Moderators Bravus Posted March 21, 2011 Moderators Posted March 21, 2011 In the 'War' thread, John317 wrote: Quote: People have to decide whether to accept their feelings & opinions about this or whether they are going to trust the Bible and Ellen White. If the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy are untrustworthy on something so central in Scriptrue as this, perhaps it is wrong on many other things. Do you trust the Bible and Ellen White when it comes to telling us that Christ is both fully man and fully God? Or that homosexuality is a sin? Or that the last-day church will have in it the manifestation of the Spirit of prophecy? My point is that once we start jettisoning ideas and teachings that we don't like for whatever reason, it becomes a matter of accepting what we like and rejecting everything else that we might find personally objectionable. At that point, people are no longer placing their faith in the word of God or even in God Himself but in their own opinions. I want to divide out the issues of the Bible vs the Spirit of Prophecy, just for argumentative convenience. I'm going to address the Bible issue on my blog, and will start a thread in relation to that here as well, but my blog goes to a very wide audience including many non-SDAs, and mixing in Ellen White would muddy the water. OK, here's my thesis statement: I believe that not all of Ellen White('s writings) is the Spirit of Prophecy, and not all of the Spirit of Prophecy is Ellen White('s writings) That is, I believe some of Ellen White's work constitutes or reveals the Spirit of Prophecy. But when, for example, she writes that God does not love naughty children, that's Ellen White writing but not the Spirit of Prophecy. I also believe the Spirit of Prophecy encompasses more than Ellen White's writings. The spiritual gift of prophecy is right there alongside the gifts of preaching and teaching, and I don't believe those ended a century ago. God may well have more prophetic gifts on hand for us. Quote Truth is important
Members phkrause Posted March 21, 2011 Members Posted March 21, 2011 Some interesting thoughts Bravus. As far as her 5 set "conflict series", that would be the Great Controversy, Desire of Ages, The Acts of the Apostles, Prophets and Kings, and Patriarchs and Prophets, those I believe are definitely inspired by God. There are others obviously, but I haven't read all of her books. Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Members abelisle Posted March 21, 2011 Members Posted March 21, 2011 I agree with you Bravus. Quote We are our worst enemy - sad but true. http://abelisle.blogspot.com
Dr. Shane Posted March 21, 2011 Posted March 21, 2011 I don't believe all of Ellen White's writings were inspired. I see her purpose as to point us back to the Bible. I do believe she was influenced a lot by the culture of her day and her peers - much as we are today. God was not trying to use her to give as a new revelation but rather to direct us back to the Bible. The truth I believe she did provide to us that is not a major Biblical theme is that of the heavenly sanctuary and the health message. Those are themes for our time so it is only understandable that the Biblical authors would not have stressed them and that God would have used Ellen White to deliver them to us. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity
shelly Posted March 21, 2011 Posted March 21, 2011 Another SDA who doesn't believe that all of EGW writings were inspired and believe her culture and personal opinions are intermingled with what she recieved from God. I also believe that the SOP is alive and well today in God's people and is not a gift that is unique to EGW. Quote
ClubV12 Posted March 21, 2011 Posted March 21, 2011 William Miller, and many other people around the world as well, correctly calculated the end of the 2,300 year prophecy. But none of them knew exactly what it meant, other the end of a biblical and mathmetical time frame. That revelation, understanding the 2300 years, brought through Ellen White, is perhaps the most fundamental and important factor of all her work. To read "all" of her writings would be a bit pointless in my opinion, they are SO vast. To read them is one thing, to understand them is all together different. It's better to take a subject and study it using the bible and EGW writings as a "study guide". Which is essentially what the "compilation" books accredited to her attempt to do. The Conflict Series do stand alone though, a magnificant work, that really breathes life and brings clarity to the bible. If I could only have two I'd take: Great Controversy (#1) and the Desire of Ages. I wonder how much more Paul and other bible authors actually wrote, of which we only see a portion (through a glass, darkly, ha ha). I imagine if we had ALL of a bible authors works we would also see a personal opinion here and there. But there is no doubt EGW was the voice of God for our time, a much as Paul was to the people of his time. Quote
