I want proof!

[Gail]

I heard a sermon recently where the speaker claimed that when a person needs proof of something, that person really does not want to believe it.

ie- If a person wants something badly enough he is willing to overlook the process and just accept the item.

Thoughts?

[Igakusei]

I totally agree with this. From my experience as one with a science education however, I place a high standard on the word "proof." As far as I'm concerned, proving things is what mathematicians do; the rest of us should just be concerned with interpreting evidence with whatever the best tools and resources are available.

In my experience people who always talk about "proof" tend to have very black-and-white views on things, where the world is cut-and-dry and the answers to life's questions are easily ascertained.

There are varying degrees of evidence, though. Take the Sun, for instance. Since we know where the Sun and Earth are in relation to each other and we know about their present velocities and the laws of gravity and inertia, we can plug the numbers in and predict with an extremely high degree of accuracy, say, exactly what time sunrise next Tuesday will be. We have a LOT of evidence that supports these theories, and they're almost universally accepted (Except for those flat-Earthers and Geocentrists, I guess).

On the other hand, take economics. There isn't a single person or team of people in the world that, with the best data and analytical methods available, can predict exactly what the economic repercussions of any Federal tax laws will be. There's just no way to know for sure how the Dow Jones will be trading next Tuesday, because there are far too many variables to deal with. Because of this uncertainty you've got Democrats and Republicans at each others throats, both totally convinced that they understand everything and the other side understands nothing.

So asking for "proof" that the Sun will rise tomorrow, or that Obama's next financial plan will be beneficial, is just a silly question to begin with. We don't, and can't ever, have definitive proof for either.

[Tom Wetmore]

That statement strikes me as a lazy man's way of avoiding having to defend what he believes.

The implication is that desire to believe trumps proof. That would mean that the speaker making that claim likewise believes only what he wants to believe since proof is unnecessary.

Assuming the truth of that statement for the sake of argument, I think the opposite corollary suggests that a person that believes without needing some proof is very likely to believe anything.

[Dr. Shane]

I think Tom is on to something.

[Gail]

The implication is that desire to believe trumps proof. That would mean that the speaker making that claim likewise believes only what he wants to believe since proof is unnecessary.

Okay...

How often should one desire proof, then?

[Bravus]

As Igakusei said, 'proof' is really the domain of mathematicians. 'Supported by the evidence' is what scientists say, and it's also a decent standard for everyday life (though the kinds of evidence may differ).

Within that, we all have evidence that supports our beliefs. If we didn't, as Tom says, we'd believe anything.

It comes down to the kinds of evidence and the preponderance of evidence.

Ideally as a scientist one would not 'want to believe' or 'want to not believe', bit should dispassionately follow where the evidence leads. That's probably not a realistic stance for everyday life (and, just quietly, for scientists either).

The Bible exhorts us in a number of places to seek and test the evidence - statements of the kind the preacher made are a relatively recent phenomenon.

[Gail]

Within that, we all have evidence that supports our beliefs. If we didn't, as Tom says, we'd believe anything.

Either that or you wouldn't believe anything anyone told you, or anything you read. Some people would question what they saw, even.

I mean, do you question everything? Seriously?

[Gail]

I like the way the discussion is going, I'm just stirring the pot. <poke>

[Bravus]

I mean, do you question everything? Seriously?

I think so, yeah, but it's within the context of the lifelong set of evidence I've already accumulated. It's not as though I wake up each day and have to check again that the sun has risen. A bit over 17,000 prior experiences means I can take that one for granted.

So the interesting things relate to new evidence: is there evidence that contradicts a long-held view, or evidence that supports a tentative new view?

[Dr. Shane]

Christianity has the evidence on its side. There is more evidence supporting the Resurrection than any other event in ancient history. We have eye witness testimony from multiple sources that were martyred because of it. So the leap of faith that is required is not nearly what is required for other belief systems.

[Igakusei]

Christianity has the evidence on its side. There is more evidence supporting the Resurrection than any other event in ancient history. We have eye witness testimony from multiple sources that were martyred because of it. So the leap of faith that is required is not nearly what is required for other belief systems.

Multiple lines of evidence indicate that your multiple sources were written decades and centuries later, along with the accounts of their alleged martyrdom. Hardly "eyewitness testimony."

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Within that, we all have evidence that supports our beliefs. If we didn't, as Tom says, we'd believe anything.

Either that or you wouldn't believe anything anyone told you, or anything you read. Some people would question what they saw, even.

I mean, do you question everything? Seriously?

Yeah, I think I have all my life been inquisitive, exploring poking into holes, turning over rocks, always checking for that new bit of evidence. I am told that as a small child "Why?" "How?" and "What?" often came out my mouth. Still does.

