For whom did Jesus Christ die?

[Musicman1228]

According to John, Jesus died for the Jewish nation and the scattered Israelites. That would also include any non-Israelites who have joined in the covenants together with Israel through faith in and faithfulness to the Jewish Messiah.

John 11:49-52

But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all, nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish."

Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

It was not John that made this prophecy but Caiaphas, who was NOT a servant of God, but a servant of Satan. Satan has his own prophets, and will use any opportunity to confuse an issue, and turn it away from the truth.

When Jesus said to the Syrophonecian woman that He came only to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel He identified the Kingdom of Heaven 'at that time'. Jesus also said that He would take the Kingdom away from Israel and give it to another people, that would accomplish what God has set them to do.

He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Matt.15:24.

Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. Matt.21:43.

Jesus also told Nicodemus that a person must be in the Kingdom of God to be saved.

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5.

Jesus also identified this new Kingdom and who this people would be and what they would do.

“Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. Matt.25:1-2 (to 13).

[Guest]

Isa 49:6 And he said, It is too small a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel: I will also give you for a light to the Gentiles, that you may be my salvation unto the ends of the earth.

[Ron Amnsn]

It was not John that made this prophecy but Caiaphas, who was NOT a servant of God, but a servant of Satan. Satan has his own prophets, and will use any opportunity to confuse an issue, and turn it away from the truth.

[wayfinder]

Ron, there is nothing in the context, of the word Ethnos, that the Son of God used in Matthew 21:43, that in any way implies Jews or Israel. If, as you say, the Son of God was changing the leadership than the burdon of proof is on you to show where God made clear, that Israel would have Gentile leadership who would show them what God has required of them (Israel), all along.

I agree that the account of the servants-bridesmaids-Bridegroom-marriage feast, has it's context in that of the Jewish/Hebrew marriage process, but this is only for our understanding as to what is required of us to be ready, and the importance of readiness. The kingdom of God, is the vineyard, and it was the kingdom/vineyard that was taken away from the Jews and given to all who would do the will of the Father, by producing the required fruits. This truth is well supported by scripture, scripture you choose to ignore or misinterpret.

Matthew 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.

Strong's Number: 1484 Transliterated Word: Ethnos

Definition

a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or living together

a company, troop, swarm

a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus

the human family

a tribe, nation, people group

in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, GentilesPaul uses the term for Gentile Christians

[Ron Amnsn]

Ron, there is nothing in the context, of the word Ethnos, that the Son of God used in Matthew 21:43, that in any way implies Jews or Israel. If, as you say, the Son of God was changing the leadership than the burdon of proof is on you to show where God made clear, that Israel would have Gentile leadership who would show them what God has required of them (Israel), all along.

In the Greek OT (Septuagint) and the New Testament, the word ethnos is used to refer to nations, peoples, and to groups of people as small as a household. It is used to refer to the Israelite people and to the non-Israelite people. Jesus said that the vineyard would be taken from the tenants and given to a group who produced the fruit of the kingdom of God. Jesus didn't say that those people would be Gentiles. It would be a group of people that produces the fruit of the kingdom of God.

The idea that God would reject the Israelites as a nation is contrary to God's covenant with Israel and contrary to what the OT prophets wrote. It is also contrary to what Jesus taught and contrary to what Paul taught.

You need to be careful using Strongs definitions for serious Bible study. Strongs is a Lexicon of Strong's personal interpretation of how the KJV translators used the words in the KJV. Usually his definitions agree with how Hebrew and Greek people used the words, but he added definitions to cover the way the KJV used the words, even if there was no linguistic justification for those definitions. So Strongs definitions are influenced by the theological biases of the KJV translators and by Strong's theological biases. If you believe that the KJV was transcribed by God in English, then you'll probably like the definitions offered in Strongs.

[wayfinder]

Ron, You may find this article applicable, I did.

http://strategyleader.org/peopledefinitions/nationpeopleshebgreek.html

[Ron Amnsn]

Ron, You may find this article applicable, I did.

The author of the article admits that he didn't actually check out all the various ways that ethnos was used in the Septuagint ("I checked a few places to get an idea if this was consistent."), but then he asserts, "This is equivalent to the English "Gentiles." Obviously, he didn't notice the places in both the Septuagint and the New Testament where ethnos refers specifically to the Israelites or Jews, which is not the way the word "Gentiles" is used in English.

