Did Jesus die just for us?

[Guest truthseeker007]

Often i am wondering why Jesus sacrificed himself. Is it only to save people from eternal destruction?Or was it also to demonstrate the true character of satan and to have the legitimate right to destroy satan and his angels?

Would it be possible to convict satan and his angels without Jesus' sacrifice? If the answer is yes, Jesus must have died just to save us, which would mean that a relationship from mankind with Jesus is much more personal.

Please share your thoughts about this

[hch]

Often i am wondering why Jesus sacrificed himself. Is it only to save people from eternal destruction?Or was it also to demonstrate the true character of satan and to have the legitimate right to destroy satan and his angels?

Would it be possible to convict satan and his angels without Jesus' sacrifice? If the answer is yes, Jesus must have died just to save us, which would mean that a relationship from mankind with Jesus is much more personal.

Please share your thoughts about this

[Guest truthseeker007]

Thanks HCH, very usefull answers. Seems like Jesus not only cared about this world, but also about the principals of righteousness (the law). Jesus was very principal, even unto death. I think this is important for all Christians. To hold on to their faith despite all the condemnations and the hatred we receive in this world, even unto death.

[LifeHiscost]

To hold on to their faith despite all the condemnations and the hatred we receive in this world, even unto death.

When Jesus died, He died the sinner's second death, without any hope of coming forth from the grave after giving all that He had and was at that time. Upon recognizing that Jesus was willing to be lost to eternity, that I might be given the choice to receive the gift of eternal living bliss with His Father and all the Holy angels, even if He could not be there, places the promises of the Word and His relationship with me for my sure salvation, beyond any beggarly reliance of personal effort or self sufficiency on my part to make a difference in where I spend eternity, other than the willing submission to His Divine will.

"My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?

Why are You so far from helping Me,

And from the words of My groaning?"

Psalm 22:1 NKJV

Psalm 22:1 "This is beyond all others 'The Psalm of the Cross.' It may have been actually repeated by our Lord when hanging on the tree; it would be too bold to say so, but even a casual reader may see that it might have been. It begins with, 'My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?' and ends [with the thought], 'It is finished.' For plaintive expressions uprising from unutterable depths of woe, we may say of this psalm, 'There is none like it'" (Charles Haddon Spurgeon, The Treasury of David). Quoted in the Gospels (Matt. 27:46; Mark 15:34; and alluded to in Matt. 27:35, 39, 43 and John 19:23-24, 28) as being fulfilled at Christ's crucifixion.

"`I am the vine, ye the branches; he who is remaining in me, and I in him, this one doth bear much fruit, because apart from me ye are not able to do anything.."

John 15:5 YLT

God blesses!

[mat]

Often i am wondering why Jesus sacrificed himself. Is it only to save people from eternal destruction?

[Tobiwan]

It seems very clear to me that Jesus reconciled things in Heaven and on Earth. In a perfect place the mystery of sin happened. "The Great Controversy between Christ and Satan" over what God is like was being played out in Christ's interaction with the Angels, and is on going on the stage of this Earth. The demonstration In the Garden and on the Cross shows that what God says about sin is true. Sin pays a wage and that wage is Death. He who knew no sin was made to be sin. Like Paul told the jailer, Believe what Jesus says and you will be saved. This is for the whole universe.

All God asks is that we believe the evidence He has given that He can be trusted. If we trust Him, He will save us

[LifeHiscost]

All God asks is that we believe the evidence He has given that He can be trusted. If we trust Him, He will save us

May I suggest the rub comes when an individual hasn't had opportunity to know Who is responsible for the good things that occur to allow him/her to experiance a quality life. That's where the joy of introducing Jesus to someone comes in.

"So don’t be misled, my dear brothers and sisters. Whatever is good and perfect comes down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow. He chose to give birth to us by giving us his true word. And we, out of all creation, became his prized possession." James 1:16-18 NLT

"Still later he appeared to the eleven disciples as they were eating together. He rebuked them for their stubborn unbelief because they refused to believe those who had seen him after he had been raised from the dead.

And then he told them, “Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone. Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned" Mark 16:14-16 NLT

God blesses!

[Sonny]

Often i am wondering why Jesus sacrificed himself.

The universe, besides our fallen world, is under law. Not so much the Ten Commandments (TC) - words written in stone - but under the principle of self-emptying love called "agape", which is in harmony with the TC.

God created this world under law - under the principle of agape. Outside of agape is sin, which always leads to death. Hence the wages of sin is death or sin pays with death. That, of course is the first death. The second death is where God abandons you to your unbelief and hence there's no hope of resurrection.

Christ came to save us from what the Bible calls "the second death". He came to deliver us from the curse of the law. See Galatians chapter 3.

This is clear in the following:

Gal 4:4 "But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons."

You see the law condemns our humanity because of three reasons:

1] Our sinful thoughts/motives

2] Our sinful acts

3] Our sinful humanity - a fallen life indwelt with sin.

There's no way we can save ourselves from under the law. We are a bunch of sinners. Even if we stopped sinning at the thought level and outwardly we still have our fallen, humanity that is unfit for heaven. That's why Paul says, "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God".

