Men and Church

[there buster]

Our church has been successful not only in retaining young adults, but in re-connecting men (rom 20-40+) who have become disenchanted.

A few examples:

A 30 something Ph.D. candidate (Economics)

A 20 something marketer for a communications company

A 20 something former Marine and current security guard

A 40 something nuclear engineer

A 50 something mechanical engineer

A 50 something facilities manger

Some were raised Adventists, and some not.

The same basic approach has had excellent response with young adults across North America, with men in men's retreats, and with lots of other audiences and groups. It's a combination of what is discussed and how it's approached.

I didn't see where these statistics came from, but they look pretty accurate to me.

Quote:

For example, for every 10 men-

9 will have children who leave the church

8 will not find thier jobs satisfying

6 will pay minimum monthly payments

5 will have major problems with pornography

4 will get divorced-affecting 1,000,000 children each year

only one will have a biblical balance worldview

all 10 will struggle with balancing work and home

The only thing I would add is that a friend of mine who works in this area tells me that the pornography stat is the same for Adventist pastors.

Churches are not seen by men in general as "over feminized," they are seen as irrelevant and boring--at best.

As far as rational vs. emotional goes, that is more complex than so far has been discussed. If I had to use one word for the approach that works--always a reductionist exercise-- I think it would be practical.

P.S. I posted this here so as not to interfere with the other thread.

[John317]

Excellent and very relevant post, "there buster."

[LifeHiscost]

Excellent and very relevant post, "there buster."

I appreciated the effort made to research for the benefit of accuracy, not to mention hopefully putting to rest unwarranted accusations of delinquent behavior.

God blesses!

[Gary K]

Our church has been successful not only in retaining young adults, but in re-connecting men (rom 20-40+) who have become disenchanted.

A few examples:

A 30 something Ph.D. candidate (Economics)

A 20 something marketer for a communications company

A 20 something former Marine and current security guard

A 40 something nuclear engineer

A 50 something mechanical engineer

A 50 something facilities manger

Some were raised Adventists, and some not.

The same basic approach has had excellent response with young adults across North America, with men in men's retreats, and with lots of other audiences and groups. It's a combination of what is discussed and how it's approached.

I didn't see where these statistics came from, but they look pretty accurate to me.

Quote:

For example, for every 10 men-

9 will have children who leave the church

8 will not find thier jobs satisfying

6 will pay minimum monthly payments

5 will have major problems with pornography

4 will get divorced-affecting 1,000,000 children each year

only one will have a biblical balance worldview

all 10 will struggle with balancing work and home

The only thing I would add is that a friend of mine who works in this area tells me that the pornography stat is the same for Adventist pastors.

Churches are not seen by men in general as "over feminized," they are seen as irrelevant and boring--at best.

As far as rational vs. emotional goes, that is more complex than so far has been discussed. If I had to use one word for the approach that works--always a reductionist exercise-- I think it would be practical.

P.S. I posted this here so as not to interfere with the other thread.

[there buster]

Quote:

I see one reason for the entire list. All of these are symptoms of a poor relationship with God, and they come from having a poor understanding of the world from a Biblical perspective.

I don't think there is any serious disagreement with those points. The problem is how to present these to contemporary men in a way that catches their interest.

We have an approach that works. And I emphasize again, if there's one word that describes the effective approach, it's practical.

We do indeed talk about relationships, among other things, but not in terms of either theory or righteousness, and certainly not obedience. We talk in terms of living better, at home, at work, and everywhere else.

Men are eager to talk about relationships when these things are presented in ways that both challenge and empower them.

[Dr. Shane]

We need to be relevant by offering something that meets a need. Teaching men how to run a household financially, parenting skills, freedom from addiction, how to balance work and family, how to deal with stress and anxiety. Indeed practical "tools" for living life.

[Neil D]

I see one reason for the entire list. All of these are symptoms of a poor relationship with God, and they come from having a poor understanding of the world from a Biblical perspective.

I speak from experience as I'm someone who spent more than a decade in active drug and porn addiction, have had problems with life/work balance as all addicts do, and my step children are both out of the church. Add to that the fact that I experienced severe psychological abuse from the time I was 3 or 4 years old until I moved out of my parent's house. All that said, the only reason I go to church is to meet with God. Any other reason for going to church is of little spiritual value.