Some NT examples of ethnos referring to the Jews:

Acts 10:22 They said, "Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and hear a message from you.

Act 24:2 After Paul had been summoned, Tertullus began to accuse him, saying to the governor, "Since we have through you attained much peace, and since by your providence reforms are being carried out for this nation,

Act 24:10 When the governor had nodded for him to speak, Paul responded: "Knowing that for many years you have been a judge to this nation, I cheerfully make my defense,

Act 24:17 Now after several years I came to bring alms to my nation and to present offerings;

Act 26:4 So then, all Jews know my manner of life from my youth up, which from the beginning was spent among my own nation and at Jerusalem;

Act 28:19 But when the Jews objected, I was forced to appeal to Caesar, not that I had any accusation against my nation.

[Musicman1228]

Ron said, "The idea that God would reject the Israelites as a nation is contrary to God's covenant with Israel and contrary to what the OT prophets wrote. It is also contrary to what Jesus taught and contrary to what Paul taught."

God always give everyone a choice; and this is exactly what He did for Israel from their beginning as the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.

“See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. IF you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today . . ." Deut. 30:15.

The use of the conjunction IF in this text goes to establishing the condition for the reward for Israel in doing the behavior God expected of them, that is, OBEDIENCE, and the reward for this was LIFE.

BUT IF your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,   (18) I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. Deut. 30:17-18.

Using another conditional expression BUT IF in this text God lets Israel know the reward for not doing the behavior God expected of them, that is, DISOBEDIENCE, and the reward for this was DEATH.

And if this was not direct enough in getting through their thick skulls God even makes it clear what He wants them to do:

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,"  Deut.30:19.

To say that God sets no conditions on the keeping of His Covenant with Israel and saying that God would never reject Israel as His chosen people, and saying that Israel today is still God's chosen people flies in the face of the idea that God gives all of us either as individuals or as nations a choice as to whether or not we will obey Him. Our salvation is based upon our choices and the actions we take with respect to those choices.

God left the choice up to Israel as a nation and they rejected Him AS A NATION, not as individuals. The only thing God could do is accept this choice an meet out the reward, which was to remove the Covenant from them and give it to another people (another nation-the Kingdom of Heaven today) who would bear the fruit of the Kingdom of Heaven.

[Musicman1228]

The idea of how 'grace' operates according to Paul removes any conditions about keeping the Covenant from both the Kingdom of God and the individual. Since these conditions of salvation no longer exist then it is no longer incumbent upon Christians that have said that they accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior to abide by any of the stipulations of the Covenant in proving their fitness for entry into the Kingdom of Heaven. Since the Covenant is in fact the 10 Commandments then keeping these Commandments no longer has any direct benefit to the 'believer' with respect to their salvation. Since the 10 Commandments are also called God's Law then the believer is then removed from 'under' that Law and is now under 'grace'. Since the 'grace' of God is extended to ALL who simple 'say' that they believe in Jesus Christ, and even to those that don't (because God loves all His created beings), everyone that is in the kingdom of the world will be saved along with those who 'say' they are in the Kingdom of Heaven because there is no law that applies to them with respect to their salvation. "Where there is no law, there is no violation" (Rom.4:15, Rom. 5:13). Therefore, the only logical conclusion is that everyone that ever lived will be saved no matter what.

If this is true and our choices don't matter then WHY ARE WE STILL HERE ON EARTH, AND NOT IN HEAVEN.

[John317]

The idea of how 'grace' operates according to Paul removes any conditions about keeping the Covenant from both the Kingdom of God and the individual. Since these conditions of salvation no longer exist then it is no longer incumbent upon Christians that have said that they accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior to abide by any of the stipulations of the Covenant in proving their fitness for entry into the Kingdom of Heaven. Since the Covenant is in fact the 10 Commandments then keeping these Commandments no longer has any direct benefit to the 'believer' with respect to their salvation.

The Ten Commandments are not the covenant. The New Covenant is the same one that God made with Abraham. It was ratified at the cross, but it was promised before the first covenant, or the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant, which was ratified at Mt. Sinai, was concerning the Ten Comamndments. The people promised to obey them.

