Holy Spirit as Deity

[Gail]

I heard this idea today:

How does one prove that the Holy Spirit is part of deity?

The Bible states that our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit.

It is idolatry to make a temple to anything but God.

[Gail]

I credit this to Eugene Prewitt...

[Musicman1228]

I heard this idea today:

How does one prove that the Holy Spirit is part of deity?

The Bible states that our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit.

It is idolatry to make a temple to anything but God.

Your statement is that the "Bible" says that our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Where in the "Bible" is this statement made? Thanks.

[Guest]

You know where MM. Are you going to trash Paul on Gail's thread?

[John317]

The following Bible evidence is some of the reasons for believing that the Holy Spirit is Deity:

Acts 5:3-4

But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? [4] While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

NOTE: Lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God. It is impossible to lie to an impersonal influence or power.

2 Cor. 13:14

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

NOTE: All three persons of the Godhead are named together above.

Matthew 28:19

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

NOTE: All three of those named in the above are distinct persons and are given in a way that implies their equality. Notice they have a single "name," which is Jehovah or God.

John 14:15-26

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments. [16] And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, [17] even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

[18] "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. [19] Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. [20]

.... [25] "These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. [26] But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

NOTE: The Holy Spirit does only what a divine person can do, which is to teach and "dwell" with us and in us. Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit with a masculine pronoun, even though Greek grammar required that he use a neuter pronoun.

John 16:7-14

Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. [8] And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: [9] concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; [10] concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; [11] concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

[12] "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. [13] When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. [14] He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

NOTE: The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, teaches, and speaks. Only a person does these things. The One who takes Christ's place on earth must be Deity, since Christ Himself is Deity.

Jesus refers to Him as "another Helper," and as the One to take Christ's place when He returned to heaven. Since Jesus, the first Helper, is a person, it only makes sense that the other Helper would also be a person.

[John317]

1 Cor. 3:16-17

Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? [17] If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

1 Cor. 6:19-20

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, [20] for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

The above verses are supported by Jesus' words:

John 14:17

even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

[Musicman1228]

There is proof in the Old Testament that God does not dwell where there is sin. In Ezekiel we read that God took the prophet into the Temple through a secret door and showed him the abject evil that was being perpetrated inside His House. Later, the Shehina glory left the Temple NEVER to return; this was proven when the curtain in the Temple was torn from top to bottom at exactly the same time as Jesus died on the cross. What was revealed in the Most Holy Place? NOTHING! The Glory of the Lord had vacated the Temple and shown that the Kingdom of Heaven (Israel) was bereft of God.

If God is true to form then the same thing occurs with us; if we maintain sin in our lives IN ANY FORM the Holy Spirit, that IS GOD, cannot dwell in us, and to say that He does is just kidding ourselves.

[Guest]

Which is why it's important that we not maintain sin in our lives.

[John317]

There is proof in the Old Testament that God does not dwell where there is sin. In Ezekiel we read that God took the prophet into the Temple through a secret door and showed him the abject evil that was being perpetrated inside His House. Later, the Shehina glory left the Temple NEVER to return; this was proven when the curtain in the Temple was torn from top to bottom at exactly the same time as Jesus died on the cross. What was revealed in the Most Holy Place? NOTHING! The Glory of the Lord had vacated the Temple and shown that the Kingdom of Heaven (Israel) was bereft of God.

Ezekiel 36:27

And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Was Ezekiel ever sinless? No. Yet God promised him that He would put His holy Spirit within him and cause him to walk in God's laws. That is always the order: first God gives us His Spirit, then we obey God. It doesn't happen the other way around. We are incapable by ourselves of even desiring to do God's will.

When did David plead with God not to take His Holy Spirit away from him? See Ps. 51: 11. It was not when David was without sin, was it? That verse proves that the Holy Spirit was with David even while David committed murder. It is obvious that David committed a terrible sin, yet the Holy Spirit did not leave him at that time. On the contrary, the Holy Spirit continued to work on David's heart and convict him of his sin. In fact, it was the Holy Spirit-- the Spirit of Christ-- which inspired David to write the Psalm concerning his sin with Bathsheba.

MM, how does your example prove that God does not dwell where there is sin? When were the Israelites or their temple without sin? NEVER. All it shows is that God has a limit to His patience and mercy. The limit is reached when people are settled into their rebellion and unwilling to give up their idols & sins. Compare Gen. 6: 3; Hosea 4: 14.

