Men and Church

[Bravus]

Ever wondered whether one of the reasons men get fed up with the church might be the endless bickering?

[Gary K]

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You can have the last word....

You just had it. I'm not going to answer you and create even more rancor.

I apologize for hurting your feelings. I didn't intend to, but that's neither here nor there. I guess I'm just used to a different method/manner of debate/discussion, exchange of ideas, etc.... Where I've been for the last few years this discussion would have been considered to the point, but mild.

Once again, I'm sorry. I hope you can forgive and we can actually discuss things at some point in the future without rancor. Just be aware that by nature I'm blunt and honest about how I approach things. I've had to be both blunt and honest to able to survive the things I've been through so they are an integral part of me. So, if this really is all my fault, well, I come by the fault honestly.

[phkrause]

Interesting point Bravus, but actually I don't see that much bickering in church among men as I see here on the forum.

[there buster]

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But what is Buster's church being successful at doing? That's the important question.

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Is it successfully creating committed Christians full of the love of God, which is our commission from God, or is it boosting attendance by feeding people something less than the Gospel? From his reply to me I see it to be the latter. It certainly doesn't appear it is teaching people what God requires of them, and that is bad. You can't show people the power of the Gospel unless you show them the entire Gospel.

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And what is it "empowering" people to do? It sounds just as good as Obama's "hope and change", but what does it really mean? It's completely ambiguous as it stands.

Do you want answers to those questions? Or do you prefer to continue assuming the answers?

I work with families in crisis all the time, and one constant is how little anyone actually listens to what others are saying.

For more than 40 years, I have been amazed at how much children tell us about their needs, if only we learn to listen. And I discovered that adults are exactly the same.

We see in the life and ministry of Jesus that he began with people's felt needs. The same approach works in families and churches today. It's not rocket science--anyone can learn. But we have to stop telling and start listening.

[Dr. Shane]

Shane,

How is introducing people to Jesus Christ irrelevant?

[Dr. Shane]

Shane seems to think there is a need for formal meetings...

Not sure where that came from. I attend formal meetings every Sabbath morning and often times on Sabbath afternoon and Wednesday evenings.

[Gary K]

Originally Posted By: Gary K

Shane seems to think there is a need for formal meetings...

Not sure where that came from. I attend formal meetings every Sabbath morning and often times on Sabbath afternoon and Wednesday evenings.

That comes from your preference for organized ministries over individual responsibility, or at least that's how I see what you say. To me, a formally organized church minisitry is a formal meeting.

[Gary K]

Most people in our society *think* they know all they need to about Christ. They have formed opinions and beliefs about Christ based on their past interactions with Christians. When we say "Christ" and they hear "Christ" it isn't the same *Christ*. What we say isn't what they hear.

So we offer them *tools* to meet their needs. Once we have formed a friendship with them, we can present the Biblical Christ to them and they will be more open to it.

[lazarus]

Agreed. An idea came to me last week. Why not plant a counseling center rather than a church? Hear what people stories are in the community and respond accordingly. Needs > Trust > Follow me > Bible study > Jesus >>>> church.

Seems like we typically work in this direction: Church > Jesus > Bible Study> Follow me> Trust > Needs. Sometimes I actually think we never really get to needs.

[there buster]

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Many of them dislike me for nothing more than the fact that I base all my theology on the Bible and the SoP.

Perhaps. Is it possible that they don't like being told what they think, rather than being asked?

[lazarus]

We have an approach that works. And I emphasize again, if there's one word that describes the effective approach, it's practical.

Can you post more about what the approach is. I'm genuinely interested.

[there buster]

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Why not plant a counseling center rather than a church? Hear what people stories are in the community and respond accordingly

We started with networks of individuals with common interests, then we gave free workshops/seminars on those topics, and invited them to our services for more detailed/in depth examination of the same topics.

[there buster]

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Can you post more about what the approach is. I'm genuinely interested.

I'll be glad to. Although we may have to take the discussion somewhere where the background noise isn't so overwhelming.

[lazarus]

Sure. Where do you suggest?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: Shane

Most people in our society *think* they know all they need to about Christ. They have formed opinions and beliefs about Christ based on their past interactions with Christians. When we say "Christ" and they hear "Christ" it isn't the same *Christ*. What we say isn't what they hear.