The family I grew up in was very dysfunctional. I was the the focal point on which everyone else in the family unloaded all their anger and frustration. My old man was a dry drunk from the time of my birth until the day he died, and I was his very special target for unloading all his anger and frustrations on, so I've seen the depths to which sin can drive human beings very close up. My mother was co-dependent in a big way. My older brother is as cruel a person as I've ever had the misfortune meet. My little brother considers me to not be worth knowing, and that the most I'll ever be to him is an acquaintance. He's told me that in those exact words in response to an attempt on my part to build a relationship with him.

The only solution for me is earnestly seeking a continuous life-changing relationship with God. Staying closely connected with Him solves all those problems in my life. Breaking that relationship--not earnestly pursuing it at all times, being careless about that relationship--always brings those problems back into my life.

Only living life by the principles taught in the Bible and the SoP, and trusting God completely for redemption--now and the hope of heaven--and the power to change my life allows me to live a normal life. So, when I say more of God and less of man is the only solution, I speak from deep personal experience. I know what it took to change my life, to rescue me from the natural outgrowth of all the sinful behavior directed my way, and I have complete confidence in saying the same will work for anyone else.

Knowing God is the only answer to the problems that exist in the church. Nothing, and nobody, else has the power to change lives, to change motivations, to implant the love of God in the heart. Modern psychology is useless. Scientific studies are useless. None of them will point a person to the only Being capable of healing the human heart. Only God can do that.

I can't help but wonder what you would have been like if a Godly Christian man took you under his wing at an early age, and modeled what God was like in his relationship to you, how would you have turned out?

That is what men's ministry is all about....not only are they interested in young men, becoming a model citizen, but modeling what christ is like here on this earth...

[Gary K]

Originally Posted By: Gary K

I see one reason for the entire list. All of these are symptoms of a poor relationship with God, and they come from having a poor understanding of the world from a Biblical perspective.

I speak from experience as I'm someone who spent more than a decade in active drug and porn addiction, have had problems with life/work balance as all addicts do, and my step children are both out of the church. Add to that the fact that I experienced severe psychological abuse from the time I was 3 or 4 years old until I moved out of my parent's house. All that said, the only reason I go to church is to meet with God. Any other reason for going to church is of little spiritual value.

The family I grew up in was very dysfunctional. I was the the focal point on which everyone else in the family unloaded all their anger and frustration. My old man was a dry drunk from the time of my birth until the day he died, and I was his very special target for unloading all his anger and frustrations on, so I've seen the depths to which sin can drive human beings very close up. My mother was co-dependent in a big way. My older brother is as cruel a person as I've ever had the misfortune meet. My little brother considers me to not be worth knowing, and that the most I'll ever be to him is an acquaintance. He's told me that in those exact words in response to an attempt on my part to build a relationship with him.

The only solution for me is earnestly seeking a continuous life-changing relationship with God. Staying closely connected with Him solves all those problems in my life. Breaking that relationship--not earnestly pursuing it at all times, being careless about that relationship--always brings those problems back into my life.

Only living life by the principles taught in the Bible and the SoP, and trusting God completely for redemption--now and the hope of heaven--and the power to change my life allows me to live a normal life. So, when I say more of God and less of man is the only solution, I speak from deep personal experience. I know what it took to change my life, to rescue me from the natural outgrowth of all the sinful behavior directed my way, and I have complete confidence in saying the same will work for anyone else.

Knowing God is the only answer to the problems that exist in the church. Nothing, and nobody, else has the power to change lives, to change motivations, to implant the love of God in the heart. Modern psychology is useless. Scientific studies are useless. None of them will point a person to the only Being capable of healing the human heart. Only God can do that.

I can't help but wonder what you would have been like if a Godly Christian man took you under his wing at an early age, and modeled what God was like in his relationship to you, how would you have turned out?

That is what men's ministry is all about....not only are they interested in young men, becoming a model citizen, but modeling what christ is like here on this earth...

Had my parents been truly converted, filled with Christ's love, our family would have been completely different. They would have been loving instead of cruel. Only the deep abiding love of Christ living in the human heart can make that possible. Education of any type can't do that. Yes, it would have been great if the church had made a difference or if my parents had actually been converted Christians. However, I'm grateful for everything I've had to go through, for it has taught me that I must depend on God for everything, and because of that I understand what God can do much better than anyone who hasn't had to live through the things I have.

What you don't seem to understand, Neil, is that Christ is the only answer for filling the needs of men. I didn't overcome all that I had to go through by anything other than an abiding relationship with God. There truly is healing in His wings.

Remember Christ's lament when He looked at Jerusalem before His crucifixion? Oh, how often would I have gathered ye under my wings, but ye would not. We've been told over and over again that we are following in the steps of the Jews of Christ's day. They were satisified with an intellectual religion. They considered knowing Him as something of less value than intellectual pursuits.

