Get OUT of the cities

[abelisle]

Maybe you can't understand this but I'm staying behind to help those I can help. I'm not running.

Like those 50 Japanese workers who stayed behind to put out the reactor fires knowing full well that would be their death warrant.

I'll let the Bible be my guide and nowhere does it say one must leave the cities. Even Nineveh repented and was saved.

BTW, that's a noble gesture on your part offering refuge in your home. May God bless you.

Alex

[Woody]

I see little need to leave the mission field.

The work still needs to be done.

This is another one of those 'but' threads.

She said this ...

BUT she also said this ....

THE BIBLE SAYS THIS.

[ClubV12]

Some SHOULD stay, especially in a time of devastation. Some should attempt to get IN the city during these events in order to help! Some need to get their families out while there is still time, for their spiritual as well as physical needs. ALL should have a plan, a place of refuge.

We all have a roll to play. My calling is to prepare a place for those who may need refuge, now that I am out of the city. I've done my city work, I've seen the degradation that exists there, it is a dangerous place on so many levels. Your calling might be to go in, or stay at the Nuclear plant, do what God directs.

The voice of duty is the voice of God.

As we draw nearer the end, there will be no more work to do in the cities, or the country, it will be a time to flee. Pray that time does not come on the Sabbath day or in the winter.

I do what I am doing because I take very seriously the counsel. It is my "duty" to prepare, myself and make preparation for others.

[Woody]

Quote:

Pray that time does not come on the Sabbath day or in the winter.

Never understood the meaning of this. Nor it's purpose.

Our prophet says we will be traveling on the Sabbath ... as it takes 7 days. So, I would love to see Jesus come on the Sabbath. How cool.

[ClubV12]

The Japan quake happened on Friday. Doubly sad for SDA's who would have been very busy over the Sabbath, instead of enjoying and resting on the Sabbath.

Good news, at least it happened during day light hours, giving them some precious time to get a plan together, before it got dark, real dark, with the power outages. And cold, must have been very miserable that Sabbath.

[Sonny]

"The time is near when the large cities will be visited by the judgments of God."

That is unequivocal.

What are "the judgments of God?"

My wrath shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'

Clearly God is not angry. It seems God is angry because of the evils that come upon us when bad things happen. Similarly is seems like God was angry with Christ: Surely he [Christ] took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted.

In reality God abandoned Christ, but from the human perspective it looked like God afflicted Christ.

So God's judgments come when God is unwelcome and rejected. God's removal of Himself brings evil, but He is not the author of destruction and evil.

[aldona]

Some SHOULD stay, especially in a time of devastation. Some should attempt to get IN the city during these events in order to help! Some need to get their families out while there is still time, for their spiritual as well as physical needs. ALL should have a plan, a place of refuge.

We all have a roll to play. My calling is to prepare a place for those who may need refuge, now that I am out of the city. I've done my city work, I've seen the degradation that exists there, it is a dangerous place on so many levels. Your calling might be to go in, or stay at the Nuclear plant, do what God directs.

The voice of duty is the voice of God.

As we draw nearer the end, there will be no more work to do in the cities, or the country, it will be a time to flee. Pray that time does not come on the Sabbath day or in the winter.

I do what I am doing because I take very seriously the counsel. It is my "duty" to prepare, myself and make preparation for others.

I believe that everyone should be where God has placed them when the end time comes. That may be in the city, or in the country. Everyone fleeing to the country to escape the disasters sounds too much like trying to avoid God's wrath by our own efforts, instead of doing the work He has assigned us to do and trusting Him to look after us wherever that may be.

The countryside is not some kind of mythical Utopia where all is sweetness and light and everybody raises organic vegetables by hand while singing hymns and communing with unspoilt Nature. It may have been so in EGW's day, but today, on just about any measurable statistic you care to mention, the country comes off worse.

- More unemployment

- More drug and alcohol use

- Fewer educational opportunities

- More mental illness, depression and suicide

- More physical disease of almost every kind, including cancers, heart disease and stroke

- Shorter life expectancy

(and having worked in both the city and the country, and studied a bit about rural population health, I can verify that this is true).

You may have good and valid reasons why God is calling you to live in the country (probably to improve the quality of life of your neighbors there!) but don't kid yourself that it is to escape to some kind of sin-free paradise.

