Is it ok to drink alcohol...?

[JawgeFromJawja]

John317: If anyone wants to see what the Bible teaches on the quesion of the use of alcohol, I suggest they read Samuel Bacchiocchi's book, Wine In the Bible. He looks carefully at every single verse in the Bible that touches on the issue, analyzing it both linguistically and historically.

Or even better, get your favorite Bible translation down, along with a good index for wine, strong drink, etc; a Strong's numbers index, and other references you think needed.

Then ask the Holy Spirit to guide you in your own first hand study of the Bible on the use of alcohol.

JawgeFromJawja

[Dr. Shane]

a shot of whiskey in the 1930's saved the life of my uncle when he was going into shock and hypothermia..

I don't know of anyone against the use of alcohol for medical purposes.

[John317]

If anyone wants to see what the Bible teaches on the quesion of the use of alcohol, I suggest they read Samuel Bacchiocchi's book, Wine In the Bible. He looks carefully at every single verse in the Bible that touches on the issue, analyzing it both linguistically and historically.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Or even better, get your favorite Bible translation down, along with a good index for wine, strong drink, etc; a Strong's numbers index, and other references you think needed.

Then ask the Holy Spirit to guide you in your own first hand study of the Bible on the use of alcohol.

I agree with you that this is what we should do, on all Bible topics, making sure the translations are accurate and dependable.

When I suggested that people read Bacchiocchi's book, I assumed they would study it along with their own Bible's and pray that God would teach them. God uses other committed Christans to help us. That is why we come to read and talk about these things on the Forum.

I also referred to Bacchiocchi's book because it's a good example of a well-written, scholarly book that makes the case that the Bible teaches abstinance when it come to alcohol. As I say, he looks closely at every single verse dealing with the topic.

I was a drinker until my parents gave me his book as a gift. I knew before I read it that the Bible condemns drunkeness, but Bacchiocchi's book convinced me that the Bible goes beyond that and teaches abstinence. So I stopped drinking altogether and haven't had a drink of alcohol in any form for about five years.

[fccool]

We give up things because we trust that He knows what is best for us.

Shane,

To turn it around a bit ... does it mean that people who don't do everything that God says do not love God?

I really find it sort of a "if you love me, you'll do the dishes, take out the trash, clean up the house, cook me some dinner, and warm up the bed" type of idea of love. It just does not work like that. It's void true knowledge of a person, and it's sort of one-sided.

Imagine someone start to say, God ... if you love me... you'll give me you'll heal this disease, or you'll help me with this financial problem... and etc. LOVE DOES NOT WORK LIKE THAT!!!

Love exists in context of free will. It does not demand things. It's an expression. It's an offering without expectation.

Now, looking back at Biblical characters that were told to love God... these people did everything God wanted them to do, right? You wife only loves you if she does everything you want her to do, and she is everything she wants her to be? After all many of those things are really good for her.

I hope you see the silliness of this ideology , and how it's ripped out where it belongs in that particular conversation. It sort of becomes a mantra. I don't do those things because I love God... as though it's impossible to do many of the same things because one loves God.

If people can abstain from meat because they love God, do you believe they can eat meat for the same reason? If people don't wear jewelry because they love God, do you think they can wear some because they do? And, gasp, can you believe people can enjoy a glass of wine because they like God? Would it be possible? We are not talking about gluttony, drunkenness, wastefulness, and fornication here.

To be in love is to overlook some of the faults for the sake of other people, and to complement those faults. That's what God does for us. That's what your wife does for you.

YOU CAN'T DO THE SAME FOR GOD. God is perfect. You can't add anything, and you can't make or do anything so good that would have the above-described effect. That's why God laid out how you are to love Him. There's only one way really. That would be loving other people and complementing their weaknesses and their faults through our strengths. That's what church is about. That's what fixes things... not our strive for perfection for the sake of pleasing God.

[John317]

If people really love God, they will do what God says to do. Jesus Himself said, "If you love me, you will obey my commandments." It's not what we say with our mouth (or computer) but what our actual lives show, that counts.

