Is it ok to drink alcohol...?

[Overaged]

You need to be able to separate out different topics and arguments in order to argue a case clearly, however.

[Bravus]

There are many accidents now being caused by texting and driving. Do we ban cellphones outright? Or do we ban using them while driving, enforce that and undertake public education on the issue?

The argument about 'handling' alcohol is a response to an issue raised. By others what is being said is "I do not abuse alcohol by drinking to excess or drinking and driving". It's akin to saying "I used prescription painkillers for a short while after being injured but did not abuse them by becoming injured." Or, indeed, saying "I use my mobile phone for sending text messages but never abuse it by doing that while driving."

Does the abuse of alcohol cause terrible suffering? Absolutely. Is alcohol something that has the potential to be abused? Definitely.

To claim, as you have, that there is no such thing as use, only abuse, is just not something at all supported by the evidence.

Again, telling the truth is important.

It's possible to be passionately antialcohol without straying beyond what is unarguably true.

[Guest]

I am a close friend of an Adventist college professor, PhD, who has grave misgivings about Mrs. White as a prophetess.

[LifeHiscost]

To claim, as you have, that there is no such thing as use, only abuse, is just not something at all supported by the evidence.

Again, telling the truth is important.

The same argument could be used for the use of "crystal meth".

Lot's of luck with that one.

God blesses!

[Bravus]

Clean methamphetamine, produced in a pharmaceutical laboratory rather than cooked in a backyard lab with scrounged ingredients and equipment, was used as a weight-control drug for many years. It ended up being withdrawn from the market largely due to the 'War on Drugs', but does in fact have a medically appropriate use... as well as being open to abuse.

Look, I'm not advocating drug use, or alcohol use.

Again (again again again), knowing the truth and telling the truth is important.

[LifeHiscost]

Here's the problem. You are saying that God is not going to tell people everything... i.e. he did not tell them everything, UNTIL E.G.White came up on the scene. Then details were revealed through her.

Why?

Could the answer be in her comment that if the Bible had been read(and perhaps practiced) as it should have, there would never have been any need for the Spirit of Prophecy.

She also pointed out that if people had followed His instruction from the beginning as they should have, there never would have been a need for the Bible.

Inordinate use of that which is harmful only perniciously, leads to eventual irreparable damage. The use of money and credit isn't sinful, but the pernicious use of both has led the U.S. into brinkmanship with total economic collapse, until every man woman and child in America is in debt somewhere between $1,000,000 and $2,000,000.

The inordinate use of alcohol is another major factor in the almost irreparable economic collapse of our country. There is no such thing as "I'll just abuse it a little, it won't hurt".

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Anyone who believes that everything EGW wrote - the counsels and letters, not just the visions - is prophecy direct from God has no choice but to completely abstain from alcohol, tobacco, tea and coffee.

And this is just what this person has made effort to do for the last 50 some odd years. This hasn't made me holy, for there have been shortcomings in the effort along the way, but it has helped to make me healthy (as one method the grace of God uses).

Today at 77, I have no chronic pain. I have only God's insurance to take care of me in my health issues. That doesn't mean I've never been ill. It does mean when I got ill, a pleasant reminder to Him of His promises that motivated my dependence on Him, returned the health I had up to the time of the illness.

Only in the Kingdom will I learn the extent of His care that has kept me from the grave, as well as a whole lot less pain in the meantime. Praise be to His extended grace to a sinner such as I, who early on chose to be serious about doing what you suggested above, albeit faulty effort.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

We do not preach EGW to the world, we preach Christ.

Couldn't agree with you more. And some are unable at times to realize that God spoke His instruction to man through His chosen.

When giving a Bible study, it is not uncommon to say, "and the apostle John wrote", leaving it up to the Holy Spirit to convince that He was speaking through the individual, not only that quoted John, but through John himself.

Such it is with quoting from any one God has chosen to speak for Him. And as long as a person is making effort to destroy the influence of one of God's spokespersons, it can be easily seen which spirit is leading the detractor, not necessarily by evil intent of the detractor.

"One doth judge one day above another, and another doth judge every day [alike]; let each in his own mind be fully assured."Romans 14:5 YLT

God blesses!

[Overaged]

Clean methamphetamine, produced in a pharmaceutical laboratory rather than cooked in a backyard lab with scrounged ingredients and equipment, was used as a weight-control drug for many years. It ended up being withdrawn from the market largely due to the 'War on Drugs', but does in fact have a medically appropriate use... as well as being open to abuse.

Look, I'm not advocating drug use, or alcohol use.

Again (again again again), knowing the truth and telling the truth is important.

Bravus; you are a smart man. You know a lot of stuff. (even more than me, lol), but you really make me wonder with this kind of anecdotal, circumstantial opinonating. What you say simply does not prove or mean that "It's OK to drink alcohol." And certainly, there is no Bible support for what you say.

I don't know how on earth you can make such a connection to alcohol drinking from this.