Even your own example here shows that the Shekina glory did indeed dwell for a long time in the temple. Ezekiel lived about 800 years after God began to dwell among the Israelites, who were never without sin. All their sacrifices prove they were a sinful people the whole time God dwelt among them from the Exodus to the time of Ezekiel.

When did God tell the people, "Let them make me a sactuary that I may dwell among them"? It was when they were sinful, wasn't it?

Jesus Christ Himself promised sinful people that the Holy Spirit would "dwell in them." John 14: 20. There was no suggestion that they would need to become sinless before the Holy Spirit took up residencce in them.

The Holy Spirit dwells in and with the church of God, which is the body of Christ. And it (or He) dwells with the church even though the church is imperfect and sinful.

All of this evidence proves that what Paul wrote about our bodies being the Temple of God is absolutely true.

Originally Posted By: Musicman

If God is true to form then the same thing occurs with us;

If you are consistent in this argument, you will have to abandon your idea that God allowed Satan to contribute his evil books to the word of God, the Bible. God didn't work that way in the Old Testament, and therefore, if God is true to form, He wouldn't have worked that way in the New Testament. The message of Christ, the gospel, is not mixed together with the messages of Satan. That is contrary to God's way of working.

It is contradictory for you to argue that God's Holy Spirit won't dwell with people who have the least bit of sin, yet argue as you do that God's holy writings dwell within the very same book (the New Testament) that you claim is filled with Satan's writings.

Originally Posted By: Musicman

if we maintain sin in our lives IN ANY FORM the Holy Spirit, that IS GOD, cannot dwell in us, and to say that He does is just kidding ourselves.

The truth is that if we want sin in our lives and have no interest in letting God clean us up, the Holy Spirit will eventually leave us and won't continue to convict us of sin. God doesn't force Himself upon us.

Read the following two verses:

Leviticus 15:31

"Thus you shall keep the people of Israel separate from their uncleanness, lest they die in their uncleanness by defiling my tabernacle that is in their midst."

NOTE: God's tabernacle was in the midst of a sinful people.

Ezekiel 36:27

And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

NOTE: As I said earlier, it is the Holy Spirit that causes us to have a desire to obey God.

Ezekiel was never sinless, yet God told him that He was going to "put my Spirit" within him.

[Woody]

Richard ... We will always maintain sin in our lives.

A good article on this is in the most recent Review that I just received. The featured article is entitled: "Oops I Guess I'm Going to Hell"

I've been told many times on this forum that I'm going to Hell. But this article at least gives me more hope than I've received here at CA.

Try it you might like it. Review January 27 2011

[John317]

What does it mean to "maintain sin" in the life? No one will be saved who maintains sin in their life. The Bible teaches that we're to forsake our sins, not "maintain" them. "Maintaining" them is just the opposite of forsaking them.

To "maintain sin" means you want to keep sin in your life. When you "maintain" your car, it means you keep your car in good working order. Similarly, maintaining sin means we are trying to keep sin in good working order in our lives. Ellen White calls this "cherishing sin." Both the Bible and Ellen White teach that people who cherish sin will be lost.

If you want to go to hell, keep cherishing your sins and don't let go of them.

No one has a right to be encouraged in their sin while holding on to their sins, and no one who cares about you will lie to you about this.

You have said you have a great interest in following Ellen White's writings but Ellen White doesn't teach that we are to maintain sin in our lives. She teaches that we are to separate sins from us, not keep them. She says that if we keep them in our lives, we will be lost. No one will be sealed with the seal of God while cherishing sin.

Study the following staetments on this subject by the prophet of God; they make it absolutely clear that no one will be saved who "maintains sin" in their lives:

Quote:

He who has not sufficient faith in Christ to believe that He can keep him from sinning, has not the faith that will give him an entrance into the kingdom of God.--Manuscript 161, 1897.

362

{3SM 360.4}

"Oh, yes," some say, "we are saved in doing nothing. In fact, I am saved. I need not keep the law of God. I am saved by the righteousness of Jesus Christ." Christ came to our world to bring all men back to allegiance to God. To take the position that you can break God's law, for Christ has done it all, is a position of death..{FW 71}

This goody-goody religion that makes light of sin and that is forever dwelling upon the love of God to the sinner, encourages the sinner to believe that God will save him while he continues in sin and he knows it to be sin. This is the way that many are doing who profess to believe present truth. The truth is kept apart from their life, and that is the reason it has no more power to convict and convert the soul. There must be a straining of every nerve and spirit and muscle to leave the world, its customs, its practices, and its fashions. . . . {3SM 155.1}

