Do We Committ "Wilful" or "Deliberate" Sin At Least Every Day?

[teresaq]

This is not about whether we can, or cannot, overcome sin.

Do we committ "wilful" or "deliberate" sin at least every day, or several times a day?

Do we understand the question, the point, being asked? :)

[Woody]

I would say several times a day.

[Gail]

My question is, then, Why?

A Christian believer's response may be different than a non-believer's, but I am curious. :)

[Woody]

Like with most discussions Gail ... it becomes a matter of definitions.

[Gail]

Shall we delve?

[phkrause]

Very interesting question teresaq. I do understand the question, but not sure I agree about willful or deliberate sin. I think as a christian and as we become closer to Jesus we feel that we could be willfully or deliberately sinning and I do believe that there might be times that maybe we actually do. As a non christian I'm not sure that we do because we really don't know the 10c's, even though I want to believe that most know right from wrong. Just my opinion and the way I see it.

[Woody]

Well Gail. I'm not so sure about delving.

CoA has already asked me why I would want punishment. And this just sounds like a set up for punishment.

I've been down this road many times.

But again ... it always comes down to definitions. And in the past when I define it as I know it to be from scripture and Ellen White ... others redefine it and attack me and my beliefs from their personal definitions.

So not wanting that to happen again ... I am somewhat leary to repeat myself on this subject.

[teresaq]

Uh, no. The question is not understood. Maybe what I mean is not fully thought out...We have gotten trapped on one side or the other of the argument without stepping back to think about it.

I don't know what Woody is thinking, but since I first heard this some time ago, I realized that, of course we willfully/deliberately sin. A little thought will show why that is so.

When I first started on this walk I didn't see some things as sin, more along the lines of attitude than acts. That may be where we are getting hung up. I saw "anger" as justifiable many times, not realizing that my anger in no way resembled God's anger, so yes, I willfully/deliberately gave in to my anger.

The point is that we willfully sin at least every day...

Then there is another side to this that I believe is Woody's point. Who of us can say that we have not willfully blown up at our spouse/child/other knowing full well it is wrong? Be honest now, you wouldn't want to be thought of as a liar. lol

[Sonny]

I would define a willful sin as one where we are tempted and do not yield that temptation over to God's Spirit!

For example let's say it's a hot, steamy day. I stop at a 7-eleven. I ask the clerk if she has a 7-up or Sprite. She says that she's fresh out, but she does offer me a nice cold beer.

Before I go on let's make the assumption that drinking beer is a sin. Of course not all Christians agree here, but let's say it is wrong. So my nature tempts me. BTW the nature tempts through deception - it's crafty - it will even use the Bible.

So my nature says - doesn't the Bible say a little wine for thy stomach's sake? So I say to the clerk, okay I'll take a beer. Just before I grab the beer my Pastor drives up. I tell the clerk, never mind. Did I sin?

[Woody]

We could have an entire thread regarding if it is a sin to drink beer. And we DO have one. So far, I don't believe they have come to any agreed upon conclusions. And this is just ONE "sin". So, it can be an overwhelming task to define our terms. And not only do we have to tackle the term "sin" but also "willful". And the term "willful" is not any easier to define than "sin". But when you combine the two and are talking about "willful sin" then we really struggle.

No Gail. I don't think it is possible to come to agreement on this question. I give up before we start.

[Bravus]

For me this is a distinction without a difference, and kind of an odd rationalisation that 'it's only sin if you know it is'. It means someone who has never been taught that murder is wrong can murder me and it's not wrong. That's clearly nonsense. It's an extreme example but the logic is solid: intention is not what matters, results are. Given that, do we sin every day? Yes. All it means is we need a Saviour every day. (And a Sanctifier, too, so that we sin less frequently.)

[Woody]

A big AMEN to that Bravus.

[Gail]

I agree!

By the time one makes it to actually doing the sin, whatever it be, it has already gone through the mind process.

Today I was talking to someone about that... how the "loving God and your neighbour", a heart thing, can be harder to accomplish than a set of rules we can grasp in our understanding.

Yet the whole shibang of commandments HANG on that- love for God and love for our fellow man.

[Gail]

Oops- thanks, Woody for the reminder. I had not noticed that we are in Original Thoughts!!