So we offer them *tools* to meet their needs. Once we have formed a friendship with them, we can present the Biblical Christ to them and they will be more open to it.

See, here is how we differ. You think we need a formally organized church ministry to make friendships with people outside of the church. Why? I have more friends outside the church than I do inside the church. They know what I believe, and know that I know how they live and what they believe, and yet we are still friends. To tell the truth I'm more comfortable being in their homes, or having them in mine, than I am with being around many church members. Many of them dislike me for nothing more than the fact that I base all my theology on the Bible and the SoP.

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Perhaps it was a miracle. Or perhaps he was just a hard drinker and not an *alcoholic*. Hard drinkers and alcoholics both drink the same. One cannot be distinguished from the other until they try to quit drinking. A hard drinker can quit drinking when given a compelling reason to do so. An alcoholic cannot. Alcoholism is a mental illness that normally needs treatment. I do believe that God can cure those with bi-polar disorder, schizophrenia and/or alcoholism but He doesn't normally work that way.

Well, you didn't know the man. I did, even though I was just a kid at the time. However, being an addict myself I recognize the symptoms and the behavior in him that I have had to overcome myself.

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A 12 step program is a type of therapy. It is not a religion. It does not take the place of or compete with religion. The higher power concept is used in 12 step groups so that people from all religions (Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, etc.) can find help as well as non-religious people. Churches that have groups that complement (not compete with) 12 step groups have been known to grow quite well.

You can call it a therapy and a mental illness if you want, but it's sin, and the answer to sin and its affects on the human mind is God. The love of Christ is capable of overcoming all of it. In the same sense that you say addiction is a mental illness, I say all the behaviors sin causes us to exhibit are mental illnesses for sin is self-destructive, just as self-destructive as addiction. It will kill us in the end if we don't apply the cure to our own lives even more surely than any addiction.

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Indeed! The 12 step group I attend has a saying, "We don't shoot our wounded." That means, we don't beat up on the people that relapse. Can the same be said of the church?

Are there church members who shoot their own? How can you ask an addict that question with a straight face? Of course there are church members who eat their own. There are also a lot of them that do not. I'm friends with many staunch, conservative SDA's whom I met, and became friends with, while in active addiction. They never once judged me, although they did judge my behavior as bad, but that is as it should be. Accept the sinner and condemn the sin. That's exactly what God does with all of us.

The important question is why do some church members eat their own. There is an obvious answer to that. They are uncommitted Christians who have not experienced the love of Christ in their lives, or if they have experienced that love, have long ago left their first love.

Remember, we are Laodicea. This behavior is the evidence of that truth. What's the cure? Ministries? How about returning the focus of the church to the love of God so that all of us in the church will be what God asks all of us to be. Jesus says He's standing at the door to all of our hearts and asking to come in. It's an apt analogy to use a door, because it's a closed door and is a faithful represetation of our spiritual condition.

The Bible both diagnoses our problem and gives us the solution. There is no need to look anywhere else, when we have a source that each and every one of should agree that it is the word of our Creator who knows mankind much better than we, as both individuals and as a race, can know ourselves.

I really didn't want to post in a "men's forum," but I really must say something here. I just finished the editing on a book, and one very long chapter was regarding AA, its foundations, and its techniques. AA is NOT Christian. It was begun by spiritualists (yes, there is documentation), it focuses on SELF, it puts a person through additional shame in having to get up in front of people and proclaim how bad they are, i.e., "I'm Bill, and I'm an alcoholic." In addition, AA requires a person to "confess" to someone else what they've done, exactly like the Catholics do with a priest in confessional. It considers a person to be an alcoholic their entire lifetime, even though they may have quit. Whatever happened to confessing to God, and ridding one's self of the blame of addiction through the righteousness of Christ?? AA promotes the ongoing attendance of AA meetings. Yes, it sounds really good, but it is based in spiritual deception. There is no Christian reference to Jesus Christ, Divine Son of God....you can pick your "Higher Source," even if its a doorknob.

Yes, I know I'm stepping on some toes here. But I've seen the research.

**Back to topic**

[Gordon1]

Agreed. An idea came to me last week. Why not plant a counseling center rather than a church? Hear what people stories are in the community and respond accordingly. Needs > Trust > Follow me > Bible study > Jesus >>>> church.

Seems like we typically work in this direction: Church > Jesus > Bible Study> Follow me> Trust > Needs. Sometimes I actually think we never really get to needs.

