Freewill or Free Salvation?

[Woody]

Quote:

To believe as do Woody and Overaged do is to believe in Universalism; that ALL of mankind is saved in spite of anything they do to the contrary.

Wrong...wrong...wrong....never were those words uttered!

Are peoples minds having difficulty comprehending what free is? If one rejects the gift, as stated, it is still free! Do people continue to believe that they must 'jump through hoops' to receive the gift? What is not understood about free?????

If you accept the 'free' gift of salvation, it is in your hands.

If you ignore the 'free' gift of salvation, it not in your hands.

Can't be explained any simpler.

CoA .. I've gone round and round 'trying' to explain it to these people. Yet the accusations and labels continue. It would be like me saying that "to believe as Olger and John317 do is to believe in legalism." Now how long do you think a post like THAT would last? But, posts like this continue and people actually believe it.

It just not worth the breath CoA.

[Overaged]

I did not say whether or not I believed salvation is conditional. I did not say the idea that anyone or everyone will be saved. I did not say anything but what the OP starts out with. Is a truly converted person still in possession of free will?

Saying that salvation is FREE is not ceding to universalism or any derivative thereof. The scriptures say this. Not me. Not Woody. I am asking for people to help reconcile the texts I have been presenting with the idea of the OP kept in mind:

Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

What happens to our "free will" once this "justification" takes place? If it is "His will" that takes the place of our will; how then do we view our own "free will?" Is that even possible once we are "justified?" Why? Why not?

[CoAspen]

You do know I was agreeing with you???

[Overaged]

LOL, I think so...I was not sure...

[Musicman1228]

Karl said, "Pardon/justification/salvation are a gift from God, but they are not bestowed unconditionally."

This sentence is an oxymoron, and thus is semantically null. If pardon/justification/salvation are NOT bestowed UNCONDITIONALLY then that cannot be a 'free gift'.

You also left out the most important part of salvation, and that is 'sanctification'. Paul does this also.

[Guest]

Karl said, "Pardon/justification/salvation are a gift from God, but they are not bestowed unconditionally."

This sentence is an oxymoron, and thus is semantically null. If pardon/justification/salvation are NOT bestowed UNCONDITIONALLY then that cannot be a 'free gift'.

Sure it can. There's conditions on being made able to except it, but it's still a free gift. Otherwise you couldn't have it.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Karl said, "Pardon/justification/salvation are a gift from God, but they are not bestowed unconditionally."

This sentence is an oxymoron, and thus is semantically null. If pardon/justification/salvation are NOT bestowed UNCONDITIONALLY then that cannot be a 'free gift'.

Sure it can. There's conditions on being made able to except it, but it's still a free gift. Otherwise you couldn't have it.

Then why bother with going through the process of sanctification? What is the point if our being righteous does not matter, and all we have to do is 'borrow' the righteousness of Jesus Christ?

[karl]

When we repent and submit to Christ, we are transfused with Christ's life. It is given freely, but it is an ongoing spiritual battle to lose our lives in order to have His. He gives us multiple helps - His Word, His Spirit, His church in which to fellowship and grow. He gradually reveals to us the ways in which we are clinging to the old life and refusing His. The Spirit convicts us of our remaining sinfulness and of His righteousness waiting to cast it out. It is a growth process. Repentance must be ongoing. Transformation must be ongoing. Unless we say "No" somewhere along the line and refuse to continue with the transforming process, we shall go on to total sanctification. And, graciously, even if we stick at a certain point and refuse Him, He keeps working on us. Only if we remain doggedly determined to keep ungodly aspects of the old life does He finally say, "He is joined to his idols, leave him alone."

Praise God!

We know He is infinitely pure, and so when the naysayers come with their "Are you perfect?" (which they always do) we can truthfully say, "No, but He is taking me there. I'm traveling on the upward way."

[doug yowell]

Karl said, "Pardon/justification/salvation are a gift from God, but they are not bestowed unconditionally."

This sentence is an oxymoron, and thus is semantically null. If pardon/justification/salvation are NOT bestowed UNCONDITIONALLY then that cannot be a 'free gift'.

You also left out the most important part of salvation, and that is 'sanctification'. Paul does this also.

You failed to notice that Karl didn't write "free" gift,MM,so his statement was not an oxymoron. Even "free" gifts may come with bestowal conditions. There are many everyday demonstrations of that reality. If Karl gave me his winning lottery ticket I'd still have to meet conditions in order to receive the rewards. No one would think that the $71,000,000 he just gave me was anything other than free.

[Overaged]

But according to the OP; there is one question remaining: Is your will now free; after having received "free" salvation?

[Musicman1228]

When we repent and submit to Christ, we are transfused with Christ's life. It is given freely, but it is an ongoing spiritual battle to lose our lives in order to have His. He gives us multiple helps - His Word, His Spirit, His church in which to fellowship and grow. He gradually reveals to us the ways in which we are clinging to the old life and refusing His. The Spirit convicts us of our remaining sinfulness and of His righteousness waiting to cast it out. It is a growth process. Repentance must be ongoing. Transformation must be ongoing. Unless we say "No" somewhere along the line and refuse to continue with the transforming process, we shall go on to total sanctification. And, graciously, even if we stick at a certain point and refuse Him, He keeps working on us. Only if we remain doggedly determined to keep ungodly aspects of the old life does He finally say, "He is joined to his idols, leave him alone."

Praise God!

We know He is infinitely pure, and so when the naysayers come with their "Are you perfect?" (which they always do) we can truthfully say, "No, but He is taking me there. I'm traveling on the upward way."