Both the Old and the New Covenant are concerning the Ten Commandments. The difference is that in the Old Covenant, the moral law of God was written on stone, whereas under the New Covenant, God has promised to write the moral law on people's hearts and minds.

Salvation is not a matter of first obeying law. Salvation is all of God's grace to be received through faith/trust in Jesus Christ as one's personal Savior and Lord.

Genuine faith in the merits of Christ is manifested in the keeping of God's commandments. Keeping Christ's commandments is the fruit of genuine faith in Christ's righteousness. This is what Paul teaches, and it agrees with the rest of the Bible, including the teachings of Christ in all the Gospels.

The New Covenant is:

Jeremiah 31:33-34

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34] And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Paul wrote:

Romans 5:1

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:31

Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Romans 8:3-4

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, [4] in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Jesus said:

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' [23] And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

If anyone thinks that Paul teaches a gospel of lawlessness, let them read Romans 2: 1-16 and 1 Cor. 6: 9-10.

Among those verses is the statement found in

Romans 2:13

For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

[John317]

... Since the 'grace' of God is extended to ALL who simple 'say' that they believe in Jesus Christ, and even to those that don't (because God loves all His created beings), everyone that is in the kingdom of the world will be saved along with those who 'say' they are in the Kingdom of Heaven because there is no law that applies to them with respect to their salvation. "Where there is no law, there is no violation" (Rom.4:15, Rom. 5:13). Therefore, the only logical conclusion is that everyone that ever lived will be saved no matter what.

You're expressing here the viewpoint of the false gospel by those who believe faith releases the believer from obedience to the moral law of God. But it is shown to be false by Paul's own teachings, if you study all of Paul's writings.

In Paul's theology, genuine faith in Christ and love for God results in obedience to God and in the fruits of the Spirit.

Read Romans 2: 1-16; 6: 1,15; 8: 1-17; 1 Cor. 6: 9-11; 7: 19; 9: 21; Gal. 5: 16-26; Col. 1: 1-17; 2 Thess. 4: 3-8, among many others.

Paul wrote such things as:

2 Thes. 1:3-8

We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing. [4] Therefore we ourselves boast about you in the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith in all your persecutions and in th afflictions that you are enduring.

[5] This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— [6] since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, [7] and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels

[8] in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Paul's gospel agrees completely with Jesus' words in Matt. 7: 21-23:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' [23] And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

There's also no contradiction between Paul's theology and the Seventh-day Adventist understanding of the Investigative Judgment. In that Judgment, which is taking place right now, people's lives reveal whether we are true disciples and folowers of Christ. In other words, our lives are compared to our claims, and if our lives contradict our claim to love Jesus and to have made Him Lord of our life, we won't be judged worthy of a place in God's kingdom.

[skyblue888]

John, u often leave a long empty space at the end of ur posts. Is there a reason for that? I am sure u could make a better use of that space hehehe

But remember that at Sinai the ten words were first spoken by Christ before they were engraved on stones.

Out of the mouth of God the TEN WORDS are promises of everlasting life. John 12:50; Psalm 133:3.

sky

[John317]

John, u often leave a long empty space at the end of ur posts. Is there a reason for that?

I have no idea why that happens. I've wondered about it myself. I wish there was a way to keep it from happening.

[skyblue888]

ohhhhhh sorry :)

[Musicman1228]

John317 said, "The Ten Commandments are not the covenant."

And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone. Deut. 4:13.

John,

How much more definitive do you need God to be? The 10 Commandments ARE the Covenant . . . always have been and always will be. The 'new' Covenant is not a 'different' Covenant from the one God gave to Israel at Sinai; it is the exact same Covenant but put in a 'new' place, in the heart and mine rather than on two tablets of stone.

The process of sanctification is the process whereby God writes those same Laws, that same Covenant, on the hearts and in the minds of those who love Him; they prove that they love Him by keeping His Commandments. When you finally have that Covenant written on your heart you are then sealed in righteousness; it is at that point that you come into the light. Doing the Commandments is doing the truth, and this you must do FIRST, before you are sealed in the light. I can hear you screaming 'not true, not true'. But don't yell at me because I didn't say this, Jesus did;

For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God.” John 3:20-21.

[John317]

The Ten Commandments are not the covenant.

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

(quoting): And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone. Deut. 4:13.

