Is it ok to drink alcohol...?

[John317]

....How then must these verses be understood:

Pro 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

Pro 31:7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

Proverbs 31:4

It is not for kings, O Lemuel,

it is not for kings to drink wine,

or for rulers to take strong drink,

Notice that this verse refers to total abstinence, not moderation. It doesn't say "much wine," but it says don't drink wine or strong drink, period.

After writing verse 4, would the same inspired writer then go on to recommend the drinking of wine and strong drink to relieve common pain or to release life's stress and tension? That would clearly be a contradiction.

So, then, what is being said in Prov. 31: 6, 7?

Notice for whom strong drink and wine is fit for--- NOT FOR KINGS AND RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE-- but rather for those who are dying and will soon perish.

It is not a command to give strong drink and wine to anyone, but it is saying, "If you are going to give alcohol to anyone, then give it be to those who are about to die."

The language of verses verses 6, 7 indicate that it's talking about people who are in a desparate and hopeless situation.

The ancient Jews interpreted it to be a recommendation to offer alcohol to people being executed.

This being the case, the verses certainly can't be used as the basis of regular, normal (or moderate) use of strong drink and fermented wine--- not unless the user is prepared to concede that he is perishing, in a desperate, hopeless situation, about to be executed?

Does that describe anyone on the Forum? Maybe so. :-)

[Bravus]

A few quick points:

1. I raised my own moderate use of alcohol in the context of repudiating nonsense that was being talked about the taste of beer. My own use does not invalidate my argument but nor does it support it - or motivate it. My motivation is as stated: seeking the truth. If you know me at all, you know that that is the underlying motivation of all my posting here.

2. Having 'no use for the prophet Ellen White' is not the point: as CoAspen has said, and I have said, doctrine must stand on the Bible alone. Ellen White has much valuable counsel, but herself said doctrine should be established on the basis of the Bible, not on the basis of her writings.

3. I have said clearly throughout that I am not advocating alcohol use at any level. In that context it would be better if the question of my own use had not arisen (it arose in a different context as noted above). Abstinence is arguably the best, safest and healthiest lifestyle choice.

4. As I have repeatedly said, there is a mass of Biblical texts against drunkenness. We're all in agreement on that. But there are no Biblical texts against moderate use of alcohol, and indeed there are a few that support such use.

I'm not sure why it's so difficult to understand. I've been unbelievably simple, clear and explicit about it.

What I care about is what the Bible actually says

And, once again, it mystifies me that those who are normally the stalwarts of the Bible as the rule of our belief and behaviour are so willing to set it aside on this issue.

[Bravus]

Of the texts quoted, some were about kings: and if read clearly were about kings avoiding drunkenness. Two others were about Nazarites, a special group. Those believing that all believers should follow the strictures of the Nazarites had better have huge hair and beards as well, if they want to be consistent.

[John317]

Of the texts quoted, some were about kings: and if read clearly were about kings avoiding drunkenness.

Prov. 31: 4 doesn't say kings can or should drink moderately, does it? Where is the suggestion that kings should merely avoid getting drunk? We already know that even small amounts of alcohol change people's thinking and reactions.

But another point is that when Proverbs is talking about "kings," it's referring to them as illustrations of everyone who is responsible. The texts are not telling us that if we are not the king, we can then impair our mental clearness and judgment. Those of us who believe we are liviing in the antitypical Day of Atonement should pay special attention to this aspect of the Bible's instruction, because if anyone needs to have clarity of mind and good judgment, it's the people living during the time of the Investigative Judgment, when it's so critical to distinguish between truth and deception. That is the context of our church's health message.

[John317]

One thing we can say for sure about people who consume a lot of alcohol on a regular basis-- their autopsies always reveal they have really clear veins and arteries. Of course their brains don't look so good and neither do their livers. Drinking apparently does have some outstanding benefits, but then again it also has its drawbacks. I guess it depends on what kind of benefits a person's looking for.

[John317]

... But I'm not seeing anyone make a solid Biblical case.

I think you will see that the Spirit of prophecy's position with respect to alcohol is thoroughly supported by the Bible. This doesn't surprise any who believe in the prophetic ministry of Ellen White, since the Spirit which inspired the Bible is the same Spirit that inspired Mrs. White's counsel on health.

[John317]

What I care about is what the Bible actually says

And, once again, it mystifies me that those who are normally the stalwarts of the Bible as the rule of our belief and behaviour are so willing to set it aside on this issue.

OK, let's study the Bible and talk about what it actually says about the consumption of alcohol.

What are your thoughts in regard to what the Bible teaches in Prov. 31: 4-8 in view of post#417677?

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

... But I'm not seeing anyone make a solid Biblical case.

I think you will see that the Spirit of prophecy's position with respect to alcohol is thoroughly supported by the Bible. This doesn't surprise any who believe in the prophetic ministry of Ellen White, since the Spirit which inspired the Bible is the same Spirit that inspired Mrs. White's counsel on health.