Like Bravus, there are eventually some things taken for granted after no new evidence turns up. But as I get older, I tend to try to take another fresh look at evidence for many things I had assumed were true. You no doubt notice evidence of my discoveries and ongoing quests here. It's called learning. It stops when you die.

I especially question what I see. Optical illusions are endlessly fascinating. Things are often not as they seem to be. And sometimes it only takes a small bit of additional evidence to break the illusion, or simply looking at it from a different perspective. It may require being outside the box.

I think there are a lot of "optical illusions" we face in our dearly held assumptions (beliefs, if you wish) about God, the Bible, EGW, ourselves, others our destiny...

Don't ignore the man behind the curtain...

[Gerr]

That statement strikes me as a lazy man's way of avoiding having to defend what he believes.

The implication is that desire to believe trumps proof. That would mean that the speaker making that claim likewise believes only what he wants to believe since proof is unnecessary.

Assuming the truth of that statement for the sake of argument, I think the opposite corollary suggests that a person that believes without needing some proof is very likely to believe anything.

[Nich]

I heard a sermon recently where the speaker claimed that when a person needs proof of something, that person really does not want to believe it.

My opinion on this begins by questioning the speakers claim. Does it imply that one does not want to believe when proof is requested? To me, proof is what gives me reason to believe. While this is so, one who does not want to believe might ask for the proof, not to believe, but to challenge your ground of belief.

In matters of faith, our creator does not want us to believe or exercise faith blindly, hence He provides evidence upon which we can exercise our faith, without which it would be blind faith. Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. – Evidence through His creative works i.e. the stars or evidence in fulfilled prophecy.

[phkrause]

I heard a sermon recently where the speaker claimed that when a person needs proof of something, that person really does not want to believe it.

ie- If a person wants something badly enough he is willing to overlook the process and just accept the item.

Thoughts?

I agree and disagree with the speakers claim. I also see what he's doing. Because there are certain things in the Bible which are not easily proven, like Creation, the Flood, etc. These are ones that we except on faith. I believe as we read through the Bible and as the Bible proves itself true and as archeology continues to find more and more evidence that the Bible is accurate, than we can believe the parts that we can't always find evidence for.

[Dr. Shane]

Multiple lines of evidence indicate that your multiple sources were written decades and centuries later, along with the accounts of their alleged martyrdom. Hardly "eyewitness testimony."

"Last eve I passed a blacksmith's door

And heard the anvil ring the vesper chime;

When looking in, I saw upon the floor,

Old hammers worn with beating years of time.

" 'How many anvils have you had,' said I

'To wear and batter all these hammers so?'

'Just one,' said he, then said with twinkling eye,

'The anvil wears the hammers out you know.'

"And so, I thought, the anvil of God's word

For ages skeptics blows have beat upon;

Yet, though the noise of falling blows was heard,

The anvil is unharmed--the hammers gone!"

[Gail]

Quote:

In matters of faith, our creator does not want us to believe or exercise faith blindly, hence He provides evidence upon which we can exercise our faith, without which it would be blind faith. Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. – Evidence through His creative works i.e. the stars or evidence in fulfilled prophecy.

I think we have 2 conflicting thoughts here...

Heb.11:1 talks about the evidence of things NOT seen. IOW, there are some things you are just not going to get proof for. That is what faith is- if you can explain it, it doesn't take much faith to believe in it. Faith is going by what you cannot see. The verse talks about things hoped for- also, not something that you can see at all. Abraham left Ur because he heard a voice. He didn't know what he would receive on the other side nor did he even receive his reward at that time. He just left. He probably had relatives who thought he was running blindly.

If we could receive proof for everything we wished explained, then God would not be beyond man. His knowledge would be attainable to mortals.

[phkrause]

Quote:

In matters of faith, our creator does not want us to believe or exercise faith blindly, hence He provides evidence upon which we can exercise our faith, without which it would be blind faith. Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. – Evidence through His creative works i.e. the stars or evidence in fulfilled prophecy.

I think we have 2 conflicting thoughts here...

Heb.11:1 talks about the evidence of things NOT seen. IOW, there are some things you are just not going to get proof for. That is what faith is- if you can explain it, it doesn't take much faith to believe in it. Faith is going by what you cannot see. The verse talks about things hoped for- also, not something that you can see at all. Abraham left Ur because he heard a voice. He didn't know what he would receive on the other side nor did he even receive his reward at that time. He just left. He probably had relatives who thought he was running blindly.

If we could receive proof for everything we wished explained, then God would not be beyond man. His knowledge would be attainable to mortals.