When the disciples finally understood what Christ was wanting them to understand, which never happened until after His death and resurrection, those 12 uneducated, unsophisticated men changed the world. They did that by connecting with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit gave them everything they needed. The Holy Spirit can do the same thing today if we will only allow Him to do it. He can't do what He would like to do through us today because we don't allow Him to. We don't look to Him. We look to ourselves and our knowledge. We need to stop following in the footsteps of the Jews, and allow Christ to do for us what He wanted to do for the Jews.

We don't need studies. We don't need our own ideas as to what will work. We need the same thing the disciples needed, the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit. Then we can preach the gospel with power. Then we will draw all men to us, for we will have Christ in us, and He said, I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me. Do you believe that, or do you believe you can do better than Christ Himself?

It is the Holy Spirit's job to draw men, to soften their hearts. It's our job represent the love of God and to allow the Holy Spirit to use us. Nothing else will work. We can't do the work of the Holy Spirit. We're foolish to even imagine we can do the work God has set aside for His Spirit.

We don't need to offer people the same thing the world does. They already have that in abundance. We need to offer them something they can't get anywhere else. We need to offer them the risen Savior. It's the peace of Christ that they need. Nothing else can satisfy their sin sick souls. Nothing else can give them peace of mind and healing of heart.

[Bravus]

I completely agree. That is correct.

But someone still has to make a whole heap of decisions during the week. Hymns or choruses? Hymn books or PowerPoint? Drama or no drama? Drums or no drums? Three songs or seven (or none)? Short sermon or long sermon (or none)? Male or female speaker? And so on and so on.

At one level, it doesn't matter: as you say, with Christ any set of circumstances will 'work', without Him none will.

But there buster's church is clearly being effective, and is also clearly being intentional about some of these things, and no doubt other things.

I'd be very interested to hear more about that.

[Gary K]

I completely agree. That is correct.

But someone still has to make a whole heap of decisions during the week. Hymns or choruses? Hymn books or PowerPoint? Drama or no drama? Drums or no drums? Three songs or seven (or none)? Short sermon or long sermon (or none)? Male or female speaker? And so on and so on.

At one level, it doesn't matter: as you say, with Christ any set of circumstances will 'work', without Him none will.

But there buster's church is clearly being effective, and is also clearly being intentional about some of these things, and no doubt other things.

I'd be very interested to hear more about that.

But what is Buster's church being successful at doing? That's the important question.

Is it successfully creating committed Christians full of the love of God, which is our commission from God, or is it boosting attendance by feeding people something less than the Gospel? From his reply to me I see it to be the latter. It certainly doesn't appear it is teaching people what God requires of them, and that is bad. You can't show people the power of the Gospel unless you show them the entire Gospel.

And what is it "empowering" people to do? It sounds just as good as Obama's "hope and change", but what does it really mean? It's completely ambiguous as it stands.

[fccool]

I completely agree. That is correct.

But someone still has to make a whole heap of decisions during the week. Hymns or choruses? Hymn books or PowerPoint? Drama or no drama? Drums or no drums? Three songs or seven (or none)? Short sermon or long sermon (or none)? Male or female speaker? And so on and so on.

I disagree. If you really think about it, then our modern church experience is like grade-school. All of the pews facing in one direction. 4-5 people speak or lead with the rest repeating and "amening". An that becomes the church experience to which most of the resources are geared to... i.e. making sure that there's a song service, special music, and a 30 minute lecture. And if it seems boring and mundane, it chalked up to the "spiritual health" of the receiver. I.E. if you have a right relationship with God, then it would interest you to sit through 20minute concert (same songs year after year), and 30 minute lecture. That's what most of the people end up coming to. Not the Sabbath school... which in my opinion reflects the purpose of the church a bit more than what follows.

I'd have to say that I'm rather disappointed with the above quote... especially coming from Bravus, because these are the things that become "church experience", and these are the things that are by nature very rigid with static audience. We do have "show and tell" once in a while but it becomes a list of "God did this for me today..." rather than... "from my experience, this is how you can be a better human being". Both validate the Bible, but differently. One is more pragmatic... the other depends on "spiritual intervention" (which is rather placeboic imo)

I'll give you an honest example here.

A person standing up and saying "Today I've accepted Jesus into my life and he helped me to overcome alcoholism overnight! I have no cravings for alcohol! Praise the Lord"... which usually follows by thunderous applause from the audience and chorus of amens and "praise the Lord"s for the miracle.