One thing that should be noted here; Ellen White was not the originator of this Biblical interpretation. This was not a result of a heavenly vision nor a uniquely SDA position. EGW was part of a much larger Protestant movement that held that Christians should not drink. There are still some non-Adventist Christians that hold to this admonition. Even LDS membership requirements demand total abstinence.I see the real issue as relating to how alcohol affects the Christian's spiritual and moral perceptions. If the Bible teaches "moderation" while science continues to uncover mental and physical detriments then it brings into question the reason why a Christian can choose to ignore these facts with impunity?Among others.

[doug yowell]

A few quick points:

3. I have said clearly throughout that I am not advocating alcohol use at any level. In that context it would be better if the question of my own use had not arisen (it arose in a different context as noted above). Abstinence is arguably the best, safest and healthiest lifestyle choice.

THis rationale is why it is hard for me to find the consistancy in what you are actually advocating. You state that you are not "advocating" alcohol use on any level and that abstinence is (arguably???)the best,safest,and healthiest choice.But you yourself choose to ignore that conclusion because...(it's not really true??)(The Bible hasn't yet figured it out yet??)(You don't really believe it??)(You can't seem to kick a habit you still enjoy??) On what basis do you believe that abstinence is better? Why? If that is Biblically true then why should a Christian be told that reasoning from cause to effect on alcohol is out of line?Why not go for God's best?

[Dr. Shane]

The Bible can and has been understood by itself for centuries.

Christian theology prior to the mid 1800s was vastly different than the Biblical truth most everyone on this board believes today. Ellen White stated many times that if the people would have clung to the Bible alone, there would have been no need for her ministry. BUT the great fact is that most of Christianity - Protestantism included - was clinging to myth, tradition and legend when God called Ellen White to be the lesser light to shine upon the greater light.

[Dr. Shane]

One thing that should be noted here; Ellen White was not the originator of this Biblical interpretation.

In the United States, so many people believed the Bible forbid alcohol that they succeeded in amending the Constitution to prohibit it. It is nearly impossible to amend the Constitution. It requires 2/3rds of Congress, the President and 2/3rds of all the state legislatures and governors. That didn't all happen because of Ellen White's opinion.

[there buster]

I have never used any alcohol, in fact I oppose its use as a beverage.

But . . .

Using the Bible in a proof-text approach, there are no proof texts, which, in context, mandate abstinence for all. That, is what I understand Bravus to be saying.

Can we build an argument for abstinence based on biblical principals? Yes, and a pretty strong one. But it's not like mathematics--you can't construct a proof. NPI You can't put x+y = z.

[Bravus]

I said that abstinence is 'arguably' the best position because I think it can be argued, but the arguments don't convince me. For those who are unable to control themselves - both alcoholics and simply those who need strict, rigid rules to control themselves - abstinence is the only alternative.

Looking at all the arguments and all the evidence, I see positive health benefits to using small amounts of alcohol, as well as benefits of enjoyment.

I don't *advocate* drinking because I know about the people described in the first paragraph. But I choose it for myself because I know I am capable of moderate use without abuse.

It's actually a simple, clear and consistent position. It's been arrived at rationally, looking at all the evidence, not as a weak inability to control my own behaviour.

Inability to understand this is likely to result from projection of *your* views and needs and approach to reasoning onto me. For example, if you're the kind of person with an addictive personality, or who slides immediately down any slippery slope around, then you will assume others are like you. But they're really not. I have moderately used alcohol without abusing it for decades now. It's possible.

[Dr. Shane]

The benefits alcohol offers can be found through other measures. The benefits to the heart can be found in eating fresh apples and grapes on a regular basis.

The biggest benefits of alcohol tend to be relieving stress and increasing sociability. Those things do not happen from diet. Without alcohol it takes a concentrated effort to find ways to relieve stress and socially interact with others. The faith community offers these things which is one of the reasons Adventists tend to live so long. A good prayer life and trusting God with our future goes a long way to relieving stress. A forgiving and patient attitude goes a long way toward avoiding stress in the first place. Participating in church activities like prayer meeting, vespers, AY, Pathfinders, prison ministries, etc, goes a long way to being sociable. So the benefits of alcohol can be found in other, and I believe better, ways.

[LifeHiscost]

Now I will step down from my !!

And I agree with that conclusion. The rest is a tirade of personal opinion not adhering to sola Scriptura which you readily think everyone else should use to make plain without recourse to the possibility that your own tirade will only help Cardw to see Truth if he's willing to see that All Mighty God is worth trusting.

The first thing I would suggest to help that attitude is that recognition that God gave unworthy sinners His own Son for their only chance at salvation, is not a fairy tale. The tomb is empty to prove the reality. No one will be eternally lost based solely on the stupidity of others. When we're asked to repent, it's not for the sins of others.

"Go back to what you heard and believed at first; hold to it firmly. Repent and turn to me again. If you don’t wake up, I will come to you suddenly, as unexpected as a thief."Revelation 3:3 NLT

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

But there are no Biblical texts against moderate use of alcohol, and indeed there are a few that support such use.

