Moderators John317 Posted April 9, 2011 Moderators Posted April 9, 2011 We get to heaven by believing in Jesus (John 3:16) not by tithe paying, Sabbath keeping, vegetarianism or any other "act" or self-works. What do you mean by believing in Jesus? Do you mean all we have to do is believe that Jesus existed? What does it mean to believe in Jesus? How does John 3: 3 figure in? John 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted April 9, 2011 Moderators Posted April 9, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo If thieves are admitted into heaven, so should idolaters and adulterers, and murderers, etc. etc. Praise God Gerry. Yes, we do know that there will be idolaters and adulterers, and/or murderers in Heaven. In fact there already is. The important difference is that whoever is in heaven (whether Moses or anyone else) was a repentent, ex-murderer long before they were transplanted to heaven. It's like Paul says in 1 Cor. 6: 9-11: 1 Cor. 6:9-11 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Overaged Posted April 9, 2011 Posted April 9, 2011 We get to heaven by believing in Jesus (John 3:16) not by tithe paying, Sabbath keeping, vegetarianism or any other "act" or self-works. Our "belief" does not save us; but our Savior saves us. (John 1:29) Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Woody Posted April 9, 2011 Author Posted April 9, 2011 Quote: The important difference is that whoever is in heaven (whether Moses or anyone else) was a repentent, ex-murderer long before they were transplanted to heaven. It's like Paul says in 1 Cor. 6: 9-11: 1 Cor. 6:9-11 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. How 'ex must an 'ex be? Of course we know that even an 'ex would not be well accepted in our churches. Even David who was an 'ex and a man after God's heart ... was a repeat murderer after being a man after God's own heart. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted April 9, 2011 Author Posted April 9, 2011 Originally Posted By: Tallmark We get to heaven by believing in Jesus (John 3:16) not by tithe paying, Sabbath keeping, vegetarianism or any other "act" or self-works. Our "belief" does not save us; but our Savior saves us. (John 1:29) Are you saying that ALL are saved? Kinda sounds like it. If our belief is not important in the saving process ... then all must be saved. Am I reading you wrong? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Overaged Posted April 9, 2011 Posted April 9, 2011 quote=Overaged] Originally Posted By: Tallmark We get to heaven by believing in Jesus (John 3:16) not by tithe paying, Sabbath keeping, vegetarianism or any other "act" or self-works. /quote]Our "belief" does not save us; but our Savior saves us. (John 1:29) Are you saying that ALL are saved? Kinda sounds like it. If our belief is not important in the saving process ... then all must be saved. Am I reading you wrong? Either you are reading me wrong or I am not saying it right - I dunno. But what I mean is that If someone is saved; it would be by Jesus; and not because of belief. Which is our Savior? Jesus, or belief? Belief has too many different meanings and nuances; and Jesus has only one way of salvation. It's called Calvary. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Woody Posted April 9, 2011 Author Posted April 9, 2011 Okay. I think I understand better. There are all kinds of belief. But we just have the belief in Jesus as our Savior. We are called to believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved. Isn't that clear? For without faith it is impossible to please Him. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Haldog Posted April 9, 2011 Posted April 9, 2011 There is no instruction whatsoever to the Church for us to pay tithe. It is an Old Covenent commandment to Israel. Quote "You may not agree with everyone. But if you are an honest man, when someone says something you disagree with it’ll drive you to the Word. If you find out that you were wrong and change your thinking then you are the better for it. If you go to the Word and find out that you were right then you have been strengthened. But either way always go to the Word!!” Billye Brim