But this statement is rather vague IMO and does not offer any practical help to Christians who do have relationship with God but fail to overcome their drinking habits. They really try. They really do read their Bibles and pray... but when rubber meets the road, their habits and addictions get the better of them.

And the cure that presented in church is not practical. It supernatural. So, they pray harder, they read their Bibles harder... and they fall harder, while what they really need is some down-to-earth practical means and advice of dealing with addiction.

That really applies to virtually anything... pornography, finances, family, politics, jobs and skills, relationships. That practical part of the church I see lacking, and to me that's what the church strength should be because that's the information that eventually fixes people. There's nothing "supernatural" about it. It's natural... but people arrive at it by different means. Some need that placebo experience in their lives to do the work... and they largely become depended on it. They need God's help financially, physically, mentally... you name it.

And they don't realize that eventually it's the right information that ends up doing the "fixing work"... with them doing the work. Sure, the information is given by God, and sure there are possible miracles... but from my experience that's not how it works! People do the work based on certain information given. If information is the saving pill, people still have to do the work of getting the glass of water and swallowing it.

So, in order to sound more miraculous and spiritual ... that work is ascribed to God and it becomes rather vague and meaningless. So it would seem that all one has to do is to pray and wait, and God will "do the work". It's rather vague. If God enables one to do the work, then there has to be an information channel with instructions on how to do it. Even in the Bible it's usually "Go there and do this, and this will happen". Today it becomes "Lord, I'm really low on money... here's your 10%" ... "Honey... look, a surprise payment from a late client! Thank you Lord! It's truly a miracle" ... (chorus of amens follow).

That's where I really do appreciate E.G.White. No matter how rigid she may seem, the woman is pragmatic. Need more of that in modern context as more issues are arising in our culture that we are completely avoiding.

[Neil D]

What you don't seem to understand, Neil, is that Christ is the only answer for filling the needs of men. I didn't overcome all that I had to go through by anything other than an abiding relationship with God. There truly is healing in His wings.

Remember Christ's lament when He looked at Jerusalem before His crucifixion? Oh, how often would I have gathered ye under my wings, but ye would not. We've been told over and over again that we are following in the steps of the Jews of Christ's day. They were satisified with an intellectual religion. They considered knowing Him as something of less value than intellectual pursuits.

Gary,

Why won't you let Christ work in me as He has in you?

Why must I conform to your understanding as to how Christ works?

Paul said, "Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you, will perform it, until the day of Jesus Christ."

Paul let God work in others...He did not micromanage them...

If that attitude was good enough for Paul, why is it not good enough for you?

[Gary K]

We need to be relevant by offering something that meets a need. Teaching men how to run a household financially, parenting skills, freedom from addiction, how to balance work and family, how to deal with stress and anxiety. Indeed practical "tools" for living life.

Shane,

How is introducing people to Jesus Christ irrelevant? With the love of Christ in the heart all these other matters will be taken care of because someone will lovingly, carefully, address the issue with them.

I'll give you an example from when I was a kid. My old man worked with a guy that was an alcoholic. He'd drink his entire paycheck up in the bar on the weekend and his family would go hungry and his wife and kids wore rags.

After He met Christ, he stopped drinking completely. It was a miracle in every sense of the word. He was so on fire for God that he'd sign his paycheck and put it into the offering plate. He was so grateful for what God had done for him that his family was still going hungry and basically living in the gutter. So, the pastor took him aside and explained how things worked in a kind manner. After that, because he was wanting to learn and humble enough to take advice, he gave much more intelligently. His family had food and decent clothes, and he asked for more information oh how to handle his money. He was fortunate that he was in a church where people took a personal interest in him and family. He became a contributing member of society at large, and of the church. Within a couple of years he was ordained as an elder.

Introducing people to Christ is, to borrow a phrase, job one. That opens the door for change in their life, and then people who have the love of Christ in their heart can minister to them individually. That was Christ's method. He worked person-to-person. He didn't give seminars on how to handle money, or on how to be responsible. Those things are ancillary issues that are to be addressed invidually after the heart is softened with the love of Christ.

Don't get me wrong. I've been in a 12 step program. I do see use for it as long as people are pointed to God, not some ambiguous "higher power". It was in a 12 step program that I first learned that I wasn't completely alone in the world. I should have been able to learn that at church, but I couldn't. There wasn't enough love in the church for me to learn that there. The only solution for the lack of love is making sure the church is full of committed Christians filled with the Holy Spirit.

