Perfected forever?

[Gail]

I was pondering this verse last night:

Quote:

Hebrews 10:14:

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

I think the last part can also be translated as "being sanctified".

What does this say to you?

What does it mean that through Jesus we are perfected forever?

[Woody]

I am sure there could be many possible meanings. But I like to focus on the fact that He 'counts' us as perfect even though we are not. And those In Him R sanctified.

Here are a few texts that verify that we ARE sanctified:

Job 1:4 -5 "And his sons went and feasted [in their] houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them. And it was so, when the days of [their] feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them."

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

John 17:19 " And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth."

John 10:36 "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? "

Acts 26:18 " To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. "

1 Cor. 6:11 "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

Heb. 2:11 "For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren"

Heb. 10:10 "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]."

Jude 1:1 "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father"

[Woody]

And EGW echos the same thing:

"And the world took knowledge of them that they had been with Jesus. Sinful men, repentant, pardoned, cleansed, and sanctified, were brought into partnership with God through His Son." AA 578

[Gail]

Yes, I know that the Bible talks about us as sanctified, as well as we are being sanctified day by day

IOW We know that we don't act perfectly as we still slip up.

But what power there is in those words! God is FOR us... He doesn't save us leaving us in sin, yet we don't bounce in and out of salvation when we trip.

In Jesus, we don't need to fear. It's only when we don't want Him anymore or His salvation that He grants us our wish.

[John317]

I think the last part can also be translated as "being sanctified".

"Being sanctified" is actually the only way it can be accurately translated, since it is a present passive participle. The saved are in the process of being made holy-- that is, they are progressively being separated from sin and brought into greater conformity to God's will.

The Bible teaches that believers are both justfied (made right with God) and sanctified (set apart for God's possession & use) at the same moment when they genuinely accept Christ as Savior and Lord, and then the process of sanctification continues throughtout life.

[John317]

Quote:

Hebrews 10:14:

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

What does this say to you?

What does it mean that through Jesus we are perfected forever?

The last part "he has made perfect," is a single verb which is perfect active indicative. This means that it refers to a real act that Christ did to believers in the past and the results of this act are actually and truly (not merely potentially) continuing into the present.

God has declared believers in Christ to be perfect, having the perfection of Christ, on the basis of Christ's one work of righteousness on the cross. That past act of declaring believers righteous continues to have real, actual results in the present.

[Gail]

Originally Posted By: Gail

I think the last part can also be translated as "being sanctified".

"Being sanctified" is actually the only way it can be accurately translated, since it is a present passive participle. The saved are in the process of being made holy-- that is, they are progressively being separated from sin and brought into greater conformity to God's will.

The Bible teaches that believers are both justfied (made right with God) and sanctified (set apart for God's possession & use) at the same moment when they genuinely accept Christ as Savior and Lord, and then the process of sanctification continues throughtout life.

That is how I understood it... so I guess I'm not totally off my rocker :)

[Gail]

The last part "he has made perfect," is a single verb which is perfect active indicative. This means that it refers to a real act that Christ did to believers in the past and the results of this act are actually and truly (not merely potentially) continuing into the present.

God has declared believers in Christ to be perfect, having the perfection of Christ, on the basis of Christ's one work of righteousness on the cross. That past act of declaring believers righteous continues to have real, actual results in the present.

I like that!

Now... what are some of those results? How has that worked for you? Can we hazard a guess?

[Woody]

Quote:

I'm not totally off my rocker

I've found that the older we get ... the longer we stay on our rockers. :)

[John317]

If we learn to see ourselves as God sees us-- as perfect in Christ and already sitting on God's throne at the righthand of Christ-- we will set our minds on those things above, and we won't want to do anything that would disappoint Him. We will want to be what He has already said we are. When we see ourselves that way, as God sees us, we will begin to act that way.

I think the following verses say it all:

Ephes. 2:1-10

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

[2] in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— [3] among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. [4] But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— [6] and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, [7] so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Co. 3: 1-9, 12

[1] If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. [2] Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. [3] For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. [4] When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

[5] Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.[6] On account of these the wrath of God is coming. [7] In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. [8] But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. [9] Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices ...[12]Col. 3:12

Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience.... (See verses 13-17.)

[Gerr]

I was pondering this verse last night:

Quote:

Hebrews 10:14:

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

I think the last part can also be translated as "being sanctified".

What does this say to you?

What does it mean that through Jesus we are perfected forever?

According to Strong's, you & John are correct that "are sanctified" is, in the Greek, in the present tense, i.e. "being sanctified". IMHO, it cannot have many possible meanings as Woody claims. "Being sanctified" cannot be true without an ongoing/present/abiding relationship with Jesus. When I, a sinner, accept Jesus as my Saviour, I am justified, counted as righteous as though I have never sinned. I am considered/counted as in the same innocent standing as Adam before he sinned. And as long as I maintain that present relationship, there is nothing more that God can add. Righteous forever!!!

