SOP Prophecies Regarding End-times and the SDA Church

[John317]

The question here is, are the prophecies in the Spirit of prophecy regarding the SDA Church and the end-times like those of the prophecies concerning Ninevah?

In other words, are the SOP prophecies about our church and the events to take place just before the second coming conditional? Is it possible that we won't see those prophecies fulfilled because God will change His mind?

Are these prophecies-- such as the Sunday law, and the predictions that only a remnant of the Remnant will be saved-- non-changeable events that must take place before the 2nd coming of Christ?

Finally, did Ellen White write these prophecies primarily as a way of waking up SDAs or as "a pronouncement of doom on the church"? Or did she write them to show us the dangers we face heading into the end-times so that we won't be among the majority of the church, who are shaken out?

Feel free to quote the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy as part of your evidence and argument.

[Woody]

I say ... WHO CARES as long as you are right with God.

The prophecies usually just create doubt in people.

Personally ... I have no use for them.

[John317]

Then why did God give them? Didn't He give them with the purpose of having His people study them and know what they say?

[Woody]

he gave them for new believers and the weak or discouraged.

Prophecies prove God is God.

If you already believe that ... you can progress from milk to meat.

[Musicman1228]

“For the Lord GOD does nothing without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets. Amos 3:7.

John,

If, as you say, EGW had a choice as to how she presented the prophecies that God was supposed to have revealed to her then the was not revealing God's secrets but her own, and this would make her a false prophet. True prophets don't choose the prophecies they reveal or how or when they are to be revealed to those to whom the prophecies are given.

“For behold, I will command, and shake the house of Israel among all the nations as one shakes with a sieve, but no pebble (6872 tsrowr tser-ore'-small stone)shall fall to the earth. Amos 9:9.

That which is shaken OUT of the sieve is the good grain, which lands on the threshing room floor and is gathered up into the barn. That which remains IN the sieve are the rocks and pebbles which are thrown out. Most people believe that it will be evil people that will be shaken OUT of the SDA church (the sieve) at the end of time, when in reality (according to the prophecy) the righteous people will be shaken OUT and those that believe that they have all the truth and are unwilling to look further than what they already have (Leodicea) will remain IN the sieve (the church) and will be thrown out on the rubbish pile.

The stated goal of the SDA church and EGW is to keep people IN the church so they will 'go through' till the end. This understanding does not fit with this prophecy in Amos. Who is right? God or the SDA church and EGW? That is the choice.

[John317]

“For the Lord GOD does nothing without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets. Amos 3:7.

John,

If, as you say, EGW had a choice as to how she presented the prophecies that God was supposed to have revealed to her then the was not revealing God's secrets but her own, and this would make her a false prophet. True prophets don't choose the prophecies they reveal or how or when they are to be revealed to those to whom the prophecies are given.

Well, I didn't mean that she chose the prophecy, although prophets do (did) choose the words they use (under the guidance of the Holy Spirit).

God did not dictate the prophecies to the prophets, but He showed them visions and dreams and they wrote them out in their own language and in their own individual styles.

But prophets are able to choose when to write and when to give the prophecies. They are not robots.

So I am not sure what you are referring to. Would you like to explain further what I said that caused you to write as you did?

[John317]

That which is shaken OUT of the sieve is the good grain, which lands on the threshing room floor and is gathered up into the barn. That which remains IN the sieve are the rocks and pebbles which are thrown out. Most people believe that it will be evil people that will be shaken OUT of the SDA church (the sieve) at the end of time, when in reality (according to the prophecy) the righteous people will be shaken OUT and those that believe that they have all the truth and are unwilling to look further than what they already have (Leodicea) will remain IN the sieve (the church) and will be thrown out on the rubbish pile.

Well, isn't it time that we all get shaken out then? Let's get out now. What are you waiting for?

That doesn't even make sense, though, MM. The church are the called-out ones. But yet you are saying that those outside the church are really the ones who are called out. But if that is true, what are they called out of? God's people are called out of the wicked world and into what?