CoAspen Posted March 21, 2011 Posted March 21, 2011 Quote: I believe that not all of Ellen White('s writings) is the Spirit of Prophecy, and not all of the Spirit of Prophecy is Ellen White('s writings) That is, I believe some of Ellen White's work constitutes or reveals the Spirit of Prophecy. But when, for example, she writes that God does not love naughty children, that's Ellen White writing but not the Spirit of Prophecy. I also believe the Spirit of Prophecy encompasses more than Ellen White's writings. The spiritual gift of prophecy is right there alongside the gifts of preaching and teaching, and I don't believe those ended a century ago. God may well have more prophetic gifts on hand for us. Can't add anything, it sums up my position as well. Quote
skyblue888 Posted March 21, 2011 Posted March 21, 2011 Not a very safe position. I know Ellen White enough (through her writings) to know that she could never have said anything like "God does not love naughty children". On the contrary she stated the very opposite which is that God and His holy angels pay special attention to children who have difficult traits of character. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted March 21, 2011 Posted March 21, 2011 I haven't seen a reference as to where she wrote, "God doesn't love naughty children". But IF she wrote it, my FIRST impression is "it's true", it's not "just" her personal opinion, it's a fact. Like many "facts" we find in the bible and can't wrap our head around due to our limited understanding and dull intellect. Context and timing are everything. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted March 21, 2011 Moderators Posted March 21, 2011 OK, here's my thesis statement: I believe that not all of Ellen White('s writings) is the Spirit of Prophecy, and not all of the Spirit of Prophecy is Ellen White('s writings) That is, I believe some of Ellen White's work constitutes or reveals the Spirit of Prophecy. But when, for example, she writes that God does not love naughty children, that's Ellen White writing but not the Spirit of Prophecy. I don't know of anyone in the SDA church who believes that the letters Ellen White wrote sometimes to her children and to her husband expressing private, common things were inspired by God. Ellen White addresses this question, and her statements about it have been posted several times on the Adventist Forum. However, that is totally different from the statements she wrote under the inspiration of God for the church, such as in the Testimonies and in her writings directed to the church or to individuals about what God had revealed to her. There's a very clear differnce between these two kinds of messages and communications. Originally Posted By: Bravus I also believe the Spirit of Prophecy encompasses more than Ellen White's writings. The spiritual gift of prophecy is right there alongside the gifts of preaching and teaching, and I don't believe those ended a century ago. God may well have more prophetic gifts on hand for us. We've been through this many times before. People can study the subject in many books, including the Sabbath School Lesson quarterlies. In those publications, they will see it plainly stated time and again that the Spirti of prophecy is the Holy Spirit who inspires the prophets of God. So of course the Spirit of prophecy encompasses more than the Ellen White writings. That is a given. But the point is that the Spirit of prophecy includes the writings of Ellen White-- that is, the Testimonies, etc. Ellen White herself uses the expression "the Spirit of prophecy" to refer to her own writings for the church. In its lists of the gifts of the Spirit, the NT consistently lists the gift of prophecy immediately after the gift of apostleship: See Ephes. 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 1 Cor. 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted March 21, 2011 Moderators Posted March 21, 2011 I haven't seen a reference as to where she wrote, "God doesn't love naughty children". That's because it was a private letter to her boys who had been giving lots of trouble to the people taking care of them while Ellen and James were traveling from church to church. She was a young mother who had tried everything she could think of to help her young boys do what they should do, yet they continued to disobey and be "naughtey," so she wrote a letter to them that God is aware of what we do and say, and she made the remark that God does not love naughty children. Ellen White never claimed that everything she ever said or wrote in her whole lifetime is inspired by God. In fact, she specifically denied it. See 1 SM 25-45. There's a big difference between what she wrote for the church and what she wrote privately as a mother struggling to know what to tell her children when they