AJ

[CoAspen]

[Woody]

[inkie]

"I saw...scenes that would soon take place in Chicago and other large cities...As wickedness increased, and the protecting power of God was withdrawn, there were destructive winds and tempests, buildings were destroyed by fire and shaken down by earthquakes." The Chicago Work, March 20, 1906

"Some time after this, I was shown that the vision of the buildings in Chicago and the draft upon the means of our people to erect them and their destruction, was an object lesson for our people, warning them not to invest largely of their means in property in Chicago or any other city, unless the providence of God should positively open the way and plainly point out duty to build or buy, as necessary, in giving the note of warnihg. A similar caution was given in regard to building in Los Angeles. Repeatedly I have been instructed that we must not invest means in the erection of expensive buildings in cities..." ibid

"God's judgemens are in the land. Whole cities and villages will be blotted out. Boston is to be warned." Letter 150, 1906 p. 4 (To C. C. Nicolas and wife, May 15, 1906.)

"The city of San Francisco is a sample of what the whole world is becoming. The wicked bribery, the misappropriation of means, the fraudulent transactions among men who have power to release the guilty and condemn the innocent--all this iniquity is filling other large cities of the earth, and is making the world as it was in the days that were before the flood." Letter 230, 1907, pp 2,3. (To J. E. White and wife, July 22, 1907.)

"The Lord gives warnings to the inhabitants of the earth, as in the Chicago fire, and the fires in Melbourne, London, and the city of New York. When God's restraining hand is removed, the destroyer begins his work. Then in our cities the greatest calamities will come." Manuscript 127, 1897, pp 6-9 (Untitled Manuscript, Nov 22, 1897.)

[Woody]

so do you have anything to comment on those quotes? After all this is a discussion forum. :)

[inkie]

The word of God through his servant Ellen White is there to help us stay safe in Him. It was not given to us to confine us or make our lives miserable, but to be a blessing to us.

Noah and his family obeyed God when it was time to go to the ark of safety. It kept them safe. No one was forced to go in. Everyone had free will to choose, just as we do today.

[ClubV12]

- More unemployment

- More drug and alcohol use

- Fewer educational opportunities

- More mental illness, depression and suicide

- More physical disease of almost every kind, including cancers, heart disease and stroke

- Shorter life expectancy

The above list could easily apply to any big city poor district or area. The ghetto's don't offer anything over the country. Oh wait, I get it, your talking about the suburbs? The nice row houses and clean streets? The parks? Oh I see, THAT city!! Hmmm, sounds a lot like another city I've read about... Sodom.

Consider Abraham and Lot. Lot lost everything and very nearly his life by moving to the big city. Sodom was in fact a wonderful place! The living was easy. It was a clean modern town of wealth and properity. The well to do inhabitants had plenty of time to make merry, pursue art, build really nice monuments and structures. It was an awesome city. But, like all cities, it certainly had a dark seemy underside. It was not safe to stay in the square at night, there were gangs that would threaten your life. But the overall beauty of the place out weighed those factors, for Lot and his family.

Abraham chose the country, not nearly as nice as Sodom. You had to work for a living, unemployment was certainly higher. It was a great distance to get into town. But, you could sleep unmolested in the square. You could maintain a close connection with the living God without the constant barrage of "idols" to be found in the city.

So, WAS the country really any different in Ellen Whites time and now? No, it wasn't. Life was MUCH easier in San Fran! A wealthy city where a guy could get a good education, make something of himself, they even had electricity! And cars! The living was easy in San Fran, right up until the time it was visited by God. Not unlike Sodom.

Just a hunch, but I think you've totally missed the concept of Ellen Whites counsel and relegated it to the dust bin of history. It applied THEN and it applies even more today. The counsel is clear, plain and unmistakable now as it was in LOT's time, as it was in Ellen Whites time and so it remains in our time. GET OUT OF THE CITIES, or, be partakers of her plague (on so many levels).

Come to think of it, Tokyo sounds a lot like Sodom. Real nice place, clean, prosperous, lots of idol time. Did I mention the vice? Just a thought, having visited Tokyo and my recollections of the place.

