Judaizers and SDAizers

[skyblue888]

Yes Ron, of course, many of the Jews accepted the Gospel of Christ but don't forget that they were persecuted by their own people and many were put to death for believing in Christ. See Acts 8:1-4.

But have you never read the parable of Matt.22?

"And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 "The kingdom of Heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his Son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.' 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests." Matt.22:1-11.

Very obviously the king in the picture is God the Father, and the Son for whom the marriage is made is Christ. But what is the marriage? By the marriage is represented the union of humanity with divinity through Christ by the Holy Spirit. Therefore the making of this marriage must be the bringing together of these two divided parties.

The reception of the Gospel then results in man becoming one with God. But the whole teaching of the parable will show that, while individuals do respond to the call, the body does not. The acceptance by a minority of individuals within the body is not mentioned in the parable. It is concerned not with this, but with the response of the body as a whole.

The first call.

The first call was given by the twelve and the seventy apostles before the crucifixion of Christ. The Lord sent out the twelve and the seventy proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand and calling upon the Jews to repent and believe the gospel. But the call was not heeded. Those who were bidden to the feast did not come.

Thus came the first call and its rejection. But this did not yet close the door of opportunity on the Jewish Church. In this prophecy there are two calls to the bidden ones, no more and no less. Therefore when the first call was ended, the second was yet to come. But when that call came, it would be the last. There could never be a third opportunity. Their rejection of that call would seal their fate as a church.

The second call.

The second call came in the giving of the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. "The servants were sent out later to say, ‘Behold, I have prepared My dinner; My oxen and My fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come to the marriage.’" This was the message borne to the Jewish nation after the crucifixion of Christ; but the nation that claimed to be God’s peculiar people rejected the gospel brought to them in the power of the Holy Spirit. Many did this in the most scornful manner. Others were so exasperated by the offer of salvation, the offer of pardon for rejecting the Lord of glory, that they turned upon the bearers of the message. There was "a great persecution." Acts 8:1. Many both of men and women were thrust into prison, and some of the Lord’s messengers, as Stephen and James, were put to death. Acts 8:1-4.

Before it ever happened, Jesus foretold that this would be the response to the first call and to the second call and it was. The events exactly fulfilled the prediction. Until the second call had been given, both Christ and the disciples were able to remain in the Jewish Church, but just as soon as the rejection of the second call was complete, "a great persecution" forced the disciples of Christ out of that church. Her day of opportunity was past. Now the call will go to another class.

Thus the Jewish people sealed their rejection of God’s mercy. The result was foretold by Christ in the parable. "The king sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city." The judgment pronounced came upon the Jews in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and in the scattering of the nation.

The Third Call.

The third call to the feast represents the giving of the gospel to the Gentiles. The king said, "The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.” Matt.22:9,10.

The giving of the gospel to the Gentiles began in A.D.34, which year marked the end of the 490 years allotted for the Jewish Church. So we read in Acts 13:46, "Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, Lo, we turn to the Gentiles.”

Thus the call turned to the highways and the byways and another class is given the invitation the Jews spurned. With great patience, God had waited for the work to be completed, but He had been disappointed by the failure of His people. Now He looked for it to be completed through the Apostolic church but again He is disappointed, for after having reached a certain glorious peak, they fell away until we have the Dark Ages.

Here now the Church is returned to the same dark captivity as was the fate of Israel under Babylon in Daniel’s day. Under such conditions the marriage was impossible. The guests had not been fully gathered and therefore the king had not been able to come in to inspect the guests. But, before Jesus can return, there has to be a marriage consummated. Once again, out of the ruins, the Lord of Heaven must gather a people, put them into a position of opportunity, give them the wondrous power of the Gospel and then make the marriage to which they then have become the bidden guests.

It is in this second complete and final fulfilment of this parable that we are most interested and most vitally concerned.

sky

[Ron Amnsn]

Yes Ron, of course, many of the Jews accepted the Gospel of Christ but don't forget that they were persecuted by their own people and many were put to death for believing in Christ. See Acts 8:1-4.

So, a few bad apples among the Jewish leaders is enough for God to break his promise and covenant with his friend Abraham and with all of Abraham's descendants from that point on? Really? Is the surety of God's word, God's covenants and God's promises really dependent on the behavior of a few people among the many? Does God really abandon the humble simply because their rulers are rotten?

[Ron Amnsn]

But have you never read the parable of Matt.22?