True worship is obedience. If we obey ourselves and not God, then it's clear we may say we worship God, but in reality we worship ourselves because we put our wishes and opinions above those of God.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

And your post is a good example why you take yourself too seriously!

I can very well laugh at myself... but in this case it's used as a tactic to shoot down a point with a cheap laugh. I won't go for that.

Thanks for validating my last post.

[Bravus]

Um, your rude post was directed at Jawge, not fccool: at least try to keep your incivilities straight.

[Overaged]

Um, your rude post was directed at Jawge, not fccool: at least try to keep your incivilities straight.

Ah Bravus; how is the poor guy going to sleep with all your proclivity for incivility? (as if this bolsters your point here, eh?") Nice try.

[fccool]

You guys have a nice discussion .

[Overaged]

Don't take it so hard fc; you are always welcome here...subjects like this can get a little hot under the collar; but at the end of the day; I'll still have a drink with you. (gingerale).

[JawgeFromJawja]

I agree with you that this is what we should do, on all Bible topics, making sure the translations are accurate and dependable.

When I suggested that people read Bacchiocchi's book, I assumed they would study it along with their own Bible's and pray that God would teach them. God uses other committed Christans to help us. That is why we come to read and talk about these things on the Forum.

Very incorrect assumption, J. It's sad, but in all Christian groups I have encountered very few have read The Bible cover to cover even once. This includes SDAs, all other protestant groups, and Catholics. Unfortunately, the same finding obtains for study of doctrines and other significant topics. As far as prayer for guidance in study, a request for that gift is frequently overlooked. All too many Christians seem to have some primordial dread about studying and thinking for themselves. Let me suggest that you do some organized studies on study and prayer practices. I myself have only made frequent unorganized inquiries of Christians in these matters. With no organization of those polls, my information is totally anecdotal.

Even as I type this, God is leading me to do such formal studies. Otherwise my babblings and lamentations are only anecdotal. I can only say "wilco" to the Lord. Findings of that projected work should be very interesting to me. I would like to find my opinion about this wrong, very wrong.

I also referred to Bacchiocchi's book because it's a good example of a well-written, scholarly book that makes the case that the Bible teaches abstinance when it come to alcohol. As I say, he looks closely at every single verse dealing with the topic.

I and others on this forum disagree with the conclusion that The Bible teaches abstinence from alcohol. And I'm certainly not going to read a book with such a preconceived notion. Scholarly "work" does not necessarily lead to the truth, especially when one starts with significant bias. It is a definite truism that almost any reasonable position on any topic can appear to be supported by Scripture. Even so, as a physician, I do admonish abstinence for those who never started drinking. While alcohol usage in moderation has some definite health benefits, the ultimate outcome for for some individual drinkers is obviously not benign.

And no, John, I absolutely refuse to give up my pleasant afternoon martini. Even our good Baptist president, Jimmy Carter, enjoyed his occasional drink. Yes, I do realize that an endorsement of an idea or practice from a non-expert but well known person by no means confers legitimacy to the practice.

I was a drinker until my parents gave me his book as a gift. I knew before I read it that the Bible condemns drunkeness, but Bacchiocchi's book convinced me that the Bible goes beyond that and teaches abstinence. So I stopped drinking altogether and haven't had a drink of alcohol in any form for about five years.

Thank God for the effect of Bacchiocchi's on you. But you admit that you had a preconceived notion before reading the book, and it seems that Prof. B. also started with a preconceived notion.

However, vive la abstinence! That was said with all my heart.

(Mercy. If I keep espousing and recommending that atrocious and uncivil idea, I may start a personal reform. God forbid. I wuz raised a brutish dyed in the wool Christian Charismatic Baptist Redneck. By the way, Jesus was a Charismatic Baptist.)

Jawge

[JawgeFromJawja]

In response to:

Poster: John317

Subject: Re: Is it ok to drink alcohol...?