[SivartM]

Wait, suburbs have gangs consisting of all the males in the town who go around raping visitors at night? And nothing about cities has changed at all since the 19th century? And there is no place to live in them except suburbs or ghettos?

Come to think of it, Tokyo sounds a lot like Sodom. Real nice place, clean, prosperous, lots of idol time. Did I mention the vice? Just a thought, having visited Tokyo and my recollections of the place.

Goodness, where did you go in Tokyo?

[ClubV12]

The counsel is plain, it's in common language for all to understand. It is as relevant today as it was in her time. Those looking for an excuse to avoid God's clear warnings will find plenty of "good" reasons to do so.

The suburbs are becoming increasingly much like the inner city when it comes to crime. They are no longer the nice safe place they were once reported to be. You can find, in those nice suburbs, all the vice and sin you can find in the city.

So how far out do you move? And with the price of gas so high, don't you feel the need to get closer to the city? You know, for employment, for health care, for that gallon of ice cream, the mall, all that good stuff? Very tempting to say the least.

The Lord will open a way for those who are serious about following his counsel. He will also allow you to find plenty of "good" reasons to stay in the city. Choose wisely.

NOW is the time to get out, to the smaller cities at first, to the country in time, and in time, to flee for your life from the coming disasters and the laws of man opposed to the laws of God.

I traveled all over Japan, but was particulary impressed with Tokyo. Nice place, wonderful people, LOTS of vice and sin, much like any big city really.

[Woody]

Quote:

The counsel is plain, it's in common language for all to understand.

Nothing written over 100 years ago is 'plain'. It is always 'plain' in ones' own eyes ... but that is far from 'plain' as you will see many different interpretations of the 'plain'. lol

[ClubV12]

So, your saying the cities are OK now, but there weren't a 100 years ago?

That there is less sin and vice now, than back then? That they are safer now, than a 100 years ago? That corruption on Wall St. is better these days than in the past? That this "modern age" is all better now and it's OK to raise your family in the middle of Detroit, or New York or Chicago? That LA is safer than ever, no worries?

That because everything is all better now that God wouldn't allow any more disasters to impact the big cities?

...whew, Ooo Kk then, carry on...

[LifeHiscost]

Seems to me I remember the counsel to leave the cities while there was still time, and soon it would be impossible to get out.

At one time I was offered work in the "big city" that would have substantially increased my income. Having a large family I was responsible for but giving heed to that counsel, I hesitated to give a positive decision, giving God time enough to work out our salvation. The offer was withdrawn and as I look back on the providence, although it has been more of a struggle, where we eventually ended up could not have been more perfectly planned.

God blesses!

[Woody]

Quote:

carry on...

that's the best advice I've seen from you yet. :)

[LifeHiscost]

[Gerr]

A voice crying in the wilderness. Good luck, friend.

[Sonny]

When Adam sinned and God came to visit him, what did he say to God when God asked why did you sin? He said, “This woman, whom You gave....” So upon whom was he putting the blame? On God. Today you will hear it all the time: “If God is love why is He allowing all the sicknesses and problems? If God is love, why is He allowing a drought in America?” These are the kind of questions that have to be solved if the great controversy is to come to an end.

So what does God do? God actually assumes the blame! He assumes the blame until the Day of Atonement. There is a text where God is speaking. He says, “I have created evil.” You will find many texts in the Bible where God assumes the blame for many things. For instance God said, “I have hardened Pharaoh’s heart.” These texts cause a lot of problems to many Christians. You wonder why those texts are there. Well, it’s because God assumes the blame until the Day of Atonement. Because He’s sovereign and He allows things to happen, He has to assume the blame. Does He assume the blame for a good reason? Yes. But we will not know it until the judgment.

[Sonny]

A voice crying in the wilderness. Good luck, friend.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love [agape]; but perfect love [God's agape for us] casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love!

If you teach fear you are unloving. You aren't experiencing agape in your life.

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love [agape] of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter." 37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Sonny]

What is agape? Agape, especially in its noun form, which generally meant loving others without a selfish motive.

The New Testament writers could distinguish God’s love from human love by the use of different words and this they did. The most common word used to describe human love is phileo. God’s love, on the other hand, is defined by all the New Testament writers as agape.

