The BIG question remains

[Stan]

The BIG question remains, is why God allows pain and suffering, esp with Children...

[Nan]

Sometimes the big answers will not be given until the other side....but that is not an effective response for

someone who has not learnt to trust God.

[Liz]

I don't think there is a really good answer for this question. But I know that we can learn from children that face adversity. They smile and laugh, and do their best to play anyways.

[Guest Editornado]

That's the current question in the novel I'm writing on Mary Barrett Dyer. In 1643, Mary's mentor and close friend, Anne Marbury Hutchinson (the antinomian exiled from Puritan Boston), and six of her children were massacred by the Siwanoy Indians they'd come to evangelize. One girl was abducted by the Indians.

Mary heard about it a few weeks later, and the news probably brought on childbirth. She named her newborn son "Mahershallalhashbaz." (The other children had "normal" names like William, Samuel, Mary, Henry, and Charles.) So I went digging for the meaning of Maher's name. It comes from Isaiah 8:4, and means, in Hebrew, “suddenly attacked, quickly taken” or “swift to plunder and quick to carry away.”

Mary Dyer named her son in a time of grief and despair over the death of Anne and the children.

But long before Mary died on a gallows in 1660 for civil disobedience and the cause of religious freedom, she had found the answer for herself. She had her course set. And she knew the promise was not of a mansion or riches in heaven, but of intimacy with God.

“Remember those earlier days after you had received the light when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.” Hebrews 10:32-36

[ClubV12]

"...she knew the promise was not of a mansion or riches in heaven, but of intimacy with God".

I really like that. First it was fear, then it was the possibility of a wonderful eternal life exploring the creations of God, then it was enough to just be able to be near Him, to spend time with Him.

[Stan]

Editornado, eager to see that book in print.

[Sonny]

The BIG question remains, is why God allows pain and suffering, esp with Children...

John 14:30 "I [Jesus] will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me"

2 Cor 4:3 "But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this world has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them."

Luke 4:5 Then the devil, taking Him [Jesus] up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said to Him, "All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish."

Clearly Lucifer is the lord or god of this world. Lucifer's principle of "self" permeates all aspects of the world. Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system — nationalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon this principle. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., the love of self).

This is why we have trouble!

[Stan]

Robert

How does that answer the question?

[Sonny]

How does that answer the question?

We are under Lucifer's system. That should explain why we have trouble I would think?

[Sonny]

Let's look at it differently: Why did Jesus say, "you always have the poor with you"? (Matt 26:11) Again, because of Lucifer's system of "self"!

So it comes back to why is there suffering? Answer: This world's leader!

[Sonny]

Lucifer's system of "self"!

Let me explain what I mean using a quote from the Bible:

Jesus asked a question: "For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves?"

In worldly terms who is the greatest? The one being served, right?

But in heavenly terms it is the servant! That's why Jesus said, "whoever desires to become great among you shall be your servant. And whoever of you desires to be first (in worldly terms) shall be slave of all. For the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve...."

Lucifer invented this system of "self" - the principle to be number one. You see it in sports...in education...in politics, etc.

If, instead of living to be number one, we lived to serve then this world would be like heaven, but it's not. That, again, is why we have trouble.

[fccool]

So, Sonny... the Earthquake that Japan is experiencing right now is the work of the Devil? Or is it a result of those selfish Japanese?

[Sonny]

So, Sonny... the Earthquake that Japan is experiencing right now is the work of the Devil? Or is it a result of those selfish Japanese?

The principle of self - sin - is the cause of all our ills. This world is under Lucifer. He introduced the principle of "I", which completely & utterly contradicts God's love that lives to serve.

[Sonny]

Or is it a result of those selfish Japanese?

This infers that Japanese are unselfish? We are born selfish. As we grow older we learn to disguise it. Commercials are a good example, some more than others. In the commercial you are made to believe that it's all about your welfare, when in reality they have something to sell you so they can cash in. This principle is in us. We are born bent-to-self, which simply means everything we do without a mature relationship with Christ is done for our advancement.....

