Musicman1228 Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 There are many ideas as to the reason why Jesus Christ died. This thread will look at those reasons for the purpose of discovering the true purpose as the why the Son of God felt the need to sacrifice Himself, and then raise Himself up again. All of your ideas are welcome, but Scriptural proof is better than mere opinion because I want to find the truth of this subject rather than speculation. Also, play nice. Quote
Guest Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 Now doesn't having your own thread feel good? Here you can say anything you want. I will look into your question, and come back later. I already know what you believe about this, for the most part. Quote
wayfinder Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 Revelation 5:8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals ; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God ; and they will reign upon the earth." The Son of God was slain so that He would be able to purchase men and women... and make them to be a kingdom and priests to God. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted January 23, 2011 Moderators Posted January 23, 2011 Who did Jesus purchase people from? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 23, 2011 Moderators Posted January 23, 2011 Mark 10:45 "For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." John 3:16-17 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." 1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" John 6:33 "For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." I believe on the basis of this and other verses that Christ died for every person who has ever lived. He died "that the world might be saved through him." He died for the apostle Paul. He died for the Romans soldiers who nailed Him to the cross. He died for Pilate and for Judas. He died for Hitler, for Jean Genet and for me. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Musicman1228 Posted January 23, 2011 Author Posted January 23, 2011 There will be representatives from every nation, kindred, tongue and people in the Kingdom of Heaven because those people have met the requirements for entry into that Kingdom. Can a person be saved if they are not in the Kingdom of Heaven? Quote
Guest Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 Quote: I believe on the basis of this and other verses that Christ died for every person who has ever lived. He died "that the world might be saved through him." He died for the apostle Paul. He died for the Romans soldiers who nailed Him to the cross. He died for Pilate and for Judas. He died for Hitler, for Jean Genet and for me. And don't forget me! Needless to say, not all who His blood would have covered, took advantage of what He did for them. They could have been overcomers through the blood of the Lamb, but did not choose that path. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted January 23, 2011 Moderators Posted January 23, 2011 Yes, I didn't mean to forget you, Richard-- He died for you too. :-) Oh yeah, He also died for Dr. Rich, Wayfinder, and the Musicman. I think there's a few others I didn't name, but I hope they know who they are. lol Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 23, 2011 Moderators Posted January 23, 2011 It's safe to say that all who are saved will be in the Kingdom of heaven. Here are some who won't be: 1 Cor. 6:9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. Rev. 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. Jesus talked about some who would be in the kingdom of heaven: Matthew 5:3-10 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. [4] "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. [5] "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. [6] "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. [7] "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. [8] "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. [9] "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. [10] "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Gerr Posted January 23, 2011 Moderators Posted January 23, 2011 To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood 6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Re 1:5–6). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. 14:1 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Jn 14:1–3). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ro 3:25–26). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. Quote
Guest Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 John 3:16-17 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." 1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world . Case closed. What can we talk about next? Quote
wayfinder Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 Jesus purchased people from the kingdom of the world. Quote
wayfinder Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 Jesus shed His blood to purchase those who had become righteous through the process of sanctification. This was necessary because Adam had "sold out" to the evil one and by rights should have been the one to shed his blood (in the day you eat from it): therefore those who would choose righteousness needed to be redeemed/purchased by the blood of a son of man who knew no sin (was righteous). This individual must also be a son of God as was Adam. Daniel 7:13 "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him Matthew 26:61 and said, "This man stated, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and to rebuild it in three days.' " 62 The high priest stood up and said to Him, "Do You not answer ? What is it that these men are testifying against You?" 63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God." 64 Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." 65 Then the high priest tore his robes and said, "He has blasphemed ! What further need do we have of witnesses ? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy ; Matthew 5:20 NAS "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven Matthew 7:21 NAS "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will Matthew 18:3 NAS and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven John 3:5 NAS Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish ; and no one will snatch them out of My hand Quote