As buster stated, rocket science is not needed, only a plain reading of Christ's methods. He cast out demons/evil spirits and healed all manner of disease - He went about doing good, for God was with Him.

So, fully concur with you Lazarus - needs are never addressed because the Catholic (wordly/universal) system is taught in the seminaries. i.e Church structure and tradition come first, as you noted.

Nor did Jesus set up a counseling center. (Centralized control aka: church system) Instead He trained His followers to divide all they had in common and follow His example of casting out demons and healing, scattering these men to the needy masses.

Bottom Line: Christ helped people because He cared. If we have His mind (Phil 2:5) we'll do the same. And naturally He taught them the truth about God, and they became part of the church body. No building center, no switching signs, no subterfuge.

(If we don't divide our goods, cast out demons and heal diseases, we need a reboot - not following the plan)

It's no wonder Christianity has not advanced; the reverse process has been taught and practiced for generations. Imagine the billions spent on seminary educations and church salaries, all heading in the wrong direction.

[Gordon1]

Agreed Pam that AA is a crutch. It's existence also highlights the grave dangers of alcohol consumption (other thread), but it does not bring members to rely on Christ, rather lifelong dependency upon each other, and doorknobs, coffee, etc.

[phkrause]

I really didn't want to post in a "men's forum," but I really must say something here. I just finished the editing on a book, and one very long chapter was regarding AA, its foundations, and its techniques. AA is NOT Christian. It was begun by spiritualists (yes, there is documentation), it focuses on SELF, it puts a person through additional shame in having to get up in front of people and proclaim how bad they are, i.e., "I'm Bill, and I'm an alcoholic." In addition, AA requires a person to "confess" to someone else what they've done, exactly like the Catholics do with a priest in confessional. It considers a person to be an alcoholic their entire lifetime, even though they may have quit. Whatever happened to confessing to God, and ridding one's self of the blame of addiction through the righteousness of Christ?? AA promotes the ongoing attendance of AA meetings. Yes, it sounds really good, but it is based in spiritual deception. There is no Christian reference to Jesus Christ, Divine Son of God....you can pick your "Higher Source," even if its a doorknob.

Yes, I know I'm stepping on some toes here. But I've seen the research.

**Back to topic**

You make some very good points rudywoofs. To add to that, my point would be that God will work with us in anyway. There is no set way. There are many different kinds of people and there needs to many different ways to reach all.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I didn't see where these statistics came from, but they look pretty accurate to me.

The above came from a Lutheran blog, with no identifiable source of the information.

blog

[Dr. Shane]

You think we need a formally organized church ministry to make friendships with people outside of the church.

[Dr. Shane]

AA is NOT Christian.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

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It grew out of the Oxford Groups which was Christian..

Wrong. The Oxford Group was created by a Lutheran minister, but involved itself in "contemplative" silence where the mind is emptied of all thought and whatever enters the mind was considered to be "inspired"...it was not contemplating Christ.

12 Step groups are not about looking for God; they are about looking towards a "Higher Power"...that is one of their concepts used to placate agnostics, pagans, and atheists.

You may *think* you have lived the research, but, you have been misled. "Well, it works!" Satan uses all sorts of deceptions that can work.

Shane, you will not like this book. It would take you down a path you are not willing to travel. I knew immediately upon reading the manuscript what your reaction was going to be. You didn't disappoint me.

[Dr. Shane]

The Lutheran denomination is a Christian denomination. Of course 12 step groups are not an extension of the Oxford groups but learned a valuable lesson from the Oxford group's failings.

There are many people that think they know something about 12 step groups but are all messed up. I have been hearing misinformation about 12 step groups for the past 25 years. One of the big reasons is that 12 step groups will not defend themselves or try to clear the air because one of their traditions is that they have no opinion on outside issues - and what *other* people say and write about them is considered an *outside* issue.

12 step groups are neutral when it comes to religion. They are not spiritualistic nor are they Christian. Each person's religion is of their own affair.

I heard an Adventist pastor suggest during a sermon that members should not be afraid to take an alcoholic friend to an AA meeting, or take a drug addicted friend to an NA meeting, or a compulsive gambling friend to a GA meeting. There are "open" and "closed" meetings. The public is welcome to attend open meetings and it would be appropriate to bring an addicted friend. I think that is a great idea.