[Woody]

Excellent Gail. I was thinking the same thing today.

How many times a day do we pass up opportunities to bless someone by helping them. This is what Jesus told us to do.

So when we pass the homeless person on the bridge .... are we sinning? I think so.

[Woody]

Yes. Whoever put this discussion in this forum did a dis-service. It makes it really ackward to hold a conversation. Can we vote to move it?

[Gail]

Beautiful- the sin of omission as well as commission! Nice point!

Many times I just wonder how much our idea of how one walks with Christ matches His!

To me it just tells me that I need to look at His life and God's character both in the OT and the NT. Then I need to ask for HIS mind, the ability to see what He sees.

It seems like a full-time job!!

[Sonny]

But you must remember...murder is not just an act. Jesus said that if you hate someone you've murdered him/her. Therefore murder is also a thought.

Case in point: We are told that Lucifer, turned Satan, hated Christ. Yet he never touched Him. Was Satan guilty of murder? According to God's law, yes.

[Bravus]

Pfft - I'd rather people hate me than murder me, thanks all the same. Of course in both cases they've fallen short of the glory of God, but in terms of real consequences there's no comparison.

And tithing mint, annise and cummin in terms of our thoughts misses the weightier matters of the law.

My point was very simple: we all sin every day. Impossible to help it as fallen beings in a fallen world, even if it's only by omission.

Therefore we all need a Saviour. The danger of the doctrine that we can cease 'wilful sin' is that it might lead us to think we can do without one...

[Sonny]

In my example I ask did I sin (assuming beer drinking is sin)? Remember in my mind I was ready to drink the beer, but then I saw my pastor so I refused it. Did I sin? Yes, because sin begins in the mind. A cherished thought....When my nature tempts me and I for one reason or another do not allow God to take control of it - I sin. The sin is not allowing God to have control of my nature. What results is sin. Sin, therefore, is living life outside God's will. Sin is also an act.

So a deliberate sin is not allowing God to have my nature when temptation comes.

[Woody]

yes. Good Point Sonny. We sin in our minds even if it doesn't come outward. We sin so much it's a shame to think we don't. Or that 'some' think we don't or shouldn't.

Actually some members of the SDA church are teaching that we need to overcome all sin in our lives in order to be saved in God's kingdom.

This is heresy in the highest form. Christ is the one who overcame FOR us. Because He knew we could never answer the curse of the Law.

Both scripture and The Spirit of Prophecy are clear on this matter.

[teresaq]

#424331 NO!! I purposely started it here for the ability to have a civil discussion, even if partially misunderstood. lol

As to another of your posts, Woody, you brought up not helping someone when the opportunity arises...so that would be an example of "willful" sin, even if we did not realize it at that moment, right?

Perhaps before a "no" answer is recorded a review of Matthew 25 might be in order.

[Gail]

And not only that, but He will overcome sin IN us as well. Not that our eyes need to constantly be watching our performance, but ask God for help in a sin matter and watch what He will do!

And don't be surprised if He changes your mind about some things, and/or create conviction in matters different in what you expected.

If you are looking at YOU, you will be a goner. Do not even think about how you did today, and worry about it and get discouraged. Just look at Jesus instead of yourself (or others, for that matter! Some people take to studying the downfalls of others) Study His life, ask for His mindset and claim the promise of the indwelling Spirit. See in the Bible what things were important to Him and ask for help simply to walk with Him.

He tells us that His yoke is easy and His burden is a light one. He offers a trade! Take Him up on it! Why offer to pull yourself and others down by dwelling on either your mistakes or those of others and before you know it you have no more faith and just a handful of disillusionment?

Now THERE'S an experiment! :)

[teresaq]

#424340 Another excellent example of committing willful sin often without even realizing it.

A reminder, please, to the thoughtful participants...This is not, I repeat not, about whether we should or shouldn't commit willful sin, nor is it about whether we will or won't commit willful sin til the end. Or if it is "ok" to commit willful sin...

It is asking the question, do we here and now commit willful sin, often without knowing it.

[teresaq]

off-topic, Gail, but I did need the reminder given the battle I'm in to love my enemy who continues to hurt me and others regularly. :)