God's full glory-- which is the only glory there will be in heaven and on the new earth-- will destroy any sin or sinful/sinning person in his presence. Sin is anything that doesn't conform to God's character and will. That includes drinking alcohol.

Good grief, J! You are assuming without Biblical backing that drinking alcohol is a sin. And your assumed knowledge of God and God's character is baseless. Of course, God transcends any necessity for pleasures of the flesh. But I myself would never assume that God is so far beyond we fleshlings as to refuse to take on our fleshly trappings and imbibe a pleasant repast. After all, in visiting Abraham (Abram?) in the form of three beings, God partook of refreshment. Read yer Bible in toto.

But if anyone couldn't make something better than Budwieser in heaven, it would definitely be a sin that should be immediately and severely punished.:-)

How about a really good-tasting, non-alcoholic, healthy drink?

I'll settle for a Sam Adams Boston Lager, my beer of choice in this less than ideal dimension, whatever this dimension is.

Jawge

[Overaged]

Thank God for the effect of Bacchiocchi's on you. But you admit that you had a preconceived notion before reading the book, and it seems that Prof. B. also started with a preconceived notion.

Jawge

Going by your "logic" my friend; none of us will be able to discuss this topic with you again, because of your very preconceived notions here; AS ENTAILED IN YOUR ADAMANT REFUSAL to give up your daily "martini." LOL, hows that for logic? You must be one of those dudes who never drink, unless you are alone or with somebody! Cheers!

[JawgeFromJawja]

Poster: John317

Subject: Re: Is it ok to drink alcohol...?

It's true people usually have to acquire the taste for beer, and once they acquire it, they enjoy it. But really most people don't drink beer because of the taste but because of the affect. They wouldn't drink it if it wasn't for the alcohol. The reason I mentioned the beer is that others suggested they wouldn't mind having one with God in heaven.

Good grief, such bias. Don't try to convince any good German, even Adventist Germans that. I would not want to partake of an otherwise good pizza without a good beer.

Jawge - a committed Jawja Bulldog fan despite their atrocious season.

[Overaged]

In response to:

Poster: John317

Subject: Re: Is it ok to drink alcohol...?

God's full glory-- which is the only glory there will be in heaven and on the new earth-- will destroy any sin or sinful/sinning person in his presence. Sin is anything that doesn't conform to God's character and will. That includes drinking alcohol.

Good grief, J! You are assuming without Biblical backing that drinking alcohol is a sin. And your assumed knowledge of God and God's character is baseless. Of course, God transcends any necessity for pleasures of the flesh. But I myself would never assume that God is so far beyond we fleshlings as to refuse to take on our fleshly trappings and imbibe a pleasant repast. After all, in visiting Abraham (Abram?) in the form of three beings, God partook of refreshment. Read yer Bible in toto.

But if anyone couldn't make something better than Budwieser in heaven, it would definitely be a sin that should be immediately and severely punished.:-)

How about a really good-tasting, non-alcoholic, healthy drink?You are assuming it's not a sin without Biblical backing! What? Did you lose count on that "one" martini already today?

I'll settle for a Sam Adams Boston Lager, my beer of choice in this less than ideal dimension, whatever this dimension is.

Jawge

You are assuming that it is not a sin without Biblical backing! Good grief; have you lost count of your "one" martini already today??

[JawgeFromJawja]

Poster: doug yowell

Subject: Re: Is it ok to drink alcohol...?

A hard working,dope smoking, beer drinking, coworker of mine once quipped to everyone in the lunch room,"Everyone knows you only drink to get a buzz." A former CHP officer told all his traffic school "students" (I was one of them) that even 1 beer could register physically when tested. And he drank!! So you've got 2 independent witnesses to verify your conclusions.

Masculine bovine excrement.

I, for one, have many reasons for drinking.

Not the least is a good beer with a pizza.

Jawge

[JawgeFromJawja]

I agree that even one beer will change how we react. That's why I don't think it's good to drink even one. Even a little alcohol alters the thinking and kills brain cells.

