Ellen White and the Spirit of Prophecy

[ClubV12]

Now let me get this straight, you say your NOT attacking Ellen White?

The issue here is quite simple:

An earthly human mother writes a letter to her children and uses words you don't agree with in her attempt to discipline them. You have no solid idea what the discipline is about or the history of the actions she is addressing. Only some vague notion that there was a problem within her household, with her children. You then take those words and point out they are totally incompatible with your limited understanding of the word of God and how it should apply to raising someones elses children. This, in critique of an author of a book on the very subject, "Child Guidance".

All the while claiming that this is your way of protecting Ellen White from spurious attacks and "opening the eyes" of SDA's.

Unless it rises to abuse, I don't critique the mothers I'm around for how they choose to discipline their children. The primary reason is because I have a very limited knowledge of their history with any given family.

I restate, you really need to consider the warnings in the bible about denigrating God's chosen vessels.

[John317]

Holding Ellen White's writings to be infallible, when they contradict the Bible, constitutes idolatry as it raises something made by a human being to a god-like level.

Who says they are infallible or that Ellen White was infallible? Even the prophets of the Bible were not infallible. Moses certainly made big mistakes, and so did Peter and Paul and James.

The Bible itself is not infallible in all respects. It is an infallible guide concerning God and the way of salvation, but the Bible manuscripts as we have them today are not without errors.

For instance, some of the manuscripts of Jude 5 say it was "God" who rescued the Israelites out of Egypt; other manuscripts say it was the Lord [kurios] who rescued them; and then still other manuscripts say it was "Jesus." Well, which manuscripts are right?

Compare

Jude 1:5 (ESV)

Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

Jude 1:5 (KJV)

I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

My own answer is that since Jesus is both Lord and God, they are all three correct. It was actually Jesus Christ who rescued the Israelites from Egypt and led them through the wilderness to the Promised Land.

[ClubV12]

how does word-for-word transcription of uninspired history become prophecy?

The real question here is:

Do you believe the prophecy? Is the prophecy fulfilled? If you are referring to a specific Ellen White prophecy, I can say this about that: It SHALL come to pass if it hasn't already!

There is nothing wrong with using "word for word" when someone else has said what you want to say in a very interesting, clear and succint manner. While that may be a problem TODAY, it was a common practice of the time. Plagerism, (which really is "word for word", lets not "shroud it in mystery") laws, rules and the commonly accepted means of writing were simpler and far less complicated then, than they are today.

Oops, I think I just plagerized the term "shrouded in mystery". Sorry about that, I remember reading it somewhere,,, I guess it just stuck. I'll try to think of some other clever way to say it so I don't get accused of doing the "word for word" thing....

[John317]

What about the 'page after page' that she copied from other, presumably non-inspired, authors into the works she wrote for the church.

Read carefully - I am not levelling a charge of plagiarism - that battle has been fought elsewhere.

My concern is different: how does word-for-word transcription of uninspired history become prophecy? Is there some prophetic gift in her selection or copying of sources?

Again, understand that I am not trying to impeach all of her work. I am trying to work toward a careful, thoughtful, scholarly approach.

That is something quite different from 'picking and choosing as the mood takes you' or whatever you guys claim I'm doing.

It's taking the works *more* seriously than a literalist, not less.

That's not really a very difficult question to answer. God showed Ellen White dreams and visions, and then Ellen White wrote them out in her own words, under the influencce of the Holy Spirit. Ellen White read books by other authors who had already written things that perfectly expressed what she wanted to say. From her viewpoint, there was no reason not to use what they'd written. In her day, this was not all that unusual a practice. This has been well documented. Eveyone who has studied literature is aware that much of Shakespeare's plays are lifted almost word for word from the writings of other people. Yet no one thinks to claim that Shakespeare was a fake or to deny he was the greatest literary genius who ever lived.

What is often not considered is that both Ellen White and Shakespeare did not merely copy what other people wrote, but they (and particularly Ellen White) incorporated those things in such a way that they were not really the same as they were in the original works. Ellen White was highly selective in what she borrowed. When we compare her writings with the works she borrowed from, we can see that she might copy a phrase or an expression or a few lines, but in the process she would usually make significant changes, such as omitting some things or adding others.

The main thing is that the end product expressed what Ellen White wanted to communicate in order to convey what God had shown her in vision.

[John317]

.. how does word-for-word transcription of uninspired history become prophecy? Is there some prophetic gift in her selection or copying of sources?

It would be good if you could give an example of where Ellen White borrowed "uninspired history" to make prophecy. Do you mean "predictive prophecy" or are you referring to prophecy in the sense of being inspired?

After studying Ellen White and her writings for a long time, I have every confidence that God helped her select the sources she used and also helped her in choosing the words with which to communicate God's messsage. I believe this is the same way that God worked in inspiring much of the Bible, such as the book of Jeremiah, which was largely put together by Baruch.