John,

How much more definitive do you need God to be? The 10 Commandments ARE the Covenant . . . always have been and always will be.

Notice that Deut. 4: 13 says that the Ten Commandments are the things that the people are to perform. The people agreed to perform them. Their agreement with what God promised-- and their promise to obey the Ten Comamndments-- was the Old Covenant.

The covenant stipulated that the people were to obey the Ten Commandments, but the Ten Commandments were not themselves the covenant. A covenant is by definition an agreement. There is no agreement in the Ten Commandments. They are simply commands.

Similarly, under the New Covenant, the Ten Commandments are commands for us to do, but they are not themselves the agreement. The agreement is between God and Christ to write the principles of the law of God on the hearts of all those who place their faith/trust in Christ.

Exodus 34: 27, 28 is the renewal of the Old Covenant after the children of Israel broke the covenant that they had made before the making of the Golden Calf. These verses show the relationship between the actual agreement and the Ten Commandments:

Exodus 34:27-28

And the Lord said to Moses, "Write these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." [28] So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

"The words" and "commandments" are the same word in Hebrew. In fact, you will find that it is often translated as "The Ten Words." A literal translation is, "the commandments of the covenant, the ten Commandments." (See Robert Youngs Literal Translation.)

The Ten Commandments, then, are the commandments of the covenant; they are not the covenant itself. Notice, too, that God said the covenant was made "in accordance with [or concerning] these words."

To further clarify that this is true, let's examine closely how the agreement was made.

Here is where the agreement (Old Covenant) is described:

Exodus 19:3-8

while Moses went up to God. The Lord called to him out of the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the people of Israel: [4] You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself. [5] Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; [6] and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel."

[7] So Moses came and called the elders of the people and set before them all these words that the Lord had commanded him. [8] All the people answered together and said, "All that the Lord has spoken we will do." And Moses reported the words of the people to the Lord.

NOTE: There was a covenant as soon as Moses brought word to God that the people had accepted the conditions and had promised to obey all that the Lord has spoken.

This agreement was confirmed, or ratified, in Exodus 24: 3-8, by the blood of an ox:

Exodus 24:3-8

Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord and all the rules. And all the people answered with one voice and said, "All the words that the Lord has spoken we will do." [4] And Moses wrote down all the words of the Lord. He rose early in the morning and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel. [5] And he sent young men of the people of Israel, who offered burnt offerings and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen to the Lord. [6] And Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, and half of the blood he threw against the altar. [7] Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, "All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient." [8] And Moses took the blood and threw it on the people and said, "Behold the blood of the covenant that the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words."

NOTE especially the words, "the covenant (agreement) that the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words."

What proves that Jesus' covenant was not the same as the Old Covenant is the fact that the Old Covenant was already ratified at Mt. Sinai. It is self-evident that Jesus did not shed His precious blood to ratify a covenant that had already been ratified almost 1500 years before. That is why the Bible, the word of God, speaks of a "new covenant."

[John317]

....The process of sanctification is the process whereby God writes those same Laws, that same Covenant, on the hearts and in the minds of those who love Him; they prove that they love Him by keeping His Commandments.

I agree with the first part of your statement, the part about what sanctifiation is. It is certainly the process of God's writing the Ten Commandments on our hearts and minds. (This is not to deny another biblical aspect of sanctification, which is God's setting believers apart for God's possession at the same time that they are justified, or placed in right relationship with God.)

However, the Old Covenant included many more laws than simply the Ten Commandments. The Old Covenant also included the laws regarding circumcision, the sacrifices, and the civil laws. So if Christ died to ratify the same Old Covenant and the same laws, you would need to obey all the laws that were under the Old Covenant. That is very strong evidence that the covenant that Jesus ratified was not the Old Covenant. It was a "new covenant," just as He spoke of in the Gospels and in Jeremiah 31.

I also agree with you that we prove or demonstrate our love for Christ by obeying His commandments, including the Ten Commandments, which Christ Himself wrote and gave to Moses.

[John317]

....When you finally have that Covenant written on your heart you are then sealed in righteousness; it is at that point that you come into the light.

Where is your Bible evidence for this view?

How does one know when one has that covenant written on his heart?

Don't you need to come "to the light" [note: not "into"] before you are have the Covenant written on your heart?