The parable of the wedding in Matt. 22 does seem rather ominous for the Jews when viewed from the perspective of a Gentile Christian who reads the parable with the presupposition that God rejected the Jews.

But no one in the crowd that was listening to Jesus had any presuppositions about the Jews being rejected. In fact, the folks in the crowd had the opposite belief about the destiny of Israel, a belief that was solidly based on the surety of God's word.

How would those Jewish listeners have understood the parable? They would have identified the King as a Jew, especially since Jesus had said the story was descriptive of the Kingdom of Heaven. The folks invited to the wedding would have been Jews as well, because that's who you invite to Jewish weddings. The original wedding guests would have been the wealthy and powerful Jews - the kind of people who associate with kings. The Pharisees and Jewish leaders in the crowd probably identified themselves as the original guests - until the story turned sour - and then they got angrier at Jesus. However, the common people listening to the parable had never been invited to an important wedding, so they would have identified themselves with those who were invited later.

After the second invitation in the parable, all the bad guests were destroyed. So if those bad guests represented the Jewish nation, we should expect that all of the Jewish nation would have been destroyed after rejecting the divine invitation. But they weren't. So that's a clue that the destroyed guests didn't represent the whole Jewish nation.

The new guests brought in from the byways by the servants to fill the wedding feast would have been Jews as well - because it was going to be a Jewish wedding feast.

In the crowd listening to the parable, there may have been no-one who identified with the man who was lacking a wedding garment. Everyone knows (or so I've been told) that to go to an important Jewish wedding you have to wear the wedding garment provided. The guy without the wedding garment must have been unfamiliar with Jewish customs. Maybe he was a Gentile who didn't know about Jewish customs, or maybe he figured he didn't need to follow Jewish customs because he was a Christian who had separated himself from the Jews -- a man so separated from the Jews that he had forgotten that the bridegroom at the wedding is Jewish.

After the garment-less man was cast out, the rest of the Jewish common folks enjoyed the banquet put on by the noble Jewish king.

I think you get the idea. Jesus was talking to Jews, and from a Jewish perspective the parable has no anti-Jewish meaning at all. Unless you were from the upper class of people who presumed they would be invited to the grand wedding.

Jesus was aware of the confidence the Jews had about being the chosen nation of God. If he intended any of the other players in the wedding parable to be non-Jews, he would have specified that, because he knew that the hearers would not automatically assume that.

Also, this parable starts out with, "And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables," so we know that this parable is connected to what came before it. Looking in the preceding chapter we see who Jesus was talking to: "And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching." (v. 23) Then Matthew related some questions and parables and concluded with the observation, "And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet." Then immediately comes the parable of Matt. 22 which was spoken again to those same chief priests and elders of the people.

[skyblue888]

"He came unto His own, and His own received Him not." John 1:11.

[Ron Amnsn]

That's interesting. That same chapter tells about four or five of his own who did receive him.

[skyblue888]

Individuals yes, but the Jewish nation as a whole, did not.

[phkrause]

Individuals yes, but the Jewish nation as a whole, did not.

I agree sky, a very small percentage of Jews received him. The marjority out of ignorance rejected him. As I read the Bible its those that the Jews disliked that received and seemed to know who he was or accepted who he was. Its unfortunate that most Jews were looking for a Messiah that would take them away from the yoke of there oppressors, the Romans. But this is what they were taught for so many years. And as has been mentioned already, sometimes I think we Adventists and other Christians do the same thing now, and we have the Old and New Testament to read what has gone before.

[Ron Amnsn]

The Jewish nation as a whole didn't even hear about Jesus. The Jews in Judea did, and in Galilee and Samaria. But the "whole" nation consists of all the descendants of the twelve tribes of Jacob both in the land of Israel as well as those still scattered among the Gentile nations.

Some of those scattered traveled to Jerusalem for God's feasts and returned home. At the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost) when the Holy Spirit was poured out on those attending the Feast, more than three thousand accepted Jesus in a single day. Who knows what happened when they returned home to share the good news with their friends and family.

When Paul traveled around to the Jewish synagogues in the Gentile nations, there were some Jews in every synagogue that accepted Jesus when they heard about him.

[skyblue888]

Yes, you are right, and they joined the Early Church.

[Ron Amnsn]

Yes, you are right, and they joined the Early Church.