In the New Testament agape was given a very special meaning derived from God’s revelation in the holy history of Christ, and which was supremely demonstrated on the cross [Romans 5:6-10]. It completely contradicts phileo in at least three ways:

Human love (phileo) is conditional and therefore reciprocal. It needs arousing and depends on outward beauty or goodness.

In contrast, God’s love (agape) is unconditional and therefore spontaneous, uncaused, and independent of our importance or status in life. Agape loves both the just and the unjust. It does not produce favoritism.

Human love (phileo) is changeable. This means it is a love that fluctuates and is unreliable. This is the only kind of love that human beings can generate in and of themselves. (Incidentally, the high divorce rate in the United States is primarily due to this fluctuating, unreliable human love, devoid of agape).

In complete contrast, God’s love (agape) is changeless. It is this fact that prompted Him to declare to the unfaithful Jews, “I have loved thee with an everlasting love” [Jeremiah 31:3]. According to Paul’s description of God’s love, “agape never fails” [1 Corinthians 13:8]. This was clearly demonstrated on the cross when “having loved His own which were in the world, he loved (agapao) them unto the end” [John 13:1].

When we Christians realize God’s unchanging love for us and are “rooted and grounded in agape” [Ephesians 3:17], we will be able to say with the great apostle Paul: “Who shall separate us from the love [agape] of Christ? ... For I am persuaded, that neither death nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, not things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love [agape] of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord” [Romans 8:35-39].

Human love, at its very best is self-seeking. We are by nature egocentric and therefore everything we do and think, in and of ourselves, is polluted with self-love or selfishness.

Hence man’s love is always trying to ascend, whether it be socially, politically, academically, materially, economically, or even religiously; we are all slaves to our “own way” [isaiah 53:6; Philippians 2:21]. We are all shaped in “iniquity" (bent to self). Consequently all of us, without exception, are coming short of God’s glory or agape love [Romans 3:23].

But God’s love (agape) is the very opposite. It is self-giving. It was because of this that Christ did not cling to His equality with the Father, but emptied Himself and became God’s slave, obedient unto death, even the death of the cross [Philippians 2:6-8]. All His earthly life, Christ demonstrated God’s agape [John 17:4, first part.] This is “the glory as of the only begotten of the Father” which the disciples beheld [John 1:14].

There is no self-love in God’s love [1 Corinthians 13:5], and it is this love produced in the lives of Christians through the indwelling Spirit [Romans 5:5; Galatians 5:22] that is the most powerful witness of the transforming power of the gospel [John 13:34-35].

The supreme manifestation of God’s self-giving love was demonstrated on the cross when Christ tasted the second death for all mankind [Hebrews 2:9]. This second death is obvious since believers who are justified in Christ still have to die the first or sleep death but will be exempted from the second death [Revelation 20:6]. The second death is the cessation of life or saying goodbye to life forever. On the cross Christ was submitting to this death. He was willing to be deprived of life forever (not just three days) that we may live in His place. It was this self-emptying love that transformed His disciples who before the cross were dominated by self-interest [Luke 22:24]. Likewise, when we get a glimpse of this self-sacrificing love of Christ shining from the cross of Calvary, we too will be transformed [2 Corinthians 5:14-15].

When we are “rooted and grounded” in this agape love we will cast out all fear and will be able to serve our God with an unselfish motive [1 John 4:7, 12, 16-18].

[ClubV12]

A "warning" by default brings with it an "or else" clause. Other wise, it would not be a warning. No warning, no love. When God finally terminates sin, by eternal destruction of all sinner's, it is love. When Mother gave you a time-out for acting up, it was love. Love and disicpline are inseparable. Without enforcement of the law, the law has no meaning.

If the warning causes fear, it is evident your connection to Christ is not as strong as it needs to be. Paul was on a ship that was going to sink, the sailors and other occupants of the ship feared for their lives. But Paul had no such concerns, he had no fear. He assured them that not a single life would be lost on that ship. But that was a CONDITIONAL promise. When some of the sailors tried to launch the only life boat, the remaining sailors had a duty to stop them, lest lives WOULD be lost.

We too have a duty to warn others, if it causes fear, that is not our concern. We still have a job to do, a warning to give. So that the sailors of this life might find a refuge from the coming storm.