The biggest reason new converts leave the church is because of a lack of friends. I find that pitiful within a Christian organization. I also find it to be symptomatic of a lack of the presence of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the church members.

Ministries cannot take the place of friendship for people go to their friends for advice and help much more easily and comfortably than they do to a public meeting. Friendships, though, can completely replace any need for a formal ministry in all but the most special of needs, such as a 12 step program where the average person cannot truly understand the pull of addiction. However, it's the friendships you make, the advice to look to God, and the holding of one another accountable without being judgmental, that you find inside 12 step programs that makes them work.

[Neil D]

what you have described, gary, is called "discipling'.....

and you and shane are on the same page......How do you and Shane differ?

[fccool]

Quote:

How is introducing people to Jesus Christ irrelevant? With the love of Christ in the heart all these other matters will be taken care of because someone will lovingly, carefully, address the issue with them.

It's not irrelevant. It's vague. I mean really... here's an example of "evangelism" at work and how people are "introduced to Christ":

[Gary K]

what you have described, gary, is called "discipling'.....

and you and shane are on the same page......How do you and Shane differ?

Shane seems to think there is a need for formal meetings, called ministries, to disciple people. I find that a poor substitute for the discipling that takes place within personal friendships. Discipling on a personal level is nothing more or less than being a true friend. Why the fancy word when what it really is, is love one for another?

[Gary K]

So, fccool, what you describe there is the love of God? You're calling being judgmental having the love of Christ in your life? How do you get to there from what I've said? Is it because I'm conservative and often point to the Bible and SoP to support my point of view, so therefore I must be mean, unloving, and judgmental?

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

what you have described, gary, is called "discipling'.....

and you and shane are on the same page......How do you and Shane differ?

Shane seems to think there is a need for formal meetings, called ministries, to disciple people. I find that a poor substitute for the discipling that takes place within personal friendships. Discipling on a personal level is nothing more or less than being a true friend. Why the fancy word when what it really is, is love one for another?

Why not give the concept a name and type less?

Why so negative in a negative world? If you truely want to lead to Christ, [that is] if you want to disciple another,[iOWs] if you truely want to love another person, why not be positive in a negative world? I can vouch, it will drive satan mad.....

[Woody]

So, fccool, what you describe there is the love of God? You're calling being judgmental having the love of Christ in your life? How do you get to there from what I've said? Is it because I'm conservative and often point to the Bible and SoP to support my point of view, so therefore I must be mean, unloving, and judgmental?

[Gary K]

Why not give the concept a name and type less?

Why so negative in a negative world? If you truely want to lead to Christ, [that is] if you want to disciple another,[iOWs] if you truely want to love another person, why not be positive in a negative world? I can vouch, it will drive satan mad.....

I see. If I disagree with you and your approach as I find it to not follow the Biblical model from how you express it, I'm then negative? How about you? I could consider your posts to be negative too. I don't, but I could. I just see it as a disussion between two people who see things from different paradigms.

I have no hard feelings for you. I have no hard feelings towards anyone who disagrees with me. I'll do my best to show my point of view is correct, but that shouldn't anger anyone, should it? I mean, what are these forums for? Isn't it for the exchange of ideas? Isn't discovering truth the ultimate goal for all of us?

[fccool]

So, fccool, what you describe there is the love of God? You're calling being judgmental having the love of Christ in your life? How do you get to there from what I've said? Is it because I'm conservative and often point to the Bible and SoP to support my point of view, so therefore I must be mean, unloving, and judgmental?

I've never met you, and I certainly have no beef with you, since I have no idea what kind of person you are. I do tend to assume that you would be an exemplary human with few flaws of your own. I'm addressing issues, not specific people. I really would rather debate issues than point fingers at how "good" or "bad" people are. We are in the same boat when it comes to that.

And I think I'm bringing up a point that's sort of ignored here because people take what I'm saying personally.

It's great to trust God to do all the work, but then why would God delegate those things to us in the first place? That's where I think it's interesting how people would speak about "Showing them the love of Christ", but it is very vague. What does it mean? Does it mean telling them that Christ died for their sins? I've just demonstrated to you from the video and critique that is seems rather extreme for God to issue a death sentence to the kid in the video. It just does not fit in. He's not there standing, and shaking fist at God for being a terrible Lord... and vowing to rebel and kill all life in sight. This kid really seems to live his life the best he can... and for that he deserves to die seemingly.