Guest Posted January 23, 2011 Posted January 23, 2011 Jesus shed His blood to purchase those who had become righteous through the process of sanctification. Wayfinder, how come the things you say are always the direct opposite of what the Bible says? In this case, what Jesus said. Mat 9:13 ...for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. As usual you have the cart before the horse, saying that He came to save the ones who were already righteous. Why would He need to do that? He came to save sinners, and He plainly said so. What you're saying doesn't even make sense. Do you ever pray before you read the Bible? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted January 23, 2011 Moderators Posted January 23, 2011 Jesus shed His blood to purchase those who had become righteous through the process of sanctification. I agree that those whom Jesus will save in His kingdom will be both justified and sanctified, but where does the Bible teach what you believe--- that we must first make ourselves righteous in order to earn salvation? The process of sanctification is that by which believers separate sin from themselves through their own diligent effort and the power of the Holy Spirit as they continue in their loving, obedient relationship with Jesus Christ. This work is the fruit of genuine faith in Christ and is not a matter of earning our salvation, nor is it something that we humans can do on our own strength. Jesus said we can do nothing apart from Him. Keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, therefore, is the manifestation of the righteousness of Christ in the life of believers. It only happens because the believer is abiding in the true vine, the Lord our righteousness. Jeremiah 23:5, 6--- "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: 'The Lord is our righteousness.' See also John 15. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Musicman1228 Posted January 24, 2011 Author Posted January 24, 2011 For whom did the service of Atonement on the Day of Atonement apply? Did it apply to the entire world or did it apply only to the nation of Israel? And what type of sin did the blood of the sacrifices that were made throughout the year carry to the horns of the Alter of Incense in the Holy Place in the Sanctuary? The only sins that were taken into the Holy Place were sins that had been confessed by the people of the nation of Israel, and forgiven by the blood of the sacrifice that THEY brought. They killed the sacrifice, this was not done by the priest. These were the FORGIVEN sins of the Kingdom of Heaven (at the time-Literal Israel). The only time the priests killed the sacrifice were on the Day of Atonement, and this was the Bull for the High Priest and his family, and the Ram for the Priests and their families, and then the Goat of the Lord for the nation of Israel. There were NO sins of any kind (either forgiven or not) placed on the Horns of the Golden Alter from the nations surrounding Israel. Was the Day of Atonement for the individual or was it for the corporate nation? According to the record it was for the nation. This means that in order for an individual to have their sins forgiven they had to be a member of the nation of Israel. The purpose of the Day of Atonement was for Israel to become RIGHTEOUS, and had NOTHING to do with the nations of the world. Jesus obviously knew this when He said what He did in John 3:16. It is up to us to understand the context in what Jesus said. Quote
wayfinder Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Originally Posted By: wayfinder Jesus shed His blood to purchase those who had become righteous through the process of sanctification. I agree that those whom Jesus will save in His kingdom will be both justified and sanctified, but where does the Bible teach what you believe--- that we must first make ourselves righteous in order to earn salvation? The process of sanctification is that by which believers separate sin from themselves through their own diligent effort and the power of the Holy Spirit as they continue in their loving, obedient relationship with Jesus Christ. This work is the fruit of genuine faith in Christ and is not a matter of earning our salvation, nor is it something that we humans can do on our own strength. Jesus said we can do nothing apart from Him. Keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, therefore, is the manifestation of the righteousness of Christ in the life of believers. It only happens because the believer is abiding in the true vine, the Lord our righteousness. Jeremiah 23:5, 6--- "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: 'The Lord is our righteousness.' See also John 15. John 3:5 NAS Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. I prefer the word reward and not earn. Jesus uses the word reward in this context in several places. The process of sanctification is to learn God's will and obey it for this is our life. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted January 24, 2011 Moderators Posted January 24, 2011 I prefer the word reward and not earn. Jesus uses the word reward in this context in several places. The process of sanctification is to learn God's will and obey it for this is our life. I think we agree here, Wayfinder. :-) Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted January 24, 2011 Moderators Posted January 24, 2011 For whom did the service of Atonement on the Day of Atonement apply? Did it apply to the entire world or did it apply only to the nation of Israel? It really only applied to those who had entered into covenant relationship with God and who participated in the events described in Lev. 16. But we have to remember that no one's sins were actually covered or forgiven because of the blood of animals. Their sins were forgiven on the basis of the future shedding of Christ's blood on the cross. The service of Atonement merely illustrated the sacrifice of Christ for the sins of the world. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
wayfinder Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 Originally Posted By: Musicman1228 For whom did the service of Atonement on the Day of Atonement apply? Did it apply to the entire world or did it apply only to the nation of Israel? It really only applied to those who had entered into covenant relationship with God and who participated in the events described in Lev. 16. But we have to remember that no one's sins were actually covered or forgiven because of the blood of animals. Their sins were forgiven on the basis of the future shedding of Christ's blood on the cross. The service of Atonement merely illustrated the sacrifice of Christ for the sins of the world. John317; You give me great hope. Exellent response. This is what I have been saying all along. Those who have made a covenant with God are bound by that covenant to keep it and love God. God in return will love and care for all who have promised to keep the covenant, these are those who are in the kingdom of heaven. This is the importance of the Seventh-day Adventist commitment to keep the ten commandments, for this is the covenant of God with His kingdom. John 14:21 NAS "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him." Quote
Musicman1228 Posted January 24, 2011 Author Posted January 24, 2011 John317, I, too, am impressed by your response. Most Christians either don't know or choose to ignore the Covenant relationship between His people and Himself, choosing rather to declare (based upon a faulty understanding) that the Covenant has been set aside in favor of 'grace'. Jesus did not come to die for the sins of the kingdom of the world. He came to save the Kingdom of Heaven, His Kingdom. Unless one is committed to the Covenant of the Kingdom (all 10 Commandments, including the 4th) then Jesus doesn't (and indeed cannot) consider you to be INSIDE His Kingdom. And this is all I have been saying all along. I am not and never have said that Jesus will not save people FROM the world. But these people have to demonstrate by their actions that they are no longer in the world but in the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus stated that His followers would be IN the world but not OF the world. Just saying that you love Jesus IS NOT ENOUGH; one must SHOW/DEMONSTRATE/DO what Jesus has asked them to do to confirm their identity as a member of His Kingdom. Remember the Wedding Feast where there was a man that entered without the proper garment? This person got into the wedding feast by saying to the attendants that he belonged there. But when confronted by the King and asked 'where is your wedding garment' this person HAD NO RESPONSE. Why? Because he knew that he had entered under false pretenses. His statement of love for the Bridegroom was enough to get him in but not keep him in the wedding. The wedding garment is the commitment to the Covenant of the Bridegroom, and the demonstration of that Covenant as proof of admittance. Quote
skyblue888 Posted January 24, 2011 Posted January 24, 2011 "Jesus did not come to die for the sins of the kingdom of the world." Musicman _____________________________________________________ In other words you are saying that Jesus did not come to die for the sins of the world. Who did He come to live and die for then? Certainly not for the righteous, as Richard stated, for "There is none righteous, no, not one." Rom.3:10. Christ came to justify the sinners, the ungodly, not the righteous. "While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Rom.5:10. "For if when we were enemies we were reonciled to God through the death of His son (merits of His sacrifice) much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." Rom.5:10. "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted righteousness." Rom.4:5. sky *the truly righteous always accuse themselves, even as the chiefs of sinners. 1 Tim.1:15. And these God justifies. Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
wayfinder Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 sky, You will only find those statements in Paul's letters and nowhere else. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted January 25, 2011 Moderators Posted January 25, 2011 Paul's writings are a part of the Bible. If you don't want to accept the evidence of the Bible, that's your business. What is it about those verses that you believe cannot be found anywhere else in the Bible? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Guest Posted January 25, 2011 Posted January 25, 2011 Mat 9:13 ...for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. MM, you forgot to comment on why Jesus said the exact opposite of what you're saying. Quote
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