How did Christ save us - not only us - but the whole human race from the curse of the law?

He did it by taking upon Himself (i.e., His Deity) our fallen humanity. That humanity belongs to the fallen race. We all share that humanity from Adam and Christ, at the incarnation, took that upon Himself.

For some thirty plus years Christ lived a perfect life in our flesh and on the cross Christ, as a man, experienced the second death. He took our curse...

For those who accept what Christ did some 2000 years ago they are no longer "under the curse of the law." This is justification by faith. And then there's sanctification, which is also by faith - experiencing agape. And glorification - when we receive a sinless humanity complete without a trace of indwelling sin at the second coming.

[fccool]

Sonny,

Do you believe that marrying your sister is in the realm of God's law and purpose? I.E. is it a sinful act? If it is, what would fundamentally have to change from making it to be morally wrong to now be morally right ... and the other way around?

[Sonny]

What does this have to do with the subject at hand?

[fccool]

We are talking about the subjective morality of substitution sacrifice.

[Sonny]

No, my life...your life died in Christ.

[fccool]

You just proved my point :)

[Sonny]

You just proved my point

That's not substitution....

We all share one life - the life of Adam after the fall. Yes, individually we have different experiences, but collectively we have one humanity. We are all copies of the original.

[wayfinder]

Jesus was put to death to purchase men and women from every tribe and tongue and people and nation to be His kingdom(Revelation 5:9,10). When purchased, we become bondservants of the Son of God and must obey His will. When we do His will we practice the truth; therefore we must know the truth. The truth is the testimony of Jesus, if we study the testimony of Jesus we learn the truth and the truth will set us free (John 8:31,32). The truth cleanses us from lies, which are sin. The Spirit of Truth sanctifies us with the truth and leads us into the kingdom of God. The covenant of the kingdom of God is the Ten Commandments, we are not in the kingdom of God and God is not our God if we have not promised to keep His commandments. John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me; and he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him, and will disclose Myself to him." Without the commandments, there is no love and no disclosure.

[Tobiwan]

The real rub comes that we have spent so much time end energy, fussing and fighting about the thousands of questions that the answers have not yet been revealed. Instead of "seeking first" and "choosing the best part" that will not be taken away from us.

I grew up with the idea that because I sinned, someone had to be beat (punished), and thank God, Jesus was there to take my beating. That made no sense then and even less now.

I feel very strongly that we should be spending a lot more time on the life of Christ, especially the closing days. I believe the Holy Spirit will deepen our understanding of the reasons and impact of what and why Jesus did what He did, and then the power of Heaven and the aid of the Angels will be added to our feeble attempts to finish giving people the opportunity to "know Who is responsible for the good things that occur". The experience of a quality live is denied a lot of people, while we continue the petty arguing over this or that issue.

We need to lift up Jesus in each and every presentation. Then and only then will the world be drawn to Him. Then the rescue of Jesus' friends will become necessary and the good life will become the GREAT life.

[Tobiwan]

Sonny,

Do you believe that marrying your sister is in the realm of God's law and purpose? I.E. is it a sinful act? If it is, what would fundamentally have to change from making it to be morally wrong to now be morally right ... and the other way around?

Not sure this is on topic. But in a perfect world where there is no disease and sin and every action is motivated by unselfish love, we can only guess what kind and to what extent relationships will exist.

A long time ago both Cain and Seth married their sisters.

[Tobiwan]

We are talking about the subjective morality of substitution sacrifice.

The question is "did Jesus die for me, or instead of me?

The Jesus people I hung around with back in the early 70's (wow, almost 40 years ago) had a saying " Born once die twice, born twice die once"

Could it be really that simple

did Jesus die just for us? the answer is No. Lifting up Jesus drew all to Him. Men, is supplied in the text and has a very real potential of placing limits on the power and Love of God.

[LifeHiscost]

The experience of a quality live is denied a lot of people, while we continue the petty arguing over this or that issue.

We need to lift up Jesus in each and every presentation. Then and only then will the world be drawn to Him. Then the rescue of Jesus' friends will become necessary and the good life will become the GREAT life.

And your argument for this that puts the other's ideas to rest is what?

God blesses!

[Tobiwan]

I am trying not to argue about anything anymore. It is of no help, it generates more heat then light, and we do not have the time for that. We are called for a higher purpose.

Ideas are great and it has been my experience that "others" are very often more interesting then mine. I don't have all the answers and not even all the questions. However it seems very little good comes from arguments except to separate people and create an "us vs. them" situation. We need to press together.

[Gail]

The real rub comes that we have spent so much time end energy, fussing and fighting about the thousands of questions that the answers have not yet been revealed. Instead of "seeking first" and "choosing the best part" that will not be taken away from us.

I grew up with the idea that because I sinned, someone had to be beat (punished), and thank God, Jesus was there to take my beating. That made no sense then and even less now.

I feel very strongly that we should be spending a lot more time on the life of Christ, especially the closing days. I believe the Holy Spirit will deepen our understanding of the reasons and impact of what and why Jesus did what He did, and then the power of Heaven and the aid of the Angels will be added to our feeble attempts to finish giving people the opportunity to "know Who is responsible for the good things that occur". The experience of a quality live is denied a lot of people, while we continue the petty arguing over this or that issue.