Second Advent Ends Soul Preparation-- 1888.--The robe of your character must be washed till it is spotless, in the fountain opened for all uncleanness. Your moral worth will be weighed in the balances of the sanctuary, and if you are found wanting, you will be at an eternal loss. All the coarseness, all the roughness, must be removed from your character before Jesus comes; for when He comes, the preparation for every soul is ended. {3SM 155.3}

If you have not laid aside your envy, your jealousies, your hatred one against another, you cannot enter into the kingdom of God. You would only carry the same disposition with you; but there will be nothing of this character in the world to come. Nothing will exist there but love and joy and harmony. Some will have brighter crowns than others, but there will be no jealous thoughts in any heart among the redeemed. Each one will be perfectly satisfied, for all will be rewarded according to their work.--Signs of the Times, Feb. 10, 1888. {3SM 155.4}

[Guest]

Richard ... We will always maintain sin in our lives.

A good article on this is in the most recent Review that I just received.

No it's not. I just read the article, and it has nothing to do with maintaining sin. It's all about sins that you commit by accident, or in ignorance. When you maintain something, you take care of it. You make sure that it has a place to live. I have never said: "Oops, I fed my dog" or "oops, I changed the oil in my car".

I don't see how you can say this article is about maintaining sin in your life, or that we will always maintain sin in our lives, and still be fine in the sight of God. Maybe some wishful thinking on your part, I don't know.

Re-read the article and you will see that nowhere does it talk about maintaining sin. In fact the last little paragraph sums up very nicely what the article was about.

With Christ and the Cross

In Luke 23:33, 34, we come across a group of misled, misunderstanding people watching Christ hang on the cross. On the brink of death, in the midst of sacrifice, Jesus gazes upon the ignorant who have sponsored His torture.9 He makes a plea that points to His intercessory ministry at the right hand of the Father and gives us comfort in those times we are ignorant of our evil. When we make an “oops.”

“Then Jesus said, Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

[John317]

Figures.

Woody, did you thoroughly read that article?

I hope our church's paper is not saying what you claim it is. That would go totally against what the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy teach. Our church would then be speaking with a "forked tongue."

You can cause great confusion for those who listen to you when you teach people that "we will always maintain sin in our lives." If that is true, how do you understand the High Priestly work of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary? What is that all about?

[Woody]

I read the entire article last night and found great strength and encouragement in it.

I will continue to have my sins. Oops and on purpose. By accident and intended. But that is what repentence is for. Jesus died for my sins. I will in no way discount that when I come to him asking for forgiveness. I receive the forgiveness no matter how many times I might return to my sins. And I do return to them. I sin. He forgives. Praise God for what He did for me 2,000 years ago.

Jesus does not limit His forgiveness to just the Ooops sins. He forgives ALL sins. Praise His Holy Name.

[Guest]

Jesus does not limit His forgiveness to just the Ooops sins. He forgives ALL sins. Praise His Holy Name.

Only if you are willing to forsake them, which you are not, by your own admission. You are clinging to a position of death.

"Oh, yes," some say, "we are saved in doing nothing. In fact, I am saved. I need not keep the law of God. I am saved by the righteousness of Jesus Christ." Christ came to our world to bring all men back to allegiance to God. To take the position that you can break God's law, for Christ has done it all, is a position of death.. {FW 71.2}

To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Rev 2:7

He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. Rev 2:11

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Rev 3:21

Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Jesus does not limit His forgiveness to just the Ooops sins. He forgives ALL sins. Praise His Holy Name.

Only if you are willing to forsake them, which you are not, by your own admission. You are clinging to a position of death.

"Oh, yes," some say, "we are saved in doing nothing. In fact, I am saved. I need not keep the law of God. I am saved by the righteousness of Jesus Christ." Christ came to our world to bring all men back to allegiance to God. To take the position that you can break God's law, for Christ has done it all, is a position of death.. {FW 71.2}

To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Rev 2:7

He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. Rev 2:11

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Rev 3:21

Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

100% on the money, Richard. There IS a limit to forgiveness, and that Limit is 70, as we see in Dan. 9:24 and in the Restoration/Jubilee calendar in Leviticus 25. Jesus asked Peter "How many times should a man forgive his brother?" Peter said seven times, thinking he understood the significance of the number 7. But Jesus told Peter, "Seventy times (7)". Jesus took away the trusteeship of the Covenant from Israel at the end of the 490 year (70 x 7) probationary period given to Israel to accomplish the will of God for Israel (Dan. 9:24). When Israel violated 70 Sabbath years God threw Israel out of the Promised Land and into captivity in Babylon.