BTW, here's a snapshot of what it will be like in heaven:

"You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth [not I]."

Notice that the principle of "I" is absent.

Besides, when we look at the life of Christ, we see no "I" at all. Hence, as Ellen White recorded, "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

So again, all our ills is because we have the wrong leader in charge of our world. And, BTW, it is going to get worse:

2 Tim 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love [agape], unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God-- 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

[fccool]

I think you've evaded the point. My point was not whether Japanese were selfish or not. My point was about the cause of the natural disaster. Do you believe the the earthquake was caused by the "sins of Japan"? Or was it cause by the Devil?

[Sonny]

Do you believe the the earthquake was caused by the "sins of Japan"? Or was it cause by the Devil?

Everything destructive is due to sin (the principle of I). Satan is either directly or indirectly responsible. We live under his kingdom - the kingdoms of this world (of which Japan is included)

[fccool]

Yet, you are avoiding my question with a "stock answer". I'm not asking if all of the suffering is due to universal sin. I'm asking whether sin of people of Japan caused the earthquake and cause many deaths .... meaning that their deaths are due to sin of someone else.

Do you think it's just to electrocute you for the murders of your neighbor, even though your neighbor is running around killing still? What sense does it make?

[Sonny]

Yet, you are avoiding my question with a "stock answer".

It seems you want to answer your own question with your own answer. Maybe you know exactly why?

[fccool]

Not really. But It's certainly can't be because of sin. It makes no sense in context of morality. It makes no sense in context of justice.

[Sonny]

But It's certainly can't be because of sin.

Well, you've seemed to make up your own mind. You have your own answer.

[SivartM]

I think that suffering happens because we have pain receptors and neurotransmitters, and death happens because our bodies stop functioning, and there should be no further speculation. It's easy to come up with trite "answers" for people's suffering when you're not the one suffering.

[Stan]

Quote:

It's easy to come up with trite "answers" for people's suffering when you're not the one suffering.

AND many of them are so painful to the suffering..

[fccool]

There's more to suffering than physical pain. I'd eagerly endure pain rather than see my wife dying from cancer for example.

Yet, mixing the ideas of sin, God, and justice create a lot of dissonance. It continually amazes me how these things just explained away in a couple of paragraphs.

[Sonny]

I think that suffering happens because we have pain receptors and neurotransmitters, and death happens because our bodies stop functioning, and there should be no further speculation. It's easy to come up with trite "answers" for people's suffering when you're not the one suffering.

Wow, seems like you have all the answers too.

The Bible tells me that sin pays in suffering and death. Sin pays its wages in death. Selfishness and greed creates all sorts of problems in society. Mankind in general is polluting both land and sea. All these have consequences.

[Sonny]

It pretty sad the non-Christians see the destructiveness of selfishness & greed - what Christians term sin. Even heavy-metal groups like Black Sabbath saw the link. Look at these lyrics:

Rocket engines burning fuel so fast

Up into the night sky they blast

Through the universe the engines whine

Could it be the end of man and time

Back on earth the flame of life burns low

Everywhere is misery and woe

Pollution kills the air, the land and sea

Man prepares to meet his destiny

Rocket engines burning fuel so fast

Up into the night sky so vast

Burning metal through the atmosphere

Earth remains in worry, hate and fear

With the hateful battles raging on

rockets flying to the glowing sun

Through the empires of eternal void

Freedom from the final suicide

Freedom fighters sent out to the sun

escape from brainwashed minds and pollution.

Leave the earth to all its sin and hate

find another world where freedom waits.

Past the stars in fields of ancient void

Through the shields of darkness where they find

Love upon a land a world unknown

where the sons of freedom make their home

Leave the earth to Satan and his slaves

leave them to their future in the grave

Make a home where love is there to stay

Here's the song for you metal heads:

Click