John, ya wanna show me any truly credible scientific studies that show "even a little alcohol alters the thinking and kills brain cells"?

Well, yes, acute alteration in the thinking is a given, but destruction of brain cells cannot be shown.

I heard that nonsense from my Baptist youth. A lie told enough times will be believed. But how do "they" know about the conjectured destruction of brain cells? Brain biopsies? Hardly.

Even so, chronic "excessive" use of alcohol will result in brain and peripheral neurological damage. But to convey one truth, one does not have to tell lies or to exaggerate truths that are already bad enough.

Jawge

[JawgeFromJawja]

Is there honestly any doubt about it?

During the years I was drinking, I knew from reading material like that given above that drinking alcohol was wrong from the persepctive of the Bible and Ellen White's writings.

I dunno about Ellen White, but about The Bible yer wrong. John, read the whole Bible. Honestly. It's okay, even very commendable, for you not to drink. But don't drink for honest reasons. The Bible does not back you up. I do back you up.

On second thoughts, I do know about Ellen White. Much more than many Adventists. No other comments about her from me.

Jawge

[John317]

I agree with you that this is what we should do, on all Bible topics, making sure the translations are accurate and dependable.

When I suggested that people read Bacchiocchi's book, I assumed they would study it along with their own Bible's and pray that God would teach them. God uses other committed Christans to help us. That is why we come to read and talk about these things on the Forum.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Very incorrect assumption, J. It's sad, but in all Christian groups I have encountered very few have read The Bible cover to cover even once.

I never said that I assume that everyone has read the Bible from cover to cover. I said that I assume that people would study the book along with the their own Bible, and that is exactly what they should do.

[John317]

John, read the whole Bible.

I have read the whole Bible through.

This is a good time to ask you what your Bible evidence is that God's will is for His people to drink alcohol?

Let's take a close look at the evidence.

[John317]

The Bible does not back you up. I do back you up.

Where does the Bible NOT back up the concept of abstinence from alcohol?

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

On second thoughts, I do know about Ellen White. Much more than many Adventists. No other comments about her from me.

Having read Ellen White, you know she plainly makes the case for abstinecnce from alcohol. It may not mean anything to you, but at least you know what her position was on this topic.

I think everyone knows her position on drinking alcohol, which is likely the reason those who want to drink don't want to quote her on the topic of alcohol consumption.

[JawgeFromJawja]

In response to:

Poster: Bravus

Subject: Re: Is it ok to drink alcohol...?

You guys are all focusing on the 'medication' benefits of alcohol - which might be unsurprising since most of you have testified that you've used it to self-medicate in the past. But projecting your own experience on to others is unhelpful.

That's not what I had in mind at all: I was talking about the aesthetic benefits, the sheer enjoyment. (There's a whole other rant for another day about the 'medicalisation' of food and drink and its reduction to a set of nutrients rather than a blessing to be enjoyed.)

There are massive differences in taste between a glass of wine and a glass of grape juice. The fermentation and cellaring processes lead to a very rich, complex flavour in wine that is really not available in anything else. Same for beer - there is an immense range of different kinds of beers, with an amazing range of flavours, and nothing else tastes like it.

By all means feel free to say 'it's not to my taste, I don't like it'. There are lots of things I don't like the taste of. But I happen to enjoy the taste of wine and beer. I'm not drinking it to medicate any condition or balm my soul, I'm drinking it because it tastes good and because I don't believe that doing so is against God's will.

Bravus, usually I agree with you, but sometimes with qualifications.

This time -

No Qualifications

Jawge

[John317]

I also referred to Bacchiocchi's book because it's a good example of a well-written, scholarly book that makes the case that the Bible teaches abstinance when it come to alcohol. As I say, he looks closely at every single verse dealing with the topic.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

I and others on this forum disagree with the conclusion that The Bible teaches abstinence from alcohol. And I'm certainly not going to read a book with such a preconceived notion. Scholarly "work" does not necessarily lead to the truth, especially when one starts with significant bias.