[Woody]

Gerry. It's not MY view. I simply quoted scripture. I take God's Word as it is. Not as it is in someone's imagination. Are God's Words inspired or not. I also quoted our prophet who echoed scripture.

[Musicman1228]

Is there an end point to the process of sanctification, and if so WHEN is it?

[Woody]

Is there an end point to the process of sanctification, and if so WHEN is it?

There is no end point ... for we shall study and learn and grow for all eternity.

[teresaq]

It says to me that Jesus perfected a character that is offered freely. All I have to do is accept it gratefully and allow Him to live that perfect character through me by the HS, as I study and comprehend the Word.

[Woody]

It says to me that Jesus perfected a character that is offered freely. All I have to do is accept it gratefully and allow Him to live that perfect character through me by the HS, as I study and comprehend the Word.

I don't mean to pick on your teresa ... but I do have a serious question - Have you "accepted it"? Your statement sounds like it is easy to just "let Him". My experience has not been that way. While I have invited it ... I don't always experience it. In fact ... the days that I pray the most earnest are the ones that I feel the most rejected by Him. Why does He do it for you and not for me?

[teresaq]

I see your point, Woody. It is much easier to say than to understand and do. It is something that I am learning...

Quote:

the days that I pray the most earnest are the ones that I feel the most rejected by Him

If we believe we have a real enemy-Satan-well, of course, the more earnestly we seek Christ the worse we will feel-and be, many times.

It is hard to remember that we have an enemy who is fighting us all the way!!

[Gail]

Quote:

In fact ... the days that I pray the most earnest are the ones that I feel the most rejected by Him. Why does He do it for you and not for me?

Woody, if we were to go by feelings we would be done for. You would have good reason to feel rejected.

But we need to remember to walk by faith and not by sight... How you feel does not change the truth that God IS there with you, bringing you along. He knows it's hard but there may be no other way to mature you into this patience that He currently wants to bless you and teach you with.

But when you feel that way, keep praying, like the inopportune widow that kept asking until she was satisfied, or the neighbour that didn't want to help his friend but he did anyway because of the friend's need. It is times like that that we your friends can encourage you and lift you up while you sort out the deeper things with our Father.

:)

[Gail]

Quote:

While I have invited it ... I don't always experience it.

My friend, meditate upon the verse until it becomes yours. That is what EGW means when she says to "appropriate" what we read in Scripture. She knew that a plain reading of God's word is not the same as making it God's message for what you are going through now.

It's weird but true that even though it seems like being a blind person in accepting what we read there, for at the time it just doesn't make sense, that is often exactly what we need to do. THEN big things happen. That is how I have found it...

Calmly trusting and reminding yourself of the particular truth, will train our brains to turn to Him as the flower to the sun. :)

[Musicman1228]

John said, "If we learn to see ourselves as God sees us-- as perfect in Christ and already sitting on God's throne at the righthand of Christ--".

So, what you are suggesting is that because Jesus Christ is perfect (no doubt about it) and Jesus stands between us and the Father if we ask Him too, then the Father is fooled into thinking that we are as perfect as Jesus because He (the Father) can't see past or around Jesus to see us in our sinful condition.

I know this will disappoint you but I cannot see how the omnipotent God could possibly be fooled by this arrangement. And even if this was possible do you really think that Jesus would participate in a deception as nefarious as Jacob putting on his brother Esau's clothes and fooling Issac at the behest of Rebecca?

This make NO SENCE to me, and never will.

[Guest]

Whoever said the Father was fooled? Nobody! Just because the Father excepts something doesn't mean He is fooled. That's absurd. The Father also excepted the sacrifice of a literal lamb to atone for their sins in OT times. Do you think He was fooled into doing that?!

You don't seem to have a firm grasp on the plan of salvation.

[John317]

John said, "If we learn to see ourselves as God sees us-- as perfect in Christ and already sitting on God's throne at the righthand of Christ--".

So, what you are suggesting is that because Jesus Christ is perfect (no doubt about it) and Jesus stands between us and the Father if we ask Him too, then the Father is fooled into thinking that we are as perfect as Jesus because He (the Father) can't see past or around Jesus to see us in our sinful condition.

I know this will disappoint you but I cannot see how the omnipotent God could possibly be fooled by this arrangement. And even if this was possible do you really think that Jesus would participate in a deception as nefarious as Jacob putting on his brother Esau's clothes and fooling Issac at the behest of Rebecca?

This make NO SENCE to me, and never will.

All I can say is that, as Richard already observed, you don't seem to have a very good grasp of the plan of redemption.

There's no deception involved, nor is God fooled in any way.

This is another demonstration of why you reject 2/3 of the New Testament and have so many wrong ideas of the Bible and of Ellen White. These are things you should have learned and understood when you were in elemenatry school. My guess is that you did hear them and accept them at one time, until you began to listen to false teachings.

Check out Matt. 22: 1-14:

And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, [2] "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, [3] and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. [4] Again he sent other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.' [5] But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, [6] while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. [7] The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. [8] Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. [9] Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.' [10] And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.

