGW prophetic utterance."Believe in the Lord your God and you will be established(founding the church)believe in His prophets and you will prosper (the success of the church)"

[doug yowell]

No, it's not OK to drink alcohol. In fact, it's stupid. Alcohol is only tolerated because it's been around for thousands of years. Here are my reasons for saying only morons drink.

Yes, drinking is stupid. What else can we call giving your money for a slow poison?

Uh, stupid does not come immediately to mind.Although if it infers an intellectual lack I'd have to say no!Dangerous,deceptive,presumptious,careless,narcissistic,self destructive,ect...unless,of course, one knows that it is any of the above and does it anyway.

[doug yowell]

[it is so easy for imbibers to use Prov 31 as a way to try and say it is OK in God's eyes to drink booze; but lets look at that passage in the clear light of other Bible passages, and stop trying to isolate it to our own pet practices.

That was a clear and concise presentation,OA!Thanks for taking the time to articulate my Biblical understanding of the issue.

[fccool]

If you have any slightest clue about winepressing and distribution in Ancient Israel, you would at least question how Jesus could be drinking freshly squeezed grape juice in April... 7 months after the harvest?

A lot of the arguments that are brought forward revolve around dogma and prevention. Much like Jews would make up a wall of rules to keep the Sabbath. These ignore many realities and largely deal idealistic view that ends up in blind criticism of anything that does not go along with it.

Thus the Church members MUST agree with the rules of the church, even thought these are loosely derived from sparse quotation of scripture with help of of Prophetic doctrine , that ironically appear after 2000 years of absence of it.