God will not forgive sinners forever; eventually there well come a day of reckoning, and that day is not far off.

[John317]

Woody, there are conditions to God's forgiveness, which you apparently don't recognize or understand. You claim to accept the Bible and Ellen White. Both those sources teach that there are conditions to forgiveness. Those conditions include sincere repentence and a forsaking of sin.

Jesus said that if we're not willing to give up everything for Him, we can't be His disciple. He won't accept anything less than 100% of us. As long as there are sins in our life that we know of but which we are unwilling to give over to Him, we can't be His disciple.

Let's say that I enjoy looking at porn (which I used to). I know that God is telling me to stop looking at it, but I don't want to stop. I want to keep that sin in my life. What does that say? It says that porn and my pleasure in it are more important to me than Christ. So, in that case, who is my Lord? Myself and my pornography.

We could substitute any sinful practice in the place of the pornography and the principle would be the same. Jesus calls us to give Him our entire selves, not part of us.

[skyblue888]

"We will always maintain sin in our lives."

Did Jesus who was our example always maintain sin in his life?

[John317]

Romans 8: 7 says the sinful mind is not subject to God nor indeed can be. But the Holy Spirit will give us the mind of Christ if we want Him to. Phil. 2: 5.

[Musicman1228]

The love of God is unconditional-the redemption of God isn't.

God will always love ALL of His creation, and will remember all of those who rejected Him forever, including Lucifer. There will always be a hole in the heart of God for those that refused the offer to learn the truth about salvation and refused to have their debt to sin paid by the blood of the Lamb.

There are those that hold that God will save everyone in spite of themselves, and that is called 'universalism'. But clearly God did not save all of the nations that surrounded Ancient Israel, because they did not come into the then Kingdom of Heaven. ONLY those that are in the Kingdom of Heaven have the opportunity to be saved, and not all of those people will be saved as is exemplified by the prophecy of the Bridesmaids in Matt.25:1-13.

[Dr. Waite]

John:

So, do you worship a third person or 'god' called "GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT"? If so, is there a plain "Thus saith the LORD" telling us to do this?

[karl]

Isaiah 37:23

Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted thy voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? even against the Holy One of Israel.

Mark 3:29

But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Luke 12:10

And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

John 3:8

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

[John317]

... We will always maintain sin in our lives.

"Maintain"? That means we will always work to keep sin in good working order in our lives, something like the way we work to maintain our cars in good working order. Is this what you mean by "maintaining sin in our lives"?

I believe without a doubt that if we "maintain sin in our lives," we will be lost. I can't harmonize your staement with hundreds of statements in both the Bible and in Ellen White's writings.

We will certainly continue to have a sinful nature until the return of Christ, but that is not the same thing as "maintaining sin in our lives."

So I am wondering what you mean by "maintaining sin." Perhaps I am not understandisng your meaning.

The Bible and SOP clearly teach that God's true people will be seperating sin from themselves, not maintaining it. That is what the Investigative Judgment,-- and the process of sanctification-- is all about. It was also what the entire sacrifical system was designed to teach: transferring sin from humans to the sanctuary where they can be disposed of.

[John317]

John:

So, do you worship a third person or 'god' called "GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT"? If so, is there a plain "Thus saith the LORD" telling us to do this?

When we worship God, we worship the entire Godhead, and the eternal Godhead consists of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Awhile back you claimed that Ellen White never sang the words, "Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost." But I posted the quotes from her own writings where this is stated. Did you see it?

That is obviously worship in song. Ellen Whtie said that she urged all Seventh-day Adventists to sing this song.

When you sanctify the Father in your heart or mind, are you not worshipping Him? Who is sanctifying us? What says the Scriptrues?

God the Father elects us; Jesus Christ loves us and died for us; and the Holy Spirit makes us holy.

2 Thes. 2:13

But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

1 Peter 1:2

accord ing to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:

May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

All three persons of the heavenly trio are involved in our salvation in the same way that all three persons of the eternal Godhead were involved in the creation of the world.

What or who do you believe the Holy Spirit is, if not the third person of the Godhead?

Am wondering if you believe Ellen White was a genuine prophet of God. If so, what are your thoughts about what she wrote in the statements found in Evangelism, pages 614-617?

[John317]

The love of God is unconditional-the redemption of God isn't.

That is for sure! Important distinction. Some people get those two things confused, and it can lead to disaster.