How you do you know the book started with a preconceived notion? Are you yourself starting out with a preconceived notion?

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

]And no, John, I absolutely refuse to give up my pleasant afternoon martini. Even our good Baptist president, Jimmy Carter, enjoyed his occasional drink. Yes, I do realize that an endorsement of an idea or practice from a non-expert but well known person by no means confers legitimacy to the practice.

No one is insisting that you give up anything that you want to do. Even God does not insist that sinners give up their sins. He presents the evidence and the reason and He tells us what He wishes for us, but in the final analysis, He leaves it up to us to decide whether we will do the will of God or not.

Originally Posted By: John3:17

I was a drinker until my parents gave me his book as a gift. I knew before I read it that the Bible condemns drunkeness, but Bacchiocchi's book convinced me that the Bible goes beyond that and teaches abstinence. So I stopped drinking altogether and haven't had a drink of alcohol in any form for about five years.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Thank God for the effect of Bacchiocchi's on you. But you admit that you had a preconceived notion before reading the book, and it seems that Prof. B. also started with a preconceived notion.

Having read the Bible before, I did know that God's word condemns getting drunk. But I had every reason to want to believe the Bible taught that I could drink, because I drank and enjoyed drinking. So I didn't have a preconceived notion about drinking before I read the book.

Since you haven't read the book, how do you know Bacchiocchi started with a preconceived notion? Why not read the book and see what his evidence is and why he says what he does?

It sounds like are the one with preconceived notions.

Originally Posted By: Jawge...

However, vive la abstinence! That was said with all my heart.

Could have fooled me. I was about ready to ask you if it is you talking or the martini.:-)

Originally Posted By: Jawge

Mercy. If I keep espousing and recommending that atrocious and uncivil idea, I may start a personal reform. God forbid.

You mean you might actually leave aside your favorite sins that you have refused up to now to give over to Jesus? Or perhaps you are resisting serious study to find out if it is a sin or not.

God is not forbidding it, but Satan is.

[JawgeFromJawja]

]In response to:

Poster: Richard Holbrook

Subject: Re: Is it ok to drink alcohol...?

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

I am a close friend of an Adventist college professor, PhD, who has grave misgivings about Mrs. White as a prophetess.

So? What's your point? Is he supposed to be right because he is a college professor? Or is it the PhD? Does merely being adventist give credibility to his misgivings?

No, no, no, on all three accounts. Anyone who knows me knows that I am not an elitist.

The point is that there are many, many Adventists who have misgivings about the status of Mrs. White. Even Adventists in high academic positions. Even lay Adventists.

The SDA church has too much to offer for me not to give, as a close admirer, a plaintive warning. Wake up! Wake up! The status of Mrs. White is one of about six highly divisive issues that will lead to the Church's implosion if not addressed soon and with strong leadership.

Too many of you will now consider me to be an outsider meddling on others' affairs. Not so - by a wonderful 51 year marriage, I have grown very close to the SDA Church, becoming in the process much less of an outsider than vast numbers of those on church rolls who are no longer active. I will try to be a well-behaved guest, but if I have been too blunt, meddlesome, or obtrusive, please God and you forgive me.

Quote:

Then you would judge practically all of the Adventists I personally know as willful self-indulgent sinners. This judgment is always painful to me when I hear it, for most of them are devoted Christians whose salvation is assured.

Assured by who?

Why, assured by the Author of our Salvation, God Himself!

A plethora of Scripture, Old and New Testaments, addresses assurance of salvation.

And listen to beloved Fannie Crosby:

Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine!

O what a foretaste of glory divine!

Heir of salvation, purchase of God,

born of his Spirit, washed in his blood.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Jawge

[Gordon1]

And no, John, I absolutely refuse to give up my pleasant afternoon martini.

Yes Jawge, but can you give it up?

Whatever we do not overcome will overcome us.