The church is the body of Christ. Is the body then going to become synonymous with those outside the body?

Is your theory here based on firmer reasoning in the Scriptures than your idea that Peter was inspired by "a tongue of fire" from Satan on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2: 3?

Or that Rev. 19: 7 should read, "their wife has made herself ready," instead of "His wife"?

[John317]

The stated goal of the SDA church and EGW is to keep people IN the church so they will 'go through' till the end. This understanding does not fit with this prophecy in Amos. Who is right? God or the SDA church and EGW? That is the choice.

What prophecy of Amos are you saying conflicts with the SDA church and EGW?

Let's look at the prophecy.

Being in the church is no guarantee that a person will go through till the end and be saved. Neither the church nor Ellen White teach such a thing. In fact, many SDAs will be lost.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

The stated goal of the SDA church and EGW is to keep people IN the church so they will 'go through' till the end. This understanding does not fit with this prophecy in Amos. Who is right? God or the SDA church and EGW? That is the choice.

What prophecy of Amos are you saying conflicts with the SDA church and EGW?

Let's look at the prophecy.

Being in the church is no guarantee that a person will go through till the end and be saved. Neither the church nor Ellen White teach such a thing. In fact, many SDAs will be lost.

You are right about that, John.

[John317]

I guess, though, there are some-- I know you aren't one of them-- who aren't aware that having one's name on the church books is no assurance of salvation. All having our name on the church books does is make us more responsible to God for our opportunities and blessings, and it means that we should have greater access to true knowledge.

But I am finding that we sometimes trick ourselves into thinking that it is good enough just to know truth or to believe it whereas from God's viewpoint, it's really all about doing, not just believing or saying we believe.

[Musicman1228]

I have done some research on how the farmers of ancient times processed grain for storage. This was common knowledge in the time of the prophets of Israel, but is much less so today, which is why there is much confusion as the meaning of Amos 9:9.

Today the entire process is accomplished in a Combine, which renders the grain fit for storage directly from the field. This was a very laborious process in ancient times.

When the grain was harvested by hand sickles (long curved blades on the end of a shaped handle) it was then bundled into sheaves, which were transported either by ox drawn carts or by strong-back labor to the threshing room (an enclosed barn with doors on either end) where it would be processed. Outside of the threshing room this material would be put through a thresher, a device with blades which would grind everything into coarse pieces (Isa. 41:15).

This coarse material, which included everything gathered from the field - the heads of the grain, the weeds (which could look like the real grain but is not), the hulls, chaff, pebbles, were then put in a large pile on the ground. When this was done the grain heads along with the non-usable material such as dirt, pebbles, stalks and hulls were put into a sieve or grate which was suspended by rope over the threshing room floor, and this material was both shaken and raked to separate the grain/chaff from the rocks, pebbles and left over stalks. The grain/chaff went through the sieve and onto the threshing room floor, and the rocks, pebbles and left over stalks remained in the sieve, which when full was taken out and dumped on the rubbish pile.

Finally, the doors of the threshing room were opened and large hand fans were used to blow the lighter hulls and chaff out of the threshing room, leaving the pure grain on the threshing room floor, where it would be either put in silos for bulk storage or put in burlap bags for transport and sale.

As you can see that which was the usable portion of the harvest was SHAKEN OUT of the separator or sieve. That which remained in the sieve was the unusable material which was thrown out.

Today, most people in the SDA church believe that the sieve is the church and those that are shaken out are those that have lost faith and don't believe what the church teaches is true. This understanding is a far cry from the true understanding of the purpose of a sieve, and of the shaking process that is soon to take place within the SDA church.

In this two stage process even some of those that make it through to the threshing room floor will be blown away by the fans of testing that is to come upon the SDA church before the Great Tribulation even begins.

