Remember when_____

[Woody]

Ellen White in her time told us not to see physicans. See "To Those Who Are Receiving The Seal of the Living God." So I doubt she would have approved vaccinations.

[Gerr]

When ever the conversation of meat eating and SDA comes up we conviently forget that Jesus ate meat. Doesn't the bible advise us that we are not to judge each other on whether we eat meat or not? Why is it an issue in our church at all. Our health message should revolve around clean and unclean meats which is biblical.

I can't believe what you just said!!!

[shelly]

Gerry, I am unsure of what is shocking about my statement. Everything I said is echoed in the bible. Jesus did eat meat, and Paul tells us our choice in whether to eat or not eat meat should not divide us. Jesus is soon to come and I feel it is a waste of resource to try to push an agenda that the bible says is not a salvation issue. Or are you in disagreement with the teaching clean and unclean as our health message? Research shows that a plant based diet is the key to health over a meat free diet. Individuals who eat 2-3 servings of meat a week have the same health benifits as vegitarians that eat a plant based diet. Those who refrain from meat and eat a carbohydrate based diet (pasta, potato chips, bread) are less healthy than those who eat the 2-3 servings of meat a week.

[Woody]

Gerry, I am unsure of what is shocking about my statement. Everything I said is echoed in the bible. Jesus did eat meat, and Paul tells us our choice in whether to eat or not eat meat should not divide us. Jesus is soon to come and I feel it is a waste of resource to try to push an agenda that the bible says is not a salvation issue. Or are you in disagreement with the teaching clean and unclean as our health message? Research shows that a plant based diet is the key to health over a meat free diet. Individuals who eat 2-3 servings of meat a week have the same health benifits as vegitarians that eat a plant based diet. Those who refrain from meat and eat a carbohydrate based diet (pasta, potato chips, bread) are less healthy than those who eat the 2-3 servings of meat a week.

[phkrause]

Gerry, I am unsure of what is shocking about my statement. Everything I said is echoed in the bible. Jesus did eat meat, and Paul tells us our choice in whether to eat or not eat meat should not divide us. Jesus is soon to come and I feel it is a waste of resource to try to push an agenda that the bible says is not a salvation issue. Or are you in disagreement with the teaching clean and unclean as our health message? Research shows that a plant based diet is the key to health over a meat free diet. Individuals who eat 2-3 servings of meat a week have the same health benifits as vegitarians that eat a plant based diet. Those who refrain from meat and eat a carbohydrate based diet (pasta, potato chips, bread) are less healthy than those who eat the 2-3 servings of meat a week.

That I can believe. We need to eat a balanced diet. Have you not seen the article in National Geographic about the people that live the longest. As far as in the US, Adventists because of there diet live approximately 7-10 years longer than the rest. Now I do know that many still eat meat (clean) that are in that catagory, but it has to do with a well balanced meal. We might eat meat but we also eat many vegetables with that to get the fiber. I would say that's the key word here "fiber" which many non SDAs don't do as they eat meat. Those that eat junk food obviously don't get any fiber at all.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: shelly

When ever the conversation of meat eating and SDA comes up we conviently forget that Jesus ate meat. Doesn't the bible advise us that we are not to judge each other on whether we eat meat or not? Why is it an issue in our church at all. Our health message should revolve around clean and unclean meats which is biblical.

I can't believe what you just said!!!

Shelley:

Gerry, I am unsure of what is shocking about my statement...

1. I don't think anybody here has forgotten that Jesus ate meat. Now, someone might argue that He did not have the health message, but I believe everyone is cognizant of the fact He was not a vegetarian much less a vegan.

2. I don't see anyone advocating a plant-based diet condemning those who choose to continue eating meat. Maybe I missed it.

3. If it is not a church issue, it should be an issue to anyone who has seen/heard/read about the cruelty of concentrated animal farming. When I first came to NC, I lived in an old farmhouse next to several chicken houses. Chicks are brought in and 3 mos later are taken to the slaughterhouse not ever having seen the sun. Calves for veal & I'm not so sure about pigs, but they probably suffer the same fate. There are supposed to be more pigs in NC than people, yet I don't see those pigs. They must be cooped up in some buildings somewhere. The beef Jesus ate is not like the beef people are being sold today. And the tragedy of antibiotic resistance is not only due to doctors' misusing them on humans but to a large degree their overuse in feed animals. This should be of grave concern to everyone.

But I agree with you that vegetarians living on mostly sugar and potato chips would be far less healthy than a meat eater having a balanced diet. So as a health professional with a divine instruction to be a health educator first of all, I am interested in advocating the healthiest diet. There is no question right now that the healthiest diet for people is plant-based. As a people we have neglected or some even poohpoohed the counsels. Now many non-SDAs are learning about the information that we've had for over a century and running with it.

[shelly]

I wasn't saying anyone in this thread was against eating meat. My point is that the hour is late and, in my opinion, our resources would be better spent focusing on salvation issues rather than "health" issues. It should be a non-issue in our church because the bible says it is a non-issue.

[Woody]

Good Points Shelly

Does ANYone think that the health message is designed to trick people into the church? Or trick might be too harsh. But you know what I mean even if i can't say it. Oh. Maybe "hook" would be a better word.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I think it's a hook for an enormously populated area of the world who practice another religion.

[Woody]

I think it's a hook for an enormously populated area of the world who practice another religion.

Oh, you mean sheep robbing?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

hehehe!

[Overaged]

I wasn't saying anyone in this thread was against eating meat. My point is that the hour is late and, in my opinion, our resources would be better spent focusing on salvation issues rather than "health" issues. It should be a non-issue in our church because the bible says it is a non-issue.

meat eaters will always find a reason to attack vegetarianism; and dismiss their attack as "It's not a salvation issue."