(The Greek preposition in John 3: 20 is pros, "to.")

As you said, this writing is a process. Are you saying the process has to be completed before a person can "come to the light"?

And isn't "coming to the light" the same as coming to Jesus Christ, the Light of the world?

[John317]

.... Doing the Commandments is doing the truth, and this you must do FIRST, before you are sealed in the light. I can hear you screaming 'not true, not true'. But don't yell at me because I didn't say this, Jesus did;

Where does the Bible use the expression "sealed in the light"?

I agree that doing the commandments of God and keeping the faith of Jesus is the same as doing the truth.

But it sounds like you are saying that people must be sinless before they can be "sealed." I do believe that no one will be sealed while knowingly and willfully practicing sin.

Originally Posted By: Musicman

(quoting): For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God.” John 3:20-21.

This is simply saying that all honest-hearted people-- those who truly desire to do the will of God--- will come to Christ.

It is not saying that people must practice all the truth before coming to the Light. We learn much truth-- in fact, most of the truth--- AFTER coming to the Light. Jesus is the One who enlightens us. He enlightens us through the Holy Spirit and through His Holy Word. But most of this enlightenment comes after we come to Christ, not before.

[Musicman1228]

John said, "The covenant stipulated that the people were to obey the Ten Commandments, but the Ten Commandments were not themselves the covenant. A covenant is by definition an agreement. There is no agreement in the Ten Commandments. They are simply commands."

I'm sorry that you don't understand the Covenant, because this misunderstanding will cause you to believe what you evidently believe about the nature of the 10 Commandments.

You have made the unsupported statement that a covenant is an agreement, by which you mean a bi-lateral agreement. God does not deal in bi-lateral agreements. God stipulates, His people accommodate to those stipulations. You either choose to obey or you choose to disobey; there is no middle ground.

You also said, " It is self-evident that Jesus did not shed His precious blood to ratify a covenant that had already been ratified almost 1500 years before."

What gives you the idea that Jesus died to 'ratify' a covenant? What makes you think that the covenant was ratified at Sinai? Yes, the people agreed to keep the covenant, but just stating the willingness to keep the 10 Commandments given at Mt Sinai is not in itself ratification. God did not ask Israel to give their approval of the covenant, God issued the Covenant and then gave Israel the choice as to whether to obey.

God said that the 10 Commandments were the Covenant, and he meant it. You can obfuscate the definition all you want but that doesn't change the fact that the 'new' covenant is exactly the same as the 'old' covenant. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Unless you can prove to me that Jesus changed the Covenant by abrogating the 10 Commandments then I will continue to believe that the Covenant is the identifier of the members of the Kingdom of Heaven, along with holding to the testimony of Jesus Christ (Rev.12:17).

[John317]

The covenant stipulated that the people were to obey the Ten Commandments, but the Ten Commandments were not themselves the covenant. A covenant is by definition an agreement. There is no agreement in the Ten Commandments. They are simply commands.

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

I'm sorry that you don't understand the Covenant, because this misunderstanding will cause you to believe what you evidently believe about the nature of the 10 Commandments.

You have made the unsupported statement that a covenant is an agreement, by which you mean a bi-lateral agreement. God does not deal in bi-lateral agreements. God stipulates, His people accommodate to those stipulations. You either choose to obey or you choose to disobey; there is no middle ground.

A covenant is an agreement but what did I say that suggests to you that I think a covenant is a "bi-lateral agreement"?

I don't see where I suggested such a thing. I simply said a covenant is an agreement.

But the point I made early is that the Ten Commandments are not an agreement but are commands. They are the stipulations regarding those things which God commanded the people to perform. The Ten Comamndments contain no agreement.

Here is what the wikipedia says about "covenant":

Quote:

A covenant is a solemn agreement to engage in or refrain from a specified action. It is commonly found in religious contexts, where it refers to sacred agreements between God and human beings.

So, then, the Ten Commandments are the specified action that God commanded of Israel. The Old Covenant, however, was the agreement between God and Israel that they do what God commanded and in turn God would do what He had promised. It was this agreement that was ratified, or confirmed, by the blood of an ox.

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

this misunderstanding will cause you to believe what you evidently believe about the nature of the 10 Commandments.