IF my description of the threshing process is true (and it is) then most in the SDA church that believe as they have been taught by the church authorities (teachers, pastors, evangelists and EGW) will find themselves on the outside of the threshing room looking in at those that will be ready for service, the good grain of Jesus Christ.

[John317]

If you believe that the saints will be shaken out of the SDA church and that the wicked will stay inside the church, then what are you doing still in the church? Isn't it time to get out? Why wait? If your theory is correct, and Ellen White is wrong on the shaking, it seems to me people would want to be disfellowshipped; it would then be a badge that a former member could be proud of.

[wayfinder]

John317, What Musicman is describing is the purification process of the kingdom of heaven. The harvest are the sons of the kingdom and the sons of the evil one, and at harvest time everything is brought into the threshing floor. It is here where the sons of the kingdom are seperated from the sons of the evil one. What Musicman is saying is that those who are shaken out are not shaken out of the kingdom, but are separated from those who are not of God. The account of the ten bridesmaids is a good example of what I am describing. Other examples are the preparation of Gideon's army, and the separation of the Levites at the time of the golden calf incident, and the seperation of the 144,000 from the kingdom of heaven. They are not taken out of the kingdom, but are "set apart to God as priests of the living God. In fact the term holy means "set apart for God", the grain is "set apart for God" from the chaff and rubble.

The SDA church is the kingdom of heaven and both wise and foolish bridesmaids are sleeping together in it. The bondservants of the Son of God (144,000) will soon awaken them and the purification of the kingdom of heaven will occur and what is left on the threshing room floor is the kingdom of God.

[John317]

Nice to see you back here, Wayfinder, after not seeing you for a while. :-)

OK, I understand that and I believe we're in agreement on what you've said. But what I hear MM saying is that the righteous will be shaken out of the church whereas the ones who are not ready for Christ's return will stay inside the church. Are you and he then saying that it's important to stay in the church? Or does it matter?

[Musicman1228]

Nice to see you back here, Wayfinder, after not seeing you for a while. :-)

OK, I understand that and I believe we're in agreement on what you've said. But what I hear MM saying is that the righteous will be shaken out of the church whereas the ones who are not ready for Christ's return will stay inside the church. Are you and he then saying that it's important to stay in the church? Or does it matter?

The SDA church today IS the Kingdom of Heaven on earth. Examples of this in Scripture: Matt. 25:1-13, Rev. 2:19-25, Rev.3:1-21, Dan.2:44-45, Dan. 8:14, to name just a few. No other single denomination fits the parameters of these texts as does the SDA church. And just as the Pharisees were inside the Kingdom of Heaven at the time of Jesus Christ so to are there going to be both righteous and unrighteous inside the Kingdom of Heaven at the appointed time of the end.

The point of this example is that if you love the church more than you love the truth then rather than being on the Threshing Room Floor (prepared and ready for service) you will be put outside on the pile that is to be thrown away, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[John317]

I believe the Truth, and the truth as well, is really all that matters. God, who cannot tell a lie and hates all falsehood, won't have anything to do with lies.

[Musicman1228]

I believe the Truth, and the truth as well, is really all that matters. God, who cannot tell a lie and hates all falsehood, won't have anything to do with lies.

Amen. And learning to tell the difference between what is True from what only appears to be true (wolf in sheep's clothing stuff) is why we are all here on this forum.

[teresaq]

When the sunday law comes will there be any SDA organization? Won't our churches be confiscated at some point? As well as all our official buildings at some point?

[John317]

I believe you're right about the office and church buildings eventually being no longer the church's property. But the church is not the buildings. The organized church will not be broken up into independent atoms. See 2 SM 68, 69.

Of course not everyone who participates in the organized church will be saved-- in fact, only a fraction will be ultimately saved-- but "the church will be united in the Spirit and in the counsel of the Lord of hosts to the end of time" (2 SM 397). Even now, it's really only this unity that makes the Seventh-day Adventist church God's end-time, Remnant church.