We know that Luke did research in order to write his Gospel and the book of Acts. He no doubt used previously writtten Gospels, as well as sources that we no longer have. It's even possible that some of the original disciples kept a journal of what Jesus said and did, and this may have been used by all the Gospel writers.

We also know that Peter almost certainly had help in the composition of his letters. Paul generally dictated most of his letters to a secretary who then edited it and prepard it for distribution. All of these processes were under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

[Bravus]

I'm completely uninterested in putting in hours of work for you to dismiss.

I have clearly stated my view, and we disagree. Let that be an end of it.

[LifeHiscost]

"Lord, open my eyes to see the truth, and make me willing to listen and conform my life and opinions to your inspired word."

Lawdy, Lawdy!! Give up my right of free determination to a sovereign God that created me??? What is this world coming to???

Look around in areas removed from the soft insulation and comforts of our own affluent nation and it's plainly seen where or what this world is coming to.

Thanks, John, for putting it so succinctly and logically. However I'm afraid that the most of the present generation, including those who profess some time worn thesis of a Supreme Provider, have transgressed far beyond the capacity for believing that some Super Power could think above their level of intellectualism.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Oops, I think I just plagerized the term "shrouded in mystery". Sorry about that, I remember reading it somewhere,,, I guess it just stuck. I'll try to think of some other clever way to say it so I don't get accused of doing the "word for word" thing....

Tsk!Tsk! Such blatant sarcasm. Sounds a little like someone I know very well. OTOH, carry on.

God blesses!

[John317]

I'm completely uninterested in putting in hours of work for you to dismiss.

Dismiss what?

Here is what you said:

Quote:

OK, here's my thesis statement: I believe that not all of Ellen White('s writings) is the Spirit of Prophecy, and not all of the Spirit of Prophecy is Ellen White('s writings)

That is, I believe some of Ellen White's work constitutes or reveals the Spirit of Prophecy. But when, for example, she writes that God does not love naughty children, that's Ellen White writing but not the Spirit of Prophecy.

I also believe the Spirit of Prophecy encompasses more than Ellen White's writings.

I agree with most of your statement, but I am curious to know what you mean by the words, "I believe some..."

What are the "some of Ellen White's work" that constitutes or reveals the Spirit of prophecy?

You reject what Ellen White told her children in a private letter, and that is a valid thing to do.

But that is really not relevant to the issue of whether we believe what Ellen White wrote concerning the character of God or the last-day events and the destruction of the wicked. To be relevant, we would need to talk about those things which she wrote for the church, such as the Testimonies and the Conflict Series.

Originally Posted By: Bravus

The spiritual gift of prophecy is right there alongside the gifts of preaching and teaching, and I don't believe those ended a century ago. God may well have more prophetic gifts on hand for us.

The Bible certainly teaches that God intends those gifts to continue in the church. However, the Bible makes a distinction between the gift of prophecy and the gift of teaching or pastoring. Prophets are selected by God directly, and the prophet's work and authority does not depend on the people in the church. That is different from pastors and teachers. The latter are appointed and selected by the church. That's not the case with genuine prophets of God, who are God's mouth. They communicate God's messages and are accountable to God alone.

I completely agree that God may well have more prophetic gift on hand for the church.

[Dr. Shane]

Saying that God does not love *anyone* contradicts everything we know about God.

"I have loved you, saith Jehovah...yet I loved Jacob; but Esau I hated" (Malachi 1:2, 3)

[LifeHiscost]

"I have loved you, saith Jehovah...yet I loved Jacob; but Esau I hated" (Malachi 1:2, 3)

I'm not sure, Shane , I fully understand that brief statement by God, though it seems to be without equivocation.

OTOH, wouldn't it be a contrasting statement, not actually defining God's deepest heart, but putting God's actions as a revelation of something ideal, in contrast similar to this below.

It seems to me that God never does anything less than the loving thing, else we could not have the confidence that He will always do the loving thing by us.

"“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple."

Luke 14:26 NKJV

"“If you want to be my disciple, you must hate everyone else by comparison—your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple."Luke 14:26 NLT

I'm sure, except for those who do not know Jesus, that instruction is not telling us to literally hate the very persons Jesus came to save. OTOH:

"`Ye heard that it was said: Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and shalt hate thine enemy;

but I -- I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those cursing you, do good to those hating you, and pray for those accusing you falsely, and persecuting you,

that ye may be sons of your Father in the heavens, because His sun He doth cause to rise on evil and good, and He doth send rain on righteous and unrighteous."Matthew 5:43-45 YLT

God blesses!

[Dr. Shane]

The exact wording is not what is important. It is the message.