Of all the Jews and Israelites scattered among the Gentile nations, Paul's gospel reached only a tiny fraction during his lifetime. (Paul didn't even become a believer until well after AD 34.)

There were countless other Jews and Israelites waiting for Messiah spread all over the civilized world. Most of those Jews died before ever hearing of Jesus. These faithful Jews were a significant portion of "the Jewish nation as a whole" which did not reject Jesus.

The man-made doctrines that you're espousing would have us believe that God abandoned those scattered faithful children of Abraham in AD 34 by reneging on his promises and covenants, invalidating the word of God.

The "Early Church" was not separate from the Jews as you imagine. The English word "church" is a relatively recent invention. In Hebrews 10:25 where it says, "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is," the word assembling is episynagogen or "synagoging". The book of Acts shows that the "Early Church" met with the Jews (where they were still allowed). For instance, when Paul (as Saul) went to foreign cities (like Damascus) to persecute the believers, where did he look for them? In the Jewish synagogues.

[Ron Amnsn]

The word of the Lord from Jeremiah 31:35-37 (NASB),

Thus says the LORD,

Who gives the sun for light by day

And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,

Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;

The LORD of hosts is His name:

“If this fixed order departs

From before Me,” declares the LORD,

Then the offspring of Israel also will cease

From being a nation before Me forever.”

Thus says the LORD,

“If the heavens above can be measured

And the foundations of the earth searched out below,

Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel

For all that they have done,” declares the LORD.

God plainly stated the conditions that might result in the rejection of Israel. Those conditions have never been met. Theologians have attempted to alter those conditions. Who should we believe men or God?

[skyblue888]

So what happened in A.D.70? Why was Jerusalem destroyed then?

What happened in 1844? Did Jesus pass from the Holy to the Most Holy place of the sanctuary in Heaven or not?

What is the order of last day events according to your understanding of prophecy?

Are we to look to the Middle East for answers?

Is Seventh-day Adventism a hoax?

Have the Jews, as a people, followed Christ by faith into the Holy place at His ascension and into the Most Holy place on Oct.22,1844?

sky

[wayfinder]

A "forever covenant" last forever as long as the conditions of the covenant are followed. The "forever language" used in Jeremiah and all throughout the Law and Prophets was always conditioned upon obeying God. I Israel obeyed they would always be God's kingdom if not they would be left to their own determining and God would choose another "people", the following texts testify to this fact.

Deuteronomy 30:15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it.

17 "But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,

18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.

19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place

Matthew 23:34 "Therefore , behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes ; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,

35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Lament over Jerusalem

37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling .

38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

Matthew 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.

44 "And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces ; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."

45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them.

[Ron Amnsn]

So what happened in A.D.70? Why was Jerusalem destroyed then?

God's covenant with the Israelites included provisions for death, famine, captivity, and exile as some of consequences/curses when the Israelites did not obey.

If God had already rejected the people and land of Israel and had annulled the covenants with Israel (as has been alleged), then there would been no reason in AD 70 for the destruction of Jerusalem (other than whatever reasons the Romans had). If the Temple of God had lost it's significance (as has been alleged), then there would be no significance in its destruction. If the promises of the covenant had become obsolete, then the consequences of that covenant would have also been obsolete as well.

One of the inconsistencies of Replacement Theology is that the "church" lays claim to all the promises of the covenants given to Israel, but they assign to the Jews all the curses of the covenants. That's totally man-made doctrine. If the covenants were actually obsolete, then the curses as well as the promises would be extinct.

The destruction of Jerusalem after Messiah's coming had been prophesied in Daniel 9:26 and also by Jesus.

The rulers of Jerusalem during the second temple period of the New Testament were corrupt. Justice was not happening in the courts of law. God's Temple had been turned into a den of robbers. The traditions of men had been raised above the Law of God. God's covenant with Israel specified consequences for such situations, and the Romans were God's implement for administering those consequences.

The fact that God bothered to prophesy and fulfill the destruction of Jerusalem is strong evidence that God still honored his covenants with Israel.

[wayfinder]

Revelation 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals ; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God ; and they will reign upon the earth."