[hch]

...The bondservants of the Son of God (144,000) will soon awaken them and the purification of the kingdom of heaven will occur and what is left on the threshing room floor is the kingdom of God.

If they do not awakened soon, it may be too late.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

...The bondservants of the Son of God (144,000) will soon awaken them and the purification of the kingdom of heaven will occur and what is left on the threshing room floor is the kingdom of God.

If they do not awakened soon, it may be too late.

You are correct, hch, but it is happening even now. 144,000 out of over 15 million SDA members world wide is a very small number, which will give them just a little power, but that power will be enough.

“‘I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name.  Rev. 3:8.

[John317]

144,000 out of over 15 million SDA members world wide is a very small number, which will give them just a little power, but that power will be enough.

That is if the 144,000 is a literal number but there is good reason to believe it is not. Jehovah's Witnesses believe it is a literal number, and consequently almost no one takes part in their memorial meals. Sometimes only one or two people might take the cup & the bread. Sometimes nobody does. It was very strange to watch the first time.

It is more likely that the number-- like the names in Rev. 7: 5-8--- is symbolic. And in Rev. 14, since the Father's name on the forehead is symbolic, the number is most likely also symbolic.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

144,000 out of over 15 million SDA members world wide is a very small number, which will give them just a little power, but that power will be enough.

That is if the 144,000 is a literal number but there is good reason to believe it is not. Jehovah's Witnesses believe it is a literal number, and consequently almost no one takes part in their memorial meals. Sometimes only one or two people might take the cup & the bread. Sometimes nobody does. It was very strange to watch the first time.

It is more likely that the number-- like the names in Rev. 7: 5-8--- is symbolic. And in Rev. 14, since the Father's name on the forehead is symbolic, the number is most likely also symbolic.

All numbers used in prophecy are literal, even though they have symbolic meaning. How many gates are there into the New Jerusalem? 12. Is that a 'symbolic' number? There were 12 disciples of Jesus Christ. Is that number symbolic? 2300 evenings and morning prophecy in Dan. 8:14. Is 2300 a symbolic number?

Making numbers used in prophecy only symbolic is a convenient way of being able to make them mean anything you want. It is also a convenient means of manipulating the numbers to generate results that prove individual pet theories. If you use the numbers literally then you must figure out what those literal numbers mean in context. The day/year principle applies only to those years that are clearly used on the restoration calendar. Any number not used on that calendar are counted as literal after that calendar is ended.

If you take 'days' to mean literal days, and 'years' to mean literal years it is pretty easy to see which of these numbers would be able to be used as day years. For example the 1335 days in Dan. 12:12 must be literal days not day years because the person that is 'blessed' is blessed at the beginning of the 1335 days. No human being who would be blessed at the beginning of this time period could possibly be alive at the end of the time period is those days were actually years.

Therefore, there is no reason to divide days into years, or months into days, or days into hours. It is much more reasonable to leave the time periods as they are and try to figure out what they mean under those conditions.

Again, I call your attention to:

Seven Rule for Prophetic Interpretation

[Johnnboy]

The question here is, are the prophecies in the Spirit of prophecy regarding the SDA Church and the end-times like those of the prophecies concerning Ninevah?

In other words, are the SOP prophecies about our church and the events to take place just before the second coming conditional? Is it possible that we won't see those prophecies fulfilled because God will change His mind?

Are these prophecies-- such as the Sunday law, and the predictions that only a remnant of the Remnant will be saved-- non-changeable events that must take place before the 2nd coming of Christ?

Finally, did Ellen White write these prophecies primarily as a way of waking up SDAs or as "a pronouncement of doom on the church"? Or did she write them to show us the dangers we face heading into the end-times so that we won't be among the majority of the church, who are shaken out?

Feel free to quote the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy as part of your evidence and argument.

Please read the following statements prayerfully. They are of tremendous import for the church and for each individual.