[Overaged]

quote=Bravus] Anyone who believes that everything EGW wrote - the counsels and letters, not just the visions - is prophecy direct from God has no choice but to completely abstain from alcohol, tobacco, tea and coffee. /quote]

And this is just what this person has made effort to do for the last 50 some odd years. This hasn't made me holy, for there have been shortcomings in the effort along the way, but it has helped to make me healthy (as one method the grace of God uses).

Today at 77, I have no chronic pain. I have only God's insurance to take care of me in my health issues. That doesn't mean I've never been ill. It does mean when I got ill, a pleasant reminder to Him of His promises that motivated my dependence on Him, returned the health I had up to the time of the illness.

Only in the Kingdom will I learn the extent of His care that has kept me from the grave, as well as a whole lot less pain in the meantime. Praise be to His extended grace to a sinner such as I, who early on chose to be serious about doing what you suggested above, albeit faulty effort.

God blesses!

Good post LHC.

[Bravus]

The methamphetamine post was a direct response to a direct question from LifeHisCost. And it wasn't 'anecdotal opinionating', it was fact. Look it up.

[doug yowell]

First of all, I don't drink... and have not been drinking since I was a kid... growing up in nation where people drink since they are 7-8.

What I hear a lot on this thread is "I choose to abstain from ALL harmful substances"...

It echoes a lot to me of "All that Lord asks of us we will do... now sprinkle us with some blood please and tell us how we are more special than other nations around us".

See what I mean,cool, just agreeing with the idea that it's ok to drink has started to take it's toll on your perceptions! Good thing you don't drink!

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: fccool

First of all, I don't drink... and have not been drinking since I was a kid... growing up in nation where people drink since they are 7-8.

What I hear a lot on this thread is "I choose to abstain from ALL harmful substances"...

It echoes a lot to me of "All that Lord asks of us we will do... now sprinkle us with some blood please and tell us how we are more special than other nations around us".

See what I mean,cool, just agreeing with the idea that it's ok to drink has started to take it's toll on your perceptions! Good thing you don't drink!

Amen!

[Overaged]

The methamphetamine post was a direct response to a direct question from LifeHisCost. And it wasn't 'anecdotal opinionating', it was fact. Look it up.

The implied CONTEXT of those alleged "facts" is what I was referring to by "anecdotal," and "opinionating."

[Overaged]

See what I mean,cool, just agreeing with the idea that it's ok to drink has started to take it's toll on your perceptions! Good thing you don't drink!

[JawgeFromJawja]

I stand by that. Every text that has been suggested so far as making the case for complete abstinence has fallen at one (or some combination) of three hurdles:

1. It has been explicitly about drunkenness rather than moderate use. I have already stipulated the strong Biblical case against drunkenness.

2. It has applied to special narrow classes of people such as kings or the Nazarites... and if the application is to spread that to all people, why not the other requirements of the Nazarites such as no shaves or haircuts?

3. It has involved circular reasoning, already assuming alcohol to be evil. The notion of the body as a temple falls into this category - drinking water does not desecrate the temple. Drinking alcohol desecrates the temple only if we assume alcohol is bad (in moderation) and that case has not been made. The same applies to the 'having a beer with Jesus' arguments - they appeal to existing assumptions rather than evidence.

None of those hurdles is 'explaining away' Scripture nor applying private interpretations. They involve looking at the actual Scriptures and what they say.

And I believe these three hurdles account for all the Scriptures offered so far in this thread. I'm prepared to examine more Scriptures, or to be shown how I'm wrong in relation to the ones already considered.

Bravo, Bravus!

This endorsement from a reasonably healthy (spiritually, mentally, and physically) ole coot who likes his single afternoon martini, and who opines that the Bible implies that Jesus drank the stronger stuff - in moderation and when appropriate, such as wedding feasts.

Even so, an endorsement from a stodgy old doc who thinks it best not to start imbibing alcohol if yer don't already. The medical jury is still out on that one.

Jawge

[Dr. Shane]

Adventists are called to spread the Three Angels' Message. We are an end-time movement. I believe we have been called to a special lifestyle. Much of the health reform that came to us through Ellen White came to her in vision. I do not think it is something we should take lightly. I do believe that total abstinence is God's will for His people at this time.

[fccool]

See what I mean,cool, just agreeing with the idea that it's ok to drink has started to take it's toll on your perceptions! Good thing you don't drink!

The above is a very good reason that people don't take churches seriously .

[JawgeFromJawja]

These type of question do bother me, because they bring up religion in context of "it's ok" and "it's not ok".

I.E. What can I really do to make sure God is not angry with me? These type of questions completely neglect the life in context of free-willing human being.

Really falls into the same category as:

1) Is it ok to tell a white lie to save someone?

2) Is it ok to watch TV on Saturday?

3) Is it ok to have sex before marriage?

It really becomes the issue of walking the boundaries instead of living out your life to its full potential. ---

1) Alcohol is highly toxic. I.E. it's a poison... that's why people wake up hung over and throwing up (depending on how much they ingest).

2) Alcohol can make you feel good and warm, and relaxed and "happy"... hence it's a popular social drink for that reason. But so is XTC, cocaine and marijuana for the same reasons in many circles.