were being "naughty." But Ellen White would go on from that point to understand better how to deal with "naughty children," as shown in her later writings to her boys as well as to her husband. Life was not always easy being a prophet of God, and you can be sure that it wasn't always easy, either, being the husband of a wife who could turn over in bed and tell you what God thought of your errors and how God wanted you to straighten up your life. It shouldn't surprise anyone that during the 1870s, Ellen and James White lived apart at times by mutual consent. They still loved each other dearly, and exchanged letters,but as very strong willed individuals, they both felt they needed some independence from the other. :-) Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Bravus Posted March 21, 2011 Author Moderators Posted March 21, 2011 Skyblue, she did write it, it's been quoted here recently. ClubV12, it contradicts everything the Bible says about the nature of God. John317, I could find examples from those writings too, but what's the point? No-ones mind is going to be changed. Quote Truth is important
shelly Posted March 21, 2011 Posted March 21, 2011 I have found that EGW's observations on caffeine are more based on the understanding of her day rather than biblical principles. It is definately more opinion than inspiration. I did a paper years ago in high school inspired by the SDA understanding of caffeine only to find that alot of her statements were just wrong. That was just the start of me questioning whether she correctly interpreted what she was given. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted March 21, 2011 Moderators Posted March 21, 2011 John317, I could find examples from those writings too, but what's the point? No-ones mind is going to be changed. I've changed my mind many times. Are you saying that if there is the least little mistake or error in the writings of Ellen White, it means that we are free to choose what to accept and what to reject throughout her writings, depending upon our private opinions? Do you apply this same principle to the Bible? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted March 21, 2011 Moderators Posted March 21, 2011 That was just the start of me questioning whether she correctly interpreted what she was given. But at the same time, science changes its theories and statements quite often. How did your questioning [or doubting] whether Ellen White's writings were right regarding caffeine influence your thinking with respect to other topics she wrote about? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
ClubV12 Posted March 21, 2011 Posted March 21, 2011 "ClubV12, it contradicts everything the Bible says about the nature of God." If you want to attack and disparage Ellen White, Bravus, take a number and have a seat, it's a very long and "twisted" line (of reasoning). Understanding the context of the statement, I don't have a problem with it. I won't second guess a Mother communicating to her children. My mother certainly said worse than that to me!! Ha Ha But lets cut to the chase,,, Daniels 2,300 year prophecy ended in 1844. Ellen Whites work picked up RIGHT WHERE Daniels work ended. The link between Daniel and Ellen White is inseparable, both are inspired by God, both bear the same message, "the end is near". A message for OUR time, the Lord was speaking through Daniel to US, as verily as He did through Ellen White, to US. One moves onto dangerous ground when one starts to abuse the anointed of God. Questioning with a sincere heart is one thing, attacking is another. Attack ME, no problem, but attack God's prophet? You better check the warnings about that in the bible before you go to far. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted March 21, 2011 Moderators Posted March 21, 2011 ClubV12, it contradicts everything the Bible says about the nature of God. What is "it" that you believe contradicts everything the Bible says about the nature of God? Is it possible that what you mean is that it contradicts everything you want to believe the Bible says about God? I know of people who reject the Trinity for the same reason-- that it teaches some things about God that they don't like. Therefore they reject the Bible's teachings and even statements by Ellen White that support the Trinity doctrine. But what this shows me is that we have to be willing to lay our opinions aside and accept the Bible as our guide to truth, not put our opinions and ideas above the Bible. When we study the Bible, our atttitude has to be, "Lord, open my eyes to see the truth, and make me willing to listen and conform my life and opinions to your inspired word." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Bravus Posted March 21, 2011 Author Moderators Posted March 21, 2011 Saying that God does not love *anyone* contradicts everything we know about God. God is sometimes disappointed, sometimes angry and so on, but he loves us with an unfailing love. Look, my point has been thoroughly missed. I am not attacking Ellen White or her writings. Rather, I am trying to defend them from the abuse of idolatry, of ascribing to them characteristics which she herself counselled and fought against. Making an idol of the writings does them a disservice, reading them intelligently, in context, with a recognition of their sources and so on, does them service. Funny, isn't it, how anything *other* than idolatry brings down the curses so fast? I've been doomed and warned so many times in the past hour... based on something I wasn't even saying. Quote Truth is important