The destruction of the temple in 70CE was not a judgment or punishment of God against Israel, it ended the temple services from this earth. The temple in heaven took its place and the services began in the heavenly temple in 1844. The temple in heaven does not have an outer court for sacrificing, all the functions of the temple itself are the only functions taking place in heaven. God did not transfer the kingdom to another people, He opened His kingdom to all who would submit themselves to the requirements to enter the kingdom. The requirement is righteousness and this is achieved through the actions of the Spirit of Truth in sanctification. You are right, in that you say that the blessings and curses continue in force. If you are in the kingdom of God you have blessings, if you are outside you have the curses. Inside eternal life, outside eternal death.

Isaiah 26:2 "Open the gates, that the righteous nation may enter, The one that remains faithful.

[Ron Amnsn]

A "forever covenant" last forever as long as the conditions of the covenant are followed. The "forever language" used in Jeremiah and all throughout the Law and Prophets was always conditioned upon obeying God. If Israel obeyed they would always be God's kingdom if not they would be left to their own determining and God would choose another "people", the following texts testify to this fact.

[wayfinder]

Deuteronomy 30:15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity ;

16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it.

17 "But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,

18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it.

19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them."

Deuteronomy 31:16 The LORD said to Moses, "Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers ; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them.

17 "Then My anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide My face from them, and they will be consumed, and many evils and troubles will come upon them; so that they will say in that day, 'Is it not because our God is not among us that these evils have come upon us?'

18 "But I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they will do, for they will turn to other gods.

God knows exactly what He is getting into at all times. When He created Lucifer He knew that he would be the one who would lead the rebellion against Him. When He created Adam and then the formed the Woman from his side, He knew they would disobey. When He chose the children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to be His kingdom, He knew they would be a rebellious house, but He did these things anyway.

I am not a "replacement theology" adherent. What I believe is exactly what God has revealed in the information He has given us, whether parable or prophecy, the information is what is important. Every prophecy, about the end of time, given since the captivity of Judah, has always shown the formation and appearence of God's kingdom occuring in at the time of the end. In Daniel 2 it is the stone, cut out without hands during the kingdoms of the "feet". In Daniel 7 the time came when the holy people/saints recieved the kingdom, this occured in sequence after the "horn with eyes and a mouth". In Daniel 8 the temple in heaven was properly restored, which means that it began to function on behalf of the kingdom of heaven after the 2300 evenings and mornings (1844). Daniel 9 is the only prophecy which is specifically about Daniel's people and their holy city and a predetermined set time is given (seventy-sevens) and Gabriel is clear on the requirements and accomplishments that must be met during this time.

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

None of these conditions were met, as testified to by the words of the Son of God. The vision and prophecy which were sealed up were the ones about the time of the end (our day). If Israel had accomplished these requirements then the earth would now be filled with the glory of the Lord. So, just as God chose Saul to be the first king of Israel and then took the kingship away from his family and gave it to David, God has taken the kingdom away from the offspring of Israel and given it to all who will to do His will and become righteous. God has not excluded the Jews at all, they have as much right to enter the kingdom as they ever have had. The difference is that the kingdom of God will be filled with the righteous Jew and gentile alike. The righteous have been born again and are sons and daughters of God.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God

[Ron Amnsn]

Deuteronomy 30:15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity ..."

[skyblue888]

"The people of Israel had made their choice. Pointing to Jesus they had said, 'Not this man, but Barabbas.' Barabbas, the robber and murderer, was the representative of Satan. Christ was the representative of God. Christ had been rejected; Barabbas had been chosen. Barabbas they were to have. In making this choice they accepted him who from the beginning was a liar and a murderer. Satan was their leader. As a nation they would act out his dictation. His works they would do. His rule they must endure. That people who chose Barabbas in the place of Christ were to feel the cruelty of Barabbas as long as time should last.

Looking upon the smitten Lamb of God, the Jews had cried, 'His blood be on us, and on our children.' That awful cry ascended to the throne of God. That sentence, pronounced upon themselves, was written in heaven. That prayer was heard. The blood of the Son of God was upon their children and their children's children, a perpetual curse.

Terribly was it realized in the destruction of Jerusalem. Terribly has it been manifested in the condition of the Jewish nation for eighteen hundred years,--a branch severed from the vine, a dead, fruitless branch, to be gathered up and burned. From land to land throughout the world, from century to century, dead, dead in trespasses and sins!