EXAMPLES OF SPIRIT OF PROPHECY STATEMENTS THAT ARE CONDITIONAL PROPHECIES.

“Neglect to repent and obey His word will bring as serious consequences upon God's people today as did the same sin upon ancient Israel. There is a limit beyond which He will no longer delay His judgments.” 4T 166, 167

“Jerusalem is a representation of what the church will be if it refuses to walk in the light that God has given.” 8T 67

“For nearly forty years after the doom of Jerusalem had been pronounced by Christ Himself, the Lord delayed His judgments upon the city and the nation. Wonderful was the long-suffering of God toward the rejectors of His gospel and the murderers of His Son. The parable of the unfruitful tree represented God's dealings with the Jewish nation. The command had gone forth, "Cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?" (Luke 13:7) but divine mercy had spared it yet a little longer.” GC 27

“The church is like the unproductive tree which, receiving the dew and rain and sunshine, should have produced an abundance of fruit, but on which the divine search discovers nothing but leaves. Solemn thought for our churches! solemn, indeed, for every individual!” RH December 23, 1890

EXAMPLES OF PROPHECIES FROM THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY THAT ARE NOT CONDITIONAL, BUT THEY ARE STATEMENTS OF FACT.

“When the Saviour saw in the Jewish people a nation divorced from God, He saw also a professed Christian Church united to the world and the papacy.” RH October 8, 1901

“Of those who boast of their light and yet fail to walk in it Christ says, "But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment than for you. And thou, Capernaum [seventh-day Adventists, who have had great light], which art exalted unto heaven [in point of privilege], shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works which have been done in thee had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day."--RH Aug. 1, 1893. [THE BRACKETED COMMENTS ARE BY ELLEN WHITE.]

“At the time when the danger and depression of the church are greatest, the little company who are standing in the light will be sighing and crying for the abominations that are done in the land. But more especially will their prayers arise in behalf of the church because its members are doing after the manner of the world.” 5T 209.

“Here we see that the church--the Lord's sanctuary--was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God. The ancient men, those to whom God had given great light and who had stood as guardians of the spiritual interests of the people, had betrayed their trust. They had taken the position that we need not look for miracles and the marked manifestation of God's power as in former days. Times have changed. These words strengthen their unbelief, and they say: The Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment. Thus "Peace and safety" is the cry from men who will never again lift up their voice like a trumpet to show God's people their transgressions and the house of Jacob their sins. These dumb dogs that would not bark are the ones who feel the just vengeance of an offended God. Men, maidens, and little children all perish together.” 5T 211

When Jeremiah, the prophet, proclaimed the Word of the Lord to God's ancient people, the leadership thought by burning his words and throwing the prophet into the slime pit, they could prevent the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Lord. But they were only deceiving themselves and the people, they were not fooling God. They brought upon themselves and God's people horrible calamities.

This is a lesson for those who trust the leadership in the Church corporation above the words of God's messengers today.

[John317]

..All numbers used in prophecy are literal, even though they have symbolic meaning. How many gates are there into the New Jerusalem? 12. Is that a 'symbolic' number? There were 12 disciples of Jesus Christ. Is that number symbolic? 2300 evenings and morning prophecy in Dan. 8:14. Is 2300 a symbolic number?

....If you take 'days' to mean literal days, and 'years' to mean literal years it is pretty easy to see which of these numbers would be able to be used as day years. For example the 1335 days in Dan. 12:12 must be literal days not day years because the person that is 'blessed' is blessed at the beginning of the 1335 days. No human being who would be blessed at the beginning of this time period could possibly be alive at the end of the time period is those days were actually years.

Therefore, there is no reason to divide days into years, or months into days, or days into hours. It is much more reasonable to leave the time periods as they are and try to figure out what they mean under those conditions.

How, then, do you make sense of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 and of the 2300 days of Daniel 8: 14, the 1, 260 days, the 3 1/2 years, and the "time, times, and half a time" of Daniel 7: 25?