[11] "But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. [12] And he said to him, 'Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. [13] Then the king said to the attendants, 'Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' [14] For many are called, but few are chosen."

Compare a few texts:

Isaiah 61:11

I will greatly rejoice in the Lord;

my soul shall exult in my God,

for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation;

he has covered me with the robe of righteousness,

as a bridegroom decks himself like a priest with a beautiful headdress,

and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

Genesis 15:6

And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

Psalm 51:1-13

To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet went to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.

Have mercy on me, O God,

according to your steadfast love;

according to your abundant mercy

blot out my transgressions.

[2] Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,

and cleanse me from my sin!

[3] For I know my transgressions,

and my sin is ever before me.

[4] Against you, you only, have I sinned

and done what is evil in your sight,

so that you may be justified in your words

and blameless in your judgment.

[5] Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,

and in sin did my mother conceive me.

[6] Behold, you delight in truth in the inward being,

and you teach me wisdom in the secret heart.

[7] Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;

wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

[8] Let me hear joy and gladness;

let the bones that you have broken rejoice.

[9] Hide your face from my sins,

and blot out all my iniquities.

[10] Create in me a clean heart, O God,

and renew a right spirit within me.

[11] Cast me not away from your presence,

and take not your Holy Spirit from me.

[12] Restore to me the joy of your salvation,

and uphold me with a willing spirit.

[13] Then I will teach transgressors your ways,

and sinners will return to you.

Isaiah 1:18

"Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord:

though your sins are like scarlet,

they shall be as white as snow;

though they are red like crimson,

they shall become like wool.

Isaiah 6:5-7

And I said: "Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!"

[6] Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar. [7] And he touched my mouth and said: "Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for.

Isaiah 53:1-12

Who has believed what they heard from us?

And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?

[2] For he grew up before him like a young plant,

and like a root out of dry ground;

he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,

and no beauty that we should desire him.

[3] He was despised and rejected by men;

a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;

and as one from whom men hide their faces

he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

[4] Surely he has borne our griefs

and carried our sorrows;

yet we esteemed him stricken,

smitten by God, and afflicted.

[5] But he was wounded for our transgressions;

he was crushed for our iniquities;

upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,

and with his stripes we are healed.

[6] All we like sheep have gone astray;

we have turned every one to his own way;

and the Lord has laid on him

the iniquity of us all.

[7] He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,

yet he opened not his mouth;

like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,

and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,

so he opened not his mouth.

[8] By oppression and judgment he was taken away;

and as for his generation, who considered

that he was cut off out of the land of the living,

stricken for the transgression of my people?

[9] And they made his grave with the wicked

and with a rich man in his death,

although he had done no violence,

and there was no deceit in his mouth.

[10] Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;

he has put him to grief;

when his soul makes an offering for sin,

he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;

the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

[11] Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;

by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,

make many to be accounted righteous,

and he shall bear their iniquities.

[12] Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,

and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,

because he poured out his soul to death

and was numbered with the transgressors;

yet he bore the sin of many,

and makes intercession for the transgressors.

Isaiah 55:6-13

"Seek the Lord while he may be found;

call upon him while he is near;

[7] let the wicked forsake his way,

and the unrighteous man his thoughts;

let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him,

and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

[8] For my thoughts are not your thoughts,

neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.

[9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth,

so are my ways higher than your ways

and my thoughts than your thoughts.

[10] "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven

and do not return there but water the earth,

making it bring forth and sprout,

giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater,

[11] so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth;

it shall not return to me empty,

but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,

and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

[12] "For you shall go out in joy

and be led forth in peace;

the mountains and the hills before you

shall break forth into singing,

and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.

[13] Instead of the thorn shall come up the cypress;

instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle;

and it shall make a name for the Lord,

an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off."

Zech. 3:1-5

Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. [2] And the Lord said to Satan, "The Lord rebuke you, O Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is not this a brand plucked from the fire?" [3] Now Joshua was standing before the angel, clothed with filthy garments. [4] And the angel said to those who were standing before him, "Remove the filthy garments from him." And to him he said, "Behold, I have taken your iniquity away from you, and I will clothe you with pure vestments." [5] And I said, "Let them put a clean turban on his head." So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the Lord was standing by.

[Guest]

What an excellent post John. Piles of evidence for MM to see. But I have come to the conclusion that he doesn't even look at the evidence. Or can't see it for some strange reason. He just keeps parroting the same stuff over and over, no matter what you try to show him. I have even shown him where Jesus said the exact opposite of something he believes. And it doesn't even register.

[wayfinder]

Revelation 3:17 NAS

'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Revelation 16:15 NAS

("Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.")

Revelation 3:18 NAS

I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed ; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

Matthew 16:27 NAS

"For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.

John 3:21 NAS

"But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

[Dr. Rich]

Hey Richard, will you please show me where a lamb is ever sacrificed to atone for anyone's sin? God expects perfection and will not accept anything less. This perfection is NOT the perfection of Christ, it is up to each of us to overcome sin ourselves just a God told Cain.