Could you explain this? Based on what you said, I don't think you understand what I believe about the covenant. I certainly never said what you thought I did. So in light of that, how does this change what you think I was saying?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

What gives you the idea that Jesus died to 'ratify' a covenant?

Because the word of God says so. References to the new covenant are found in Matthew, Mark, Luke, 1 Corinthians, Hebrews, and Jeremiah.

Don't you accept the Gospel of Saint Matthew? Almost all of the ancient Greek manuscripts as well as most ancient translations of Matthew 26: 28 contain the word "new." And all of the manuscripts of Luke show that Jesus spoke of "the new covenant." It is also found in all the manuscripts of 1 Corinthians and all of the manuscripts of the book of Hebrews.

Matthew 26:28

for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Notice that even if you drop the "new" in this text, you still have Jesus telling us that he shed his blood to ratify "THE covenant."

Now it seems to me your problem is that if Jesus is not talking about shedding his blood for a "new covenant" like the Bible says he did, then you must conclude that He died to ratify the Old Covenant, which, however, was already ratified 1, 500 years earlier. That it was ratified (or affirmed) at that time is proven by Ex. 24: 8. Notice this original covenant was broken when the people made a Golden Calf, so God renewed it at Exodus 34: 10-35. Since the people broke it, God could well have chosen not to fulfill His promises, but because of God's love and mercy, He renewed the covenant.

Exodus 24:8

And Moses took the blood and threw it on the people and said, "Behold the blood of the covenant that the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words."

Notice the similar language of Christ:

Matthew 26:28

for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

The fact is that there is overwhelming biblical evidence to show that Jesus was speaking of "the new covenant," but one must be a Bible believing Christian to accept the evidence. If you reject 2/3 of the New Testament (which, by the way, means New Covenant), it would come as no surprise to me if you also reject the concept of the "New Covenant."

[John317]

...What makes you think that the covenant was ratified at Sinai? Yes, the people agreed to keep the covenant, but just stating the willingness to keep the 10 Commandments given at Mt Sinai is not in itself ratification. God did not ask Israel to give their approval of the covenant, God issued the Covenant and then gave Israel the choice as to whether to obey.

Please explain what Exodus 24: 8 is talking about if not the ratification or confirmation of the Old Covenant?

Exodus 24:8

And Moses took the blood and threw it on the people and said, "Behold the blood of the covenant that the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words."

What is Moses doing and why?

[John317]

... What makes you think that the covenant was ratified at Sinai? Yes, the people agreed to keep the covenant, but just stating the willingness to keep the 10 Commandments given at Mt Sinai is not in itself ratification. God did not ask Israel to give their approval of the covenant, God issued the Covenant and then gave Israel the choice as to whether to obey.

You are exactly right that the people's stating that they were willing to keep the 10 commandments was not in itself ratification. I did not suggest that it was.

That ratification was the shedding of the blood of the ox in Exodus 24: 8.

Similarly the ratifiication of the New Covenant came when Christ shed his precious blood.

Are you telling us that you don't believe that either covenant was ratified by the shedding of blood?

If so, how was the Old Covenant ratified or confirmed? Perhaps, though, you mean to say that the Old Covenant was never confirmed or ratified. Perhaps you mean to say that the ceremony described in Exodus 24: 8 had nothing whatsoever to do with confirming the Old Covenant.

[John317]

....God said that the 10 Commandments were the Covenant, and he meant it.

But that isn't what the text says. It says God wrote on the stone tablets the commandments of the covenant. These commandments were the Ten Commandments, and the people agreed to accept the stipulations in regard to what they should perform.

"Write these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." [28] So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

As I said before, "The words" and "commandments" are the same word in Hebrew. In fact, you will find that it is often translated as "The Ten Words." A literal translation is, "the commandments of the covenant, the ten Commandments." (See Robert Youngs Literal Translation.)

The Ten Commandments, then, are the commandments of the covenant; they are not the covenant itself. Notice, too, that God said the covenant was made "in accordance with [or concerning] these words."

Can you show me where the covenant is in the Ten Commandments? The agreement is not there. If you see it, please quote it for us. The stipulations are there, but the stipulations are never the same thing as the agreement, or covenant. The Old Covenant was ratified at Sinai, in Exodus 24: 8 and then again when it was renwed by God at Exodus 34: 10ff.