Woody Posted April 9, 2011 Author Posted April 9, 2011 There is no instruction whatsoever to the Church for us to pay tithe. It is an Old Covenent commandment to Israel. Aside whether there is or isn't ... IS IT NOT a great idea? What do you have against it. For it is SO beautiful. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Overaged Posted April 9, 2011 Posted April 9, 2011 There is no instruction whatsoever to the Church for us to pay tithe. It is an Old Covenent commandment to Israel. Was it actually a "commandment?" And was it actually a "covenant?" (Old or New?) What scriptures would you use to prove your point? Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Stan Posted April 9, 2011 Posted April 9, 2011 My experience is this Those who pay tithe usually have a stable Christian experience as well as stability in other areas in life, family, finance and other foundations. Those who don't usually have a yo-yo kind of Christian experience etc etc. Others may have had different experiences. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com
Moderators Gerr Posted April 9, 2011 Moderators Posted April 9, 2011 There is no instruction whatsoever to the Church for us to pay tithe. It is an Old Covenent commandment to Israel. Are not the two greatest commandments also "old covenant"? Quote
Guest Posted April 9, 2011 Posted April 9, 2011 Originally Posted By: Haldog There is no instruction whatsoever to the Church for us to pay tithe. It is an Old Covenent commandment to Israel. Are not the two greatest commandments also "old covenant"? Exactly! Quote
Guest Posted April 9, 2011 Posted April 9, 2011 My experience is this Those who pay tithe usually have a stable Christian experience as well as stability in other areas in life, family, finance and other foundations. Those who don't usually have a yo-yo kind of Christian experience etc etc. Others may have had different experiences. That's been my experience also. Quote
fccool Posted April 9, 2011 Posted April 9, 2011 My experience is this Those who pay tithe usually have a stable Christian experience as well as stability in other areas in life, family, finance and other foundations. Those who don't usually have a yo-yo kind of Christian experience etc etc. Others may have had different experiences. LOL Quote
Overaged Posted April 9, 2011 Posted April 9, 2011 Those who pay tithe usually have a stable Christian experience as well as stability in other areas in life, family, finance and other foundations.I appreciate you sharing this Stan; I guess this comment depends upon what the definition of "stable Christian experience" would mean? If I totally ascribed to what you say here; I would be concerned about painting a picture of tithing that is not God's ideal. I think you are alluding to "the windows of heaven" comment in Malachi when you comment like this; and all I am thinking on that is that sometimes the blessings are not financial - infact, often they are not. Often, the blessings are very hard to see no matter where one looks! I believe God wants us to be serious with our stewardship of His money, that He entrusts us with. It has been my experience that tithing is a part of God's ideal for His people. Some question the 10% but I don't see how anyone can Biblically question the tithe in principle. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Woody Posted April 9, 2011 Author Posted April 9, 2011 Good comments Overaged. My belief or take on this is that God does NOT bless us when we pay tithe. WE bless ourselves when we do it. The act itself is a blessing and the windows of heaven are opened not by God but by the act. We end up blessing ourselves more than blessing what we are giving towards. That's the Woody edition and I'm sticking' to it. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Overaged Posted April 9, 2011 Posted April 9, 2011 Well; it is still God who gives us all that we receive; so you & I would have some disagreement over that point that God does not bless us when we tithe. I believe He does; but I am just saying it is not always financial, or material. It might help to post the official belief statement here: Quote: 21. Stewardship:We are God's stewards, entrusted by Him with time and opportunities, abilities and possessions, and the blessings of the earth and its resources. We are responsible to Him for their proper use. We acknowledge God's ownership by faithful service to Him and our fellow men, and by returning tithes and giving offerings for the proclamation of His gospel and the support and growth of His church. Stewardship is a privilege given to us by God for nurture in love and the victory over selfishness and covetousness. The steward rejoices in the blessings that come to others as a result of his faithfulness. (Gen. 1:26-28; 2:15; 1 Chron. 29:14; Haggai 1:3-11; Mal. 3:8-12; 1 Cor. 9:9-14; Matt. 23:23; 2 Cor. 8:1-15; Rom. 15:26, 27.) Note; as one or 2 posters above stated, the Church "coerces" tithe from people. I don't see that in the official belief statement. Stan; do you know why they didn't mention 10% in this official statement? Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Moderators Gerr Posted April 9, 2011 Moderators Posted April 9, 2011 Good comments Overaged.My belief or take on this is that God does NOT bless us when we pay tithe. WE bless ourselves when we do it. The act itself is a blessing and the windows of heaven are opened not by God but by the act. We end up blessing ourselves more than blessing what we are giving towards. That's the Woody edition and I'm sticking' to it. You mean Woody's Revisionist Bible Edition? WE BLESS OURSELVES? Yeah, right! ESV | Mal 3:9 You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me, the whole nation of you. 10 Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. And thereby put me to the test, says the LORD of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need. 11 I will rebuke the devourer for you, so that it will not destroy the fruits of your soil, and your vine in the field shall not fail to bear, says the LORD of hosts. 12 Then all nations will call you blessed, for you will be a land of delight, says the LORD of hosts. Quote
Woody Posted April 9, 2011 Author Posted April 9, 2011 Quote: You mean Woody's Revisionist Bible Edition? WE BLESS OURSELVES? Yeah, right! Gerry. R U so dogmatic that you can't see anything "original" lol. Let me pose it this way ... How does God bless others? Is it not through His Church? His people? Are WE not HIS extremities. Does God not bless others through US. And if we are the method that He uses to bless ... could we not be used to bless ourselves. Come on Gerry. U can open up that mind of your's. Broaden your horizens. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators Gerr Posted April 10, 2011 Moderators Posted April 10, 2011 It might help to post the official belief statement here: Quote: 21. Stewardship:We are God's stewards, entrusted by Him with time and opportunities, abilities and possessions, and the blessings of the earth and its resources. We are responsible to Him for their proper use. We acknowledge God's ownership by faithful service to Him and our fellow men, and by returning tithes and giving offerings for the proclamation of His gospel and the support and growth of His church. Stewardship is a privilege given to us by God for nurture in love and the victory over selfishness and covetousness. The steward rejoices in the blessings that come to others as a result of his faithfulness. (Gen. 1:26-28; 2:15; 1 Chron. 29:14; Haggai 1:3-11; Mal. 3:8-12; 1 Cor. 9:9-14; Matt. 23:23; 2 Cor. 8:1-15; Rom. 15:26, 27.) Note; as one or 2 posters above stated, the Church "coerces" tithe from people. I don't see that in the official belief statement. Stan; do you know why they didn't mention 10% in this official statement? TITHE IS 10%!!! If you want to read something that TO ME smacks of being coercive, read the article, "ALL FOR JESUS" in the March 24 issue of the The Adventist Review." Apparently, the GC recommendation is 10% of the GROSS income. How this was arrived at is not mentioned in the article. The highest taxpayer in Denmark pays 68% of his/her income to the govt. Suppose their gov't decides to take 90% and the church took 10% of the gross, where does that leave our Danish SDA member? The opposite extreme is for a church member to consider as his increase, what's left AFTER he has met ALL his expenses! Quote
Woody Posted April 10, 2011 Author Posted April 10, 2011 Quote: consider as his increase, what's left AFTER he has met ALL his expenses! Do my chocolate bars count as expenses? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators Gerr Posted April 10, 2011 Moderators Posted April 10, 2011 Quote: consider as his increase, what's left AFTER he has met ALL his expenses! Do my chocolate bars count as expenses? I'll leave you to read what Woody's Revisionist Bible Version says. But here is what my favorite extra-biblical author had to say: As to the amount required, God has specified one tenth of the increase. This is left to the conscience and benevolence of men, whose judgment in this tithing system should have free play. And while it is left free to the conscience, a plan has been laid out definite enough for all. No compulsion is required. {3T 394.1} Quote
Stan Posted April 10, 2011 Posted April 10, 2011 "where your is, so shall be your money" I so appreciate those who provide financial support here. Thank you all. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com
Gordon1 Posted April 10, 2011 Posted April 10, 2011 While listening to one official press this home from the pulpit, a pastor who had worked in another division testified that the church removed 10% from his paycheque before he saw it, and this was the accepted practice. Quote
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