We need to lift up Jesus in each and every presentation. Then and only then will the world be drawn to Him. Then the rescue of Jesus' friends will become necessary and the good life will become the GREAT life.

Good and even more-

Jesus lived a life in harmony with His Father's will. He now provides us through the Spirit the mindset to live as he did, to become reconciled in our hearts to God. this is good news to us right now!

[Gail]

Robert, I agree with you about lifting our eyes to Jesus and studying His life and death. As time goes by there is more and more that I'm finding out that makes me go, WOW!

[skyblue888]

Often i am wondering why Jesus sacrificed himself. Is it only to save people from eternal destruction?Or was it also to demonstrate the true character of satan and to have the legitimate right to destroy satan and his angels?

Would it be possible to convict satan and his angels without Jesus' sacrifice? If the answer is yes, Jesus must have died just to save us, which would mean that a relationship from mankind with Jesus is much more personal.

Please share your thoughts about this

truthseeker007

_______________________________________

I read all of the replies and I did not see one post addressing the second question. There are some among adventists who are now saying that if Lucifer did not need a substitute in order to be pardoned and reinstated, why should man need one?

In his pamphlet titled The Spirit of The Papacy, A.T. Jones powerfully shows that in the call to Lucifer to return, God was offering to give His only begotten Son and Himself in Him.

"From the moment Lucifer took his first false step, God was offering to give His only begotten Son and Himself in Him; and the Son Himself was freely offering Himself to die a sacrifice; to save him who had sinned--to save this very one who was here making the charge and insisting upon it that God would deny Himself nothing, and would make no sacrifices for anybody...

The sacrifice of Christ was in the invitation to Lucifer to return to God as certainly as it was in the invitation of man to return to God. For Lucifer had sinned, and from that moment he was a sinner as certainly as ever man was a sinner. And we have before found that God's eternal purpose in Christ is the same toward all: that purpose to 'gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in Heaven, and which are on earth.' Ephesians 3:8-11. Lucifer had sinned and was a sinner when God invited him to return to God. But God did not invite him to return and take his place as of old as a sinner. Sin can not abide in the presence of God. Therefore the invitation of God to sinful Lucifer to return was in itself the offer to him of salvation from sin, that he might return and take his place in righteousness. But 'the wages of sin is death.' Rom.6:23. Therefore to save Lucifer from sin was to save him from death, and to save him from death was to die for him. Consequently, the sacrifice of the Son of God to save Lucifer from sin, was in the invitation of God to him to return, as certainly as the sacrifice of Christ to save man from sin, was in the invitation to man to return from sin to God. For whether sin be in man or in cherub, it is sin; and without the offering of life there is 'no remission,'--and that the offering of the life of the Son of God. John 10:15-18;3:16." A.T. Jones, The Spirit of the Papacy, p.13.

That makes sense, doesn't it?

sky

*When I read the first question, an interesting reference came to mind. I will share it in my next post.

[skyblue888]

Often i am wondering why Jesus sacrificed himself. Is it only to save people from eternal destruction?Or was it also to demonstrate the true character of satan and to have the legitimate right to destroy satan and his angels?

truthseeker007

______________________________________________

Christ died as our Substitute and also to make sure the destruction of him who has the power of death. But there is more as the following statement will show. I will underline the parts that I found so enlightening:

"The death of Christ upon the cross made sure the destruction of him who has the power of death, who was the originator of sin. When Satan is destroyed, there will be none to tempt to evil; the atonement will never need to be repeated; and there will be no danger of another rebellion in the universe of God. That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, will prevent sin in heaven. The significance of the death of Christ will be seen by saints and angels. Fallen men could not have a home in the paradise of God without the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Shall we not then exalt the cross of Christ? The angels ascribe honor and glory to Christ, for even they are not secure except by looking to the sufferings of the Son of God. It is through the efficacy of the cross that the angels of heaven are guarded from apostasy. Without the cross they would be no more secure against evil than were the angels before the fall of Satan. Angelic perfection failed in heaven. Human perfection failed in Eden, the paradise of bliss. All who wish for secutiry in earth and heaven must look to the Lamb of God.

The plan of salvation, making manifest the justice and love of God, provides an eternal safeguard against defection in unfallen worlds, as well as among those who shall be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Our only hope is perfect trust in the blood of Him who can save to the uttermost all that come unto God by Him. The death of Christ on the cross of Calvary is our only hope in this world, and it will be our theme in the world to come. Oh, we do not comprehend the value of the atonement! If we did, we would talk more about it. The gift of God in His beloved Son was the expression of an incomprehensible love. It was the utmost that God could do to save the transgressor. Why should man not study the theme of redemption? It is the greatest subject that can engage the human mind. If men would contemplate the love of Christ, displayed in the cross, their faith would be strengthened to appropriate the merits of His shed blood, and they would be cleansed and saved from sin." Signs of the Times, Dec.30, 1889.

sky

[skyblue888]

Truthseeker, what think you of the last two posts?

Do they not answer your questions?

Where did u go?

sky :)