That's the theology of modern Christianity. On top of that, because this kid deserves to die, God instead sending his son to die to satisfy God's wrath or need for justice... I hope you see what I'm saying here. There's no love in this story, yet it's at the center of evangelism and it's painted as "love". So, the bad news is that for those seemingly small offences you've done, you deserve to die. The good news is that someone already volunteered to die from you, and God will accept that death as sacrificial substitution as long as agree to realize that what you've done is bad and not do it again. Where's love?

[Gary K]

I've never met you, and I certainly have no beef with you, since I have no idea what kind of person you are. I do tend to assume that you would be an exemplary human with few flaws of your own. I'm addressing issues, not specific people. I really would rather debate issues than point fingers at how "good" or "bad" people are. We are in the same boat when it comes to that.

And I think I'm bringing up a point that's sort of ignored here because people take what I'm saying personally.

It's great to trust God to do all the work, but then why would God delegate those things to us in the first place? That's where I think it's interesting how people would speak about "Showing them the love of Christ", but it is very vague. What does it mean? Does it mean telling them that Christ died for their sins? I've just demonstrated to you from the video and critique that is seems rather extreme for God to issue a death sentence to the kid in the video. It just does not fit in. He's not there standing, and shaking fist at God for being a terrible Lord... and vowing to rebel and kill all life in sight. This kid really seems to live his life the best he can... and for that he deserves to die seemingly.

That's the theology of modern Christianity. On top of that, because this kid deserves to die, God instead sending his son to die to satisfy God's wrath or need for justice... I hope you see what I'm saying here. There's no love in this story, yet it's at the center of evangelism and it's painted as "love". So, the bad news is that for those seemingly small offences you've done, you deserve to die. The good news is that someone already volunteered to die from you, and God will accept that death as sacrificial substitution as long as agree to realize that what you've done is bad and not do it again. Where's love?

First, if you assume I am how you stated, well, you haven't read this thread. My life has been anything but perfect, and I've been judged far more harshly and unjustly than you can imagine, by both family and church members. To tell the truth I hope neither you, nor anyoe else, ever has to experience what I've gone through.

Second, I don't find the phrases "the love of Christ" and "the love of God" to be ambiguous at all. Have you read your Bible, especially the first four books of the new testament? I don't see how anyone who has read, and believes, the Gospels can find either phrase ambiguous. And, if anyone has ever read The Desire of Ages both phrases are very plain. The love expressed in both sources is beyond compare, not ambiguous. Maybe your objection is that you've seen the phrases so many times they have lost meaning to you, personally.

As to sin, judgment, and salvation, they are all entertwined and without one the rest lose their meaning. If sin doesn't exist why do we need salvation? If judgment doesn't exist, neither does mercy. Only in the complete picture can we truly see the love of God. These are Biblical ideas and God gave them to us for a reason. I suggest you start studying and prayig about this very seriously so you can understand why God did and said what He did.

Possibly the reason you find the ideas objectionable is because you underestimate the power of sin and the harm it has done to the universe. I don't know, I'm just suggesting possibilities, as I've found that any time a truly Biblical idea angers me it's because my understanding is lacking. My perception is wrong.

How severe was Eve's sin? All she did was eat a piece of fruit, yet that simple act unleased death and destruction, and untold misery, upon all of us. Maybe even a small sin, if there is such a thing, like a white lie has a much greater effect than how you view it? Is that possible?

[Neil D]

Oh, there is much to say here.....

I see. If I disagree with you and your approach as I find it to not follow the Biblical model from how you express it, I'm then negative? How about you? I could consider your posts to be negative too. I don't, but I could. I just see it as a disussion between two people who see things from different paradigms.

[Gary K]

Oh, there is much to say here.....

"Just a discussion"....so you admit that your discussions are mainly to disagree...to be a thorn in someone's side...to win an arguement...and not to promote friendship? If that is the case, I need to ask myself why I am having this discussion with you....and I guarentee unless something changes, I will not continue much longer....It is a pointless discussion, because the discussion is about disagreeing with concepts and not furthering friendships/passing on information/edifying the group.It is about being disagreeable, edifying yourself thru religous terms, being self-righteous, determining how pharasee-ical you can be...

[Neil D]

How did you reach the conclusion that I'm just here to troll you? Isn't that a major case of judging me, the same thing you accuse me of doing to you? Where have I judged your honesty, your Christianity, your motives, or your relationship with God? If you will remember I put myself and my spiritual condition right alongside of you with needing more of God and less of man. Or, are you above me? Is that your conclusion that your spirituality is fine and mine is bad?