shelly Posted March 21, 2011 Posted March 21, 2011 I am more likely to test what she says and not take it on fact that what she wrote on the subject was inspired. I believe that she did recieve messages from God that they were recorded and are useful today. However, I have found that some of what she wrote does is not in line with the bible and is more of an interpretation from the understanding of the day. I value her as a reference but place her writings no higher than any other Christian brother or sister. Quote
ClubV12 Posted March 21, 2011 Posted March 21, 2011 I also believe strongly in the bible, in either case, the spirit of prophecy or the bible, it doesn't follow that such belief makes an idol of either one. Quote
Moderators Bravus Posted March 21, 2011 Author Moderators Posted March 21, 2011 Holding Ellen White's writings to be infallible, when they contradict the Bible, constitutes idolatry as it raises something made by a human being to a god-like level. Quote Truth is important
Moderators Bravus Posted March 21, 2011 Author Moderators Posted March 21, 2011 But if the term 'idolatry' is a stumbling-block to you, by all means avoid it. My point is simply the Biblical one of 'test the Spirits, hold fast what is good'. Quote Truth is important
Moderators John317 Posted March 21, 2011 Moderators Posted March 21, 2011 Saying that God does not love *anyone* contradicts everything we know about God. God is sometimes disappointed, sometimes angry and so on, but he loves us with an unfailing love. The Bible, however, teaches things about God that you evidently don't accept, so in what way is the Bible the measuring stick of truth for you when it comes to what God is like? No one who knows of that statement by Ellen White says that it expressed how Ellen White really believed or felt. It seems to me that you are ignoring the very important fact that she didn't write this statement to the church, nor did she ever indicate that God showed her that He doesn't love naughty children. Therefore, it is irrelevant except to those who use the statement to try and make it appear to be something it isn't in order to cast doubt on Ellen White's writings as "the Spirit of prophecy.". Whenever I've seen it mentioned on this Forum, is has always been quoted without the context, as if it was part of the writings she intended for the church. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted March 21, 2011 Moderators Posted March 21, 2011 My point is simply the Biblical one of 'test the Spirits, hold fast what is good'. The SDA church has done this, and it continues to decide that Ellen White was a genuine prophet of God. I personally agree with the church or I wouldn't be a member of the church. The question is, what part if any do you say is no good and should not be held fast to? Do you believe what she said God showed her in vision regarding the end-time events and the destruction of the wicked? We could ask the same question about the Bible. If we begin rejecting parts of the Bible, how do we determine what parts to jettison and what parts to hold on to? Do we go by our personal likes and dislikes? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Bravus Posted March 21, 2011 Author Moderators Posted March 21, 2011 I only replied about it because the question had been asked. I am not trying to build a strong case on it. Since you seem determined to keep at it, though, let's try this one: What about the 'page after page' that she copied from other, presumably non-inspired, authors into the works she wrote for the church. Read carefully - I am not levelling a charge of plagiarism - that battle has been fought elsewhere. My concern is different: how does word-for-word transcription of uninspired history become prophecy? Is there some prophetic gift in her selection or copying of sources? Again, understand that I am not trying to impeach all of her work. I am trying to work toward a careful, thoughtful, scholarly approach. That is something quite different from 'picking and choosing as the mood takes you' or whatever you guys claim I'm doing. It's taking the works *more* seriously than a literalist, not less. Quote Truth is important
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