3) There are plenty of better ways to enjoy non-harmful and beneficial drinks and have relaxing social experience than drinking alcohol. --- justifiable during the times of lacking refrigeration---

Today, we have a culture built around it that carries the context of sophistication, but is rather vain in my opinion... as vain as lighting up a cigarette. Does nothing good for you, other than make you feel good for a moment, but has damaging effect under the hood.

So, the real question is not rather "if it's ok to do something", but "Why would I want to do something that's harmful to me (in various degrees)?"

My answers would be:

1) Curiosity

2) Social and peer pressure

3) Need for escape and relaxation

4) Because it feels good

Personally, none of the four above are enough for me to cancel out the harmful effect which is fairly established---

If other people can drink with minimal side-effects... fine with me. I'm not going to hover over them with a Bible and E.G.White statements. It's not really an issue of following God's purpose. It's really an issue of doing what's best for you.... but the latter does not have the context of high-horse religious lecturing to all of the "unenlightened". I.E. "You neglect the sacred advice from God's prophet (implying that God is displeased and that the act of not listening is bigger than the harmful effects)".

Very cool post, FCCool.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

See what I mean,cool, just agreeing with the idea that it's ok to drink has started to take it's toll on your perceptions! Good thing you don't drink!

The above is a very good reason that people don't take churches seriously .

And your post is a good example why you take yourself too seriously!

[fccool]

And your post is a good example why you take yourself too seriously!

I can very well laugh at myself... but in this case it's used as a tactic to shoot down a point with a cheap laugh. I won't go for that.

[Dr. Shane]

What can I really do to make sure God is not angry with me?

The majority of Americans believe in an angry God. As an Adventist that amazes me. Adventism is all about love. We are not afraid of an angry God. We are head-over-heels, beside ourselves, in love with a God Who first loved us. Adventism is all about love.

The reason God wants His end-time people not to drink is so that we can be sober-minded and vigilant. There are hundreds of religions out there and we must not be deceived by any of the false ones and must carry the truth to the world. God does not ask us to give up anything that is beneficial to us. So we give up something not because we fear Him getting angry. Nooooooooooooooooooooo! We give up things because we trust that He knows what is best for us.

[JawgeFromJawja]

GROWING NEW BRAIN CELLS

For decades scientists believed that the number of nerve cells in the adult brain was fixed early in life. --- In the 1960s, however, researchers found that new neurons are indeed generated in adulthood—a process called neurogenesis (29). These new cells originate from stem cells ---

--- high doses of alcohol lead to a disruption in the growth of new brain cells; ---

Alcohol Does Not Kill Brain Cells

to qualify that title, pure alcohol will absolutely kill brain cells and many other types of cells, which is why it is used as a disinfectant. However, recent research has shown that the quantity of alcohol you could possibly take in, without killing yourself, does not introduce enough alcohol into your bloodstream to kill brain cells. ---in matched samples of non-alcoholics and alcoholics --- there was no real difference in the density or overall number of neurons between the two groups. Various other research since has backed up Jensen’s findings. Thus, even alcoholics who are continually taking in unhealthy amounts of alcohol aren’t going to see brain cells die because of their drinking problem. However, alcohol does have other effects on the brain, both positive and negative, that have nothing to do with brain cells dying.

From my far away youth until even now, I have been informed by various and sundry experts, usually non-medical or non-biological science trained individuals, that alcohol in any quantity kills "thus and such" many brain cells. Just a little critical thinking (critical thinking is an aspect of common sense) will lead to the question, "How do 'they' know that?" The answer is that "they" do not know that.

Even so, as CoAspen points out, long term alcohol exposure is toxic to many types cells, including brain and other neurological cells. Usually the dosages needed for such damage are high to very high, over a long period of time. However, every living being is different, even different from its immediate ancestors, making damaging dosages of alcohol and damaging duration of use and damaging frequency of use quite variable.

There are even sex differences in damaging doses of alcohol. Unfortunately, on the average, women are twice as susceptible as men to alcoholic nerve cell damage.

Bottom lines: 1. It is probably best not to start drinking if you don't already.

2. If you do drink, watch-it! Closely monitor your intake, frequency, and personal effects of drinking.

JawgeFromJawja

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

a shot of whiskey in the 1930's saved the life of my uncle when he was going into shock and hypothermia..

and why hasn't anyone brought up the 2 texts in 1 Timothy relating to the use of wine?

1 Timothy 3:8 Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain.

1 Timothy 5:23 No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.

Almost seems like there is a time for everything under the sun...

**going back to my corner**

[Overaged]

a shot of whiskey in the 1930's saved the life of my uncle when he was going into shock and hypothermia..

and why hasn't anyone brought up the 2 texts in 1 Timothy relating to the use of wine?

1 Timothy 3:8 Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain.

1 Timothy 5:23 No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.

Almost seems like there is a time for everything under the sun...

**going back to my corner**

Thanks for peeking out from your "corner," Pam. Do it again soon!