Terribly will that prayer be fulfilled in the great judgment day. When Christ shall come to the earth again, not as a prisoner surrounded by a rabble will men see Him. They will see Him then as heaven's King. Christ will come in His own glory, in the glory of His Father, and the glory of the holy angels. Ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands of angels, the beautiful and triumphant sons of God, possessing surpassing loveliness and glory, will escort Him on His way. Then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory, and before Him shall be gathered all nations. Then every eye shall see Him, and they also that pierced Him. In the place of a crown of thorns, He will wear a crown of glory,--a crown within a crown. In place of that old purple kingly robe, He will be clothed in raiment of whitest white, 'so as no fuller on earth can white them.' Mark 9:3. And on His vesture and on His thigh a name will be written, 'King of kings, and Lord of lords.' Rev. 19:16. Those who mocked and smote Him will be there. The priests and rulers will behold again the scene in the judgment hall. Every circumstance will appear before them, as if written in letters of fire. Then those who prayed, 'His blood be on us, and on our children,' will receive the answer to their prayer. Then the whole world will know and understand. They will realize who and what they, poor, feeble, finite beings, have been warring against. In awful agony and horror they will cry to the mountains and rocks, 'Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?'" Rev. 6:16, 17. The Desire of Ages, pp.738,9.

[skyblue888]

The word of the Lord from Jeremiah 31:35-37 (NASB),

Thus says the LORD,

Who gives the sun for light by day

And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;

The LORD of hosts is His name:

“If this fixed order departs

From before Me,” declares the LORD,

Then the offspring of Israel also will cease

From being a nation before Me forever.”

Thus says the LORD, “If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below,

Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done,” declares the LORD.

God plainly stated the conditions that might result in the rejection of Israel. Those conditions have never been met. Theologians have attempted to alter those conditions. Who should we believe men or God?

Ron

____________________________

The modern reader of the Spirit of Prophecy who seeks to prove the perpetuity of the church, could hardly have found a stronger statement than that! Imagine the line of reasoning the religious leaders would have used in their day. They would ask the question:

"Does the sun still shine by day?"

"Yes," the answer had to be.

"Does the moon shine by night at this present time?"

"Yes, it does."

"Then is it possible for God to have cast off Israel for what they have done?"

Imagine how convincing this was to those people back then!

Now this tactic on the part of the devil to thwart the truth is so old and so often used that one would think that it would be no longer of any value, but in every generation when the Lord brings forth the truth, the devil brings out this weapon and uses it just as effectively as before. It was the great weapon that helped to frustrate the marvelous revival which might have been in the days of Christ. It was the great weapon used to thwart the work of the Gospel in the days of The Reformation.

Now, can't we hear the Jewish leaders arguing as they most certainly must have done in the days of Christ and of Paul:

"Why, do not be disturbed about this Man from Galilee, or this preacher, Saul of Tarsus. There is nothing new about this. We have been through these problems again and again. Remember how in the past there have been various offshoots which have arisen and proclaimed the apostasy of Israel, claimed that they had the real truth. But what has become of every one of these movements and the men who led them? Look and see!

"That man Theudas arose followed by Judas (See Acts 5:36,37) and then there was Barabbas. (See D.A.733.) But where are they now? Why, in some cases the leaders were killed by the authorities and the movements are scattered and come to naught. Look at the sadness, the disappointment and the disillusionment of the unfortunate people who were deceived by these false teachers every one of whom declared the end of the church, but who speedily came to their end instead.

"And where is the church in and through all this? Why it is still there. And we do not doubt that others will arise as this Paul, but they too will pass away and the church will be there to the very end. So save yourself the disappointment and the sorrow; learn the lesson of the past and stay with the ship and go through with it to the very end of time."

How utterly and fatally wrong time has proved them to be. They were utterly wrong in their argument that the men who had arisen had failed because they had charged the church with apostasy. This was not the reason why they had failed at all. They had failed, not because they had quite correctly charged the church with apostasy, but because they did not have the life and the message to correct the apostasy. And being wrong in their basic argument the Jewish leaders could not help being wrong in the conclusions drawn from that argument.

The argument which they propounded was that the Jewish organization was going right through to the end as the Church of God and the channel of His blessing to the world. To certify what they supposed to be the truth of this argument, they were able to quote many, many powerful Old Testament promises.

sky

[Ron Amnsn]

"The people of Israel had made their choice...

This polemic against the physical offspring of Israel sounds authoritative, and there was a time in my life when I would have simply believed it, because I had placed the teachings of humans above God's word. But that was wrong. Scripture calls for us to test everything and to reject that which is contrary to Scripture. It also warns against adding to Scripture things that are not in Scripture. The Jews made that mistake and Adventists also make that mistake.