What you describing is the process of sanctification, and that is what I have been talking about. You described it in a very wonderful way. Yet many here and elsewhere say that the result of what you have described is freedom IN sin, not FROM sin. By grace Jesus OFFERS us salvation; Jesus does not guarantee salvation-and that is where the conditions apply. Jesus said we must ABIDE in HIS words and THEN we truly become disciples of His. I take this to mean that it is literally His words, and not words translated or transcribed by or through anyone else. Other that this how do we know what the truth is?

[karl]

We will be completely sanctified when it is totally ingrained in us to submit to Christ in all things. Justification is God's miracle in us when we initially submit. Sanctification is God's miracle in us when we continue to submit.

"Righteousness within is testified to by righteousness without. He who is righteous within is not hard-hearted and unsympathetic, but day by day he grows into the image of Christ, going on from strength to strength. He who is being sanctified by the truth will be self-controlled, and will follow in the footsteps of Christ until grace is lost in glory. The righteousness by which we are justified is imputed; the righteousness by which we are sanctified is imparted. The first is our title to heaven, the second is our fitness for heaven."--Review and Herald, June 4, 1895.

[Musicman1228]

We will be completely sanctified when it is totally ingrained in us to submit to Christ in all things. Justification is God's miracle in us when we initially submit. Sanctification is God's miracle in us when we continue to submit.

"Righteousness within is testified to by righteousness without. He who is righteous within is not hard-hearted and unsympathetic, but day by day he grows into the image of Christ, going on from strength to strength. He who is being sanctified by the truth will be self-controlled, and will follow in the footsteps of Christ until grace is lost in glory. The righteousness by which we are justified is imputed; the righteousness by which we are sanctified is imparted. The first is our title to heaven, the second is our fitness for heaven."--Review and Herald, June 4, 1895.

Right. And keeping the 10 Commandments and holding to the testimony of Jesus (only) (Rev.12:17) is the test to see whether we are continuing to submit. Adam and Eve did not submit and were ejected from the Garden for their disobedience. How can we say that we are saved by grace through faith and that our works don't matter when we continue to demonstrate our lack of will to submit to the will of the Father, as expressed in the Law?

[karl]

How can we say that we are saved by grace through faith and that our works don't matter when we continue to demonstrate our lack of will to submit to the will of the Father, as expressed in the Law?

We can't. Unconditional pardon (justification) has never been and never will be.

[John317]

... How can we say that we are saved by grace through faith and that our works don't matter when we continue to demonstrate our lack of will to submit to the will of the Father, as expressed in the Law?

Paul doesn't teach this and neither does Ellen White.

True righteousness by faith is manifested in the keeping of the commandmens of God. This is the reason for the Investigative Judgment, which is showing who are worthy of receiving the gift of immortality. Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." Our lives tell whether we are true friends and disciples of Jesus.

[Guest]

I take this to mean that it is literally His words, and not words translated or transcribed by or through anyone else. Other that this how do we know what the truth is?

I think you just disqualified all the words of Jesus. Because all of His words that you have access to, came through someone else, and were also translated and transcribed. All of the things you say are no good if we are to know truth.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

I take this to mean that it is literally His words, and not words translated or transcribed by or through anyone else. Other that this how do we know what the truth is?

I think you just disqualified all the words of Jesus. Because all of His words that you have access to, came through someone else, and were also translated and transcribed. All of the things you say are no good if we are to know truth.

Richard, are you purposely being obtuse, or does it just come naturally to you?

The words of Jesus Christ came to us through His direct contact with His eyewitness disciples while He was on earth. Jesus went so far as to say that it is through His own disciples that HIS WORDS would be given to the rest of His disciples that would follow.

Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.   Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me. “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.  John 14:23-26.

Jesus later and again specifies to whom and by whom the witness of His testimony will be given.

“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning. John 15:26-27.

Now unless I miss my guess neither you nor I were with Jesus while He was here on earth, and we therefore have not been physically with Jesus from the beginning of His ministry, so it cannot possibly be us about which Jesus is referring.

As further proof that it matters to Jesus whom He has given His words Jesus verifies the 'chain of custody' of the evidence for truth that came to Him from the Father.

"For I have given them (His own disciples) the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me."  John 17:8.

And then Jesus carries this 'chain of custody' further by referring to whom it is that His disciples will tell the words they have been given by Jesus Christ Himself.

“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me."  John 17:20-21.

Jesus is very specific about who will carry His words to the others that will believe in those words through their testimony. The 'chain of custody' established by Jesus Christ Himself in order to assure that His words would be truthfully and faithfully remembered and written is clear to anyone that wants to see it: God the Father gave His Words of Truth to His only Son, Jesus Christ; who gave these Words to His own disciples, who He said would remember EVERYTHING that He said to them; then these eyewitness disciples would give His words (through their testimony) to others who would also become disciples of Jesus Christ through their (the original eyewitness disciples) testimony.

We also see this 'chain of custody of evidence' in Rev. 1:1-3. In this passage Jesus calls the 'others' who hear His words by the testimony of His own disciple John 'Bondservants'. In this case the 'chain of custody' of the Revelation is established by God the Father, who gave it to His Son, who gave it to His Angel (instead of Himself giving it directly to John), who gave it to John, who gave it to the Bondservants (of Jesus Christ) in the last days.

We can assume that there was a very important reason as to why Jesus would not personally give this Revelation to John by bypassing 'His Angel'. I will give you this reason later.

Nowhere in this 'chain of custody' does Jesus mention ANYONE other than His own disciples as being qualified to give testimony on His behalf. Jesus does not say that there would be others to whom He would give new information either by the Holy Spirit or by direct vision that would supplant or modify in any way what He told to His own eyewitness disciples.

I choose the understand and believe that Jesus meant what He said about this, and this makes it impossible for me to accept the testimony of anyone that claims authority from Jesus Christ that was not one of His own disciples.

You, of course, can and will believe anything your heart desires, regardless of their 'proof of service' to Jesus Christ.