Unless of course one would consider that God has no wish for us to be wise and unwilling to desecrate the temple of God and He's willing to catch us lest we walk the streets of gold somewhat inebriated.

"So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God."1 Cor 10:31 NLT

"Wine is a mocker,Strong drink is a brawler, And whoever is led astray by it is not wise."Proverbs 20:2 NKJV

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise."1 Corinthians 3:16-18 KJV

God blesses!

[John317]

...The biggest benefits of alcohol tend to be relieving stress and increasing sociability. Those things do not happen from diet. Without alcohol it takes a concentrated effort to find ways to relieve stress and socially interact with others.

One of the main reasons I drank (and dropped various pills) was that I was so timid in groups of people that if I didn't take those things, I wouldn't be able to socialize. I had to get a little intoxicated in order to get up in front of my speech class in college. Once I was under the influence of either pills or alcohol, I was fine and would have a good time; but without it, I was too nervous and self-conscious to be around more than two or three people. I am still that way, but I'm learning to trust God to help me be in large groups without needing to rely on pills & alcohol to make me relax.

[John317]

I remember you posted a picture of youself with your grandpa when you were a baby. Is this the same grandpa who was in the photograph?

[fccool]

The benefit of alcohol is the stress relief associated with it... and it's generally used as such. Bible does not condemn such use:

Proverbs 31:6 Give strong drink to him who is perishing, And wine to him whose life is bitter. Let him drink and forget his poverty and remember his trouble no more.

In context it does talk about taking care of the poor and the widows. Yet, light alcoholic beverage is allowed in that context.

[doug yowell]

The benefit of alcohol is the stress relief associated with it... and it's generally used as such. Bible does not condemn such use:

Proverbs 31:6 Give strong drink to him who is perishing, And wine to him whose life is bitter. Let him drink and forget his poverty and remember his trouble no more.

In context it does talk about taking care of the poor and the widows. Yet, light alcoholic beverage is allowed in that context.

Would the Bible ,then,allow the medicinal use of alcohol for the healing of the heart in lieu of "...and you will find rest unto your souls."??

[John317]

The benefit of alcohol is the stress relief associated with it... and it's generally used as such. Bible does not condemn such use:

Proverbs 31:6 Give strong drink to him who is perishing, And wine to him whose life is bitter. Let him drink and forget his poverty and remember his trouble no more.

In context it does talk about taking care of the poor and the widows. Yet, light alcoholic beverage is allowed in that context.

But it is not telling people that they should give alchohol to the poor and to widows.

If we read Prov. 31: 4-7 in context, it is scarcely a recommendation to drink alcohol. It is actually saying that if you're a responsible person (such as a king), you won't drink it. And if you're going to give alcohol to anyone, let it be to a dying person or someone in a desperate, hopeless situation.

Proverbs 31:4

It is not for kings, O Lemuel,

it is not for kings to drink wine,

or for rulers to take strong drink,

This verse refers to total abstinence, not moderation.

After saying that kings and rulers should not drink alcohol at all, the same writer wouldn't recommend the drinking of alcohol for the purpose of relieving common pain or releasing life's stress and tension. Those two counsels don't fit together.

[fccool]

You are making an assumption here, and saying that the writer did not say what he just did . It's like me taking your words above and saying:

Well, John does not really mean what he says. What he really means is ...

There's a stark contrast in that passage.

Kings = have everything

poor = have nothing

Kings = comfort

poor = suffering

Kings = should be responsible

poor = should be comforted

It's not dealing with abstinence from alcohol, neither does it advocate "drowning your sorrows" in it. But it does show that there are various degrees of "freedom". Levites were not allowed to drink alcohol. Why would such distinction to be made if that was the order for every Israelite out there?

But their responsibility was too great since the livelihood of the nation was on their shoulders. The same is with advice to kings in this context. Let's not say "Well... he does not really say". If the writer did not really intent to say that ... he would stay away from confusion and say that neither should do it.

[fccool]

All of this aside, John. Let me bring a different question to you.

So far, the main argument that has been served is the health one. I.E. we should abstain from anything that would damage our health or cause us to think clearly. Even a small amount of bad is still bad.

We know that refined sugar is terrible for human body. It's addictive, Greeks did not even have a word for it... to show you that it's a recent development, it damages and transforms the body slowly, impedes clear thinking, and causes tooth decay... the list goes on and on.

My question is... what do you think about desert table at the potluck? Should people abstain from it all together in fear of overeating, or should they enjoy it in moderation?

[Dr. Shane]

I don't think honey is much healthier than refined sugar. I don't see any warning in the Bible regarding honey.

[Dr. Shane]

Proverbs 31:6 Give strong drink to him who is perishing, And wine to him whose life is bitter. Let him drink and forget his poverty and remember his trouble no more.

This appears to be instructing someone to use alcohol as an anti-depressant. Doesn't it? Yet, alcohol is a depressant not an anti-depressant. So this verse cannot be an instruction to use it as an anti-depressant unless the author was clueless about what he was writing. The only understanding of this verse to me is that it is an instruction to give alcohol to someone who is dying.