Adventists are not accustomed to testing the writings of Ellen White as they should.

The New Testament authors wrote about the same event contained in the EGW quotation that you posted. But their take on the event was quite different. According to Peter in Acts 3:17-18, the Jewish people acting in ignorance was God's way of fulfilling what was spoken by all the prophets -- an error easily resolved by personal repentance. According to John writing decades afterwards, Caiphas correctly prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation. (John 11) Jesus prophesied that when Jerusalem saw him again they would be saying, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." (Matt 23)

Ellen White and many authors before and after have interpreted the words, "His blood be on us, and on our children." as if it was a permanent curse. Certainly, the people were taking responsibility for the death of Jesus. But dying was one of the goals of Jesus' mission on earth. Jesus said he laid down his own life. How much guilt can be ascribed for something Jesus needed to do and chose to do?

How much difference is there between what the Jews said to accept responsibility for the death of Jesus, and what a repentant sinner says when he acknowledges that "Jesus died for my sins" ? Both are accepting the guilt of placing Jesus on the cross. True, the Jews were not yet saying those words in repentance, but God was not finished with them yet.

Actually, the sentence "His blood be on us, and on our children." is a plea for cleansing and forgiveness. How many Christians have asked to be washed in the blood of the lamb? How many of us hope that our children will choose to accept the cleansing offered by having the blood of the lamb applied to themselves? When we sing hymns about having Jesus blood applied to us, we are echoing those words of the Jewish mob. If our own sins didn't place Jesus on the cross, then is there forgiveness for us? Are we so anti-Semetic that we take those words as a curse when said by Jews, but as salvation when said by non-Jews?

[skyblue888]

Actually, the sentence "His blood be on us, and on our children" is a plea for cleansing and forgiveness.

Ron

I don't think so Ron. This is not what they had in mind when they said these words. On the contrary they were saying that they were ready to accept whatever consequences there were for rejecting and crucifying Him who had dared to tell them truths that they did not agree with.

sky

[skyblue888]

"The priests, in putting Christ to death, had made themselves the tools of Satan. Now they were entirely in his power. They were entangled in a snare from which they saw no escape but in continuing their warfare against Christ. When they heard the report of His resurrection, they feared the wrath of the people. They felt that their own lives were in danger. The only hope for them was to prove Christ an impostor by denying that He had risen. They bribed the soldiers, and secured Pilate's silence. They spread their lying reports far and near. But there were witnesses whom they could not silence. Many had heard of the soldiers' testimony to Christ's resurrection. And certain of the dead who came forth with Christ appeared to many, and declared that He had risen. Reports were brought to the priests of persons who had seen these risen ones, and heard their testimony. The priests and rulers were in continual dread, lest in walking the streets, or within the privacy of their own homes, they should come face to face with Christ. They felt that there was no safety for them. Bolts and bars were but poor protection against the Son of God. By day and by night that awful scene in the judgment hall, when they had cried, 'His blood be on us, and on our children,' was before them. Matt. 27:25. Nevermore would the memory of that scene fade from their minds. Nevermore would peaceful sleep come to their pillows." Desire of Ages, p.785.

[skyblue888]

"His murderers were greatly annoyed by the superscription, 'The King of the Jews,' placed upon the cross above His head. But then (at His second coming) they will be obliged to see Him in all His glory and kingly power. They will behold on His vesture and on His thigh, written in living characters, 'King of kings, Lord of lords.' They cried to Him mockingly, as He hung upon the cross, 'Let Christ, the King of Israel, descend from the cross, that we may see and believe.' They will behold Him then with kingly power and authority. They will demand no evidence of His being King of Israel; but overwhelmed with a sense of His majesty and exceeding glory, they will be compelled to acknowledge, 'Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord.'" Early Writings, p.179.

[skyblue888]

At the destruction of Jerusalem, "The Roman leaders endeavored to strike terror to the Jews and thus cause them to surrender. Those prisoners who resisted when taken, were scourged, tortured, and crucified before the wall of the city. Hundreds were daily put to death in this manner, and the dreadful work continued until, along the Valley of Jehoshaphat and at Calvary, crosses were erected in so great numbers that there was scarcely room to move among them. So terribly was visited that awful imprecation uttered before the judgment seat of Pilate: 'His blood be on us, and on our children.' Matthew 27:25. The Great Controversy, p.32.