This is what I meant, but didn't do a very good job of it. :(

[Gail]

Au contraire- I think you did! :)

[Igakusei]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

Multiple lines of evidence indicate that your multiple sources were written decades and centuries later, along with the accounts of their alleged martyrdom. Hardly "eyewitness testimony."

"Last eve I passed a blacksmith's door

And heard the anvil ring the vesper chime;

When looking in, I saw upon the floor,

Old hammers worn with beating years of time.

" 'How many anvils have you had,' said I

'To wear and batter all these hammers so?'

'Just one,' said he, then said with twinkling eye,

'The anvil wears the hammers out you know.'

"And so, I thought, the anvil of God's word

For ages skeptics blows have beat upon;

Yet, though the noise of falling blows was heard,

The anvil is unharmed--the hammers gone!"

It's hard to see what the anvil actually looks like these days with your head in the sand.

[Dr. Shane]

Isn't it peculiar that there is more debate, dissension and confusion over the wording in Shakespeare's plays, written in English just 400 years ago, than we have in the debate over variants in the Greek for our anvil?

[Tobiwan]

Paul told the early church to "examine everything, and hold on to the good stuff"

As to proof, God gives us evidence to what He is like. (That really is the question, isn't it ?) Jesus in how He treated Mary M., and Simon at his feast, the man at the pool who looked up into the kindest face he had ever seen, and hearing the words "would you like to be made whole?" His patience with Israel from generation to generation. His dealing with this church, that each year keeps coming up with some NEW PROGRAM to finish "the work". How He has dealt with me. These and many more show us what He is like. He invites us to examine the evidence and see if He is someone we want to get involved with. If we trust Him, He will save us. Forgiveness is not an hinderance to God. He told Solomon " If you follow Me like your father David did..." The way that He loves and forgets is so CoooooooooooooL.

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome has been called the height of Insanity. I heard Morris Venden make the point that we must be doing something wrong because, (look around friends) we are still here.

Jesus has made it clear that when we lift Him up, He will draw all to Him. The thief on the cross marveled at a King that would forgive His tormentors. He decided there was hope for him and asked to be a part of a kingdom with King like that. Jesus said, No Problem friend.

That is the evidence we can hang our hat on, to me that is the proof we need

[Bravus]

[Gail]

Jesus has made it clear that when we lift Him up, He will draw all to Him. The thief on the cross marveled at a King that would forgive His tormentors. He decided there was hope for him and asked to be a part of a kingdom with King like that. Jesus said, No Problem friend.

That is the evidence we can hang our hat on, to me that is the proof we need

That works great for those who have accepted that Jesus really lived and that He is what He claimed to be. There are some who dispute that.

But the effect of that belief is amazing, if one can credit His believers' lives as the proof that He is.

[Tobiwan]

Looking at our history can we really say, I mean really really say we have lifted up Jesus? Any one been to a church board meeting to decide or vote on some renovation or project?

I'm told that when Ellen submitted her Book "Steps to Christ" to be published by R&H it was refused. She went to another publisher. So much for lifting up Jesus. In later years they did publish a book "Who has the Truth" reporting on IIRC 5 individuals. One of these individuals made Jesus very real to me and answered questions my academy bible teachers said I had no business asking. Jesus was lifted up by this man to me. To the best of my knowledge, this man was never interviewed for this book but a lot of what was attributed to him I have been unable to find in any other of his presentations. My point is this Lifting up Jesus has not been and will not be well received.

Never mind what we might say to Jesus in a meeting in heaven, more importantly what would we say to Him if He were to walk into one of our churches on a Sabbath morning. The people would still likely say "No one ever talked about God this way. If there are some trying, they are few and far between.

I will say again say it is time to lift up Jesus as best we can, we who really know Him so poorly. Lift Him up and the angels and the Holy Spirit will take our feeble and foolish (in many places) preaching, and transform it into a very clear invitation to look at who is being lifted up. Not what but Who is being lifted up. And wonders of wonders, when we do this, this simple thing, He will draw all to Himself. Many, sadly will refuse. but hopefully not because we failed to lift Him up. Or we failed to go out in to the highways and urge and compel them to come. Or we missed them because we were looking down at the sidewalk.

When God presented Eve to Adam, and Adam saw what God had done (I know, God used better material) i don't think he said as recorded, (small case) now this is woman blah blah blah. He said (large case) WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHMAN, WOMAN!!!!!!!!

Early Desire of Ages is recorded that the image of God had all but been obliterated. You can restrict that to spiritual stuff if you want. But then read how someone who saw her describes her in the first book of the series. . God gave these two teenagers a covering of light and it must have been fantastic. I will say this though, if we can not handle what is around us here, we will never see or experience what God planned for us from the beginning.