[Overaged]

Now many non-SDAs are learning about the information that we've had for over a century and running with it.

Is this an Adventist, or non-Adventist meat eater?

[LifeHiscost]

Now many non-SDAs are learning about the information that we've had for over a century and running with it.

Does anyone doubt that Adam and Eve's disregard of instruction for healthy living was a primary reason for their responsibility

of the loss of billions of lives, suffering the agony of at least one death per person for everyone born into this world. Just so, when we die early as a result of eating for drunkenous, even though we are saved as a result of receiving Jesus as Savior, would any like to hazard a guess as to how many people might have been preserved for life by our example, not excluding myself, had we always listened to God's instruction for healthy living.

"Don’t you realize that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself, for God bought you with a high price. So you must honor God with your body."

1 Corinthians 6:19,20 NLT

"Blessed art thou, O land, when thy king is the son of nobles, and thy princes eat in due season, for strength, and not for drunkenness!"Ecclesiastes 10:17 KJV

God blesses!

[shelly]

Overaged, where did I attack vegetarians? I have been one at different points in my life and probably will be again-I don't like the idea of killing animals. However, I never thought of my choice to eat meat or not to eat meat as spiritual in nature. The bible teaches it isn't an issue. I don't see why we as a church spend monies on promoting something in this late hour that is not related to salvation.

[Woody]

Overaged, where did I attack vegetarians? I have been one at different points in my life and probably will be again-I don't like the idea of killing animals. However, I never thought of my choice to eat meat or not to eat meat as spiritual in nature. The bible teaches it isn't an issue. I don't see why we as a church spend monies on promoting something in this late hour that is not related to salvation.

Excellent. Straight to the 'meat' of the issue.

[shelly]

LifeHisCost, the fall was centered on disobediance not what Adam and Eve ate. Besides, didn't Jesus say it was what came from within a man that defiled him. There are instructions on how to eat in the bible. I do believe that eating a plant based diet is best for us. However, it is the lie I told or the forgiveness I withheld that will keep me from the kingdom. I have seen many efforts and community outreaches on healthy living. I would like to see one on how to forgive when someone does something that seems unforgivable!

[Gerr]

... However, I never thought of my choice to eat meat or not to eat meat as spiritual in nature. The bible teaches it isn't an issue. I don't see why we as a church spend monies on promoting something in this late hour that is not related to salvation.

There is more religion to what one eats & drinks than meets the eye.

ESV | Php 3:19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.

ESV | 1 Co 10:31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

[Textus Receptus]

Originally Posted By: shelly

Overaged, where did I attack vegetarians? I have been one at different points in my life and probably will be again-I don't like the idea of killing animals. However, I never thought of my choice to eat meat or not to eat meat as spiritual in nature. The bible teaches it isn't an issue. I don't see why we as a church spend monies on promoting something in this late hour that is not related to salvation.

Excellent. Straight to the 'meat' of the issue.

I am not a vegetarian. You are correct; there are no prohibitions in the bible for eating meat, other than the laws found in Leviticus. Eating meat has no bearing on our salvation. I choose to eat meat as a matter of personal choice. Frankly, I LOVE beef ribs! That said, I do understand the reasoning behind the SDAs promotion of living a vegetarian lifestyle.

First, it reflects the commitment to our understanding that our bodies are the new temple of God , 1 Cor 6:19-20. I assume the question that is asked is - how can we knowingly pollute our bodies if we understand the less than attactive current agricultural practices?

We know that the hormonal and antibiotic introductions into livestock may have a detrimental effect on our bodies; however, is this enough reason to abstain? One can simply buy meats that are hormone and antibiotic free – correct? As for vegetarianism, I find the pesticides that are used much scarier. Buying organic vegetables seems to be the solution; however, can we really safeguard ourselves from everything? We would essentially have to trace every single food stuff and prepare it at home - again, not practical. This doesn’t even start to address of cost associated with organic foods.

I do believe that God provided Sister White a health message since our Father loves us. However, that is exactly what it is – a message and not a law. Our heavenly Father provided us a guide because He loves us as all parents should do.

[Bethlehem]

Shelly, you have no idea what Jesus ate. None of us do as we were not there. Neither were the writers of the gospels, who put together their account of Jesus' life some 30 years after his death. Paul, Luke and Mark were largely shunned by the disciples.

If you Google 'Was Jesus an Essene?' you may be surprised by what you read as the evidence of the dead sea scrolls indicates that he was a strict Essene, a Nazarine. The Nazerine's were disliked by the Jews as they were ascetics and lived a holier than thou lifestyle but it makes sense to me that the Christ soul would be born to the holiest people on Earth at that time...which would indicate the Nazarine's.

[shelly]

Shelly, you have no idea what Jesus ate. None of us do as we were not there. Neither were the writers of the gospels, who put together their account of Jesus' life some 30 years after his death. Paul, Luke and Mark were largely shunned by the disciples.

If you Google 'Was Jesus an Essene?' you may be surprised by what you read as the evidence of the dead sea scrolls indicates that he was a strict Essene, a Nazarine. The Nazerine's were disliked by the Jews as they were ascetics and lived a holier than thou lifestyle but it makes sense to me that the Christ soul would be born to the holiest people on Earth at that time...which would indicate the Nazarine's.

So your saying that the biblical accounts of Jesus eating fish are wrong and we should doubt the accounts of Paul, Luke, and Mark and the rest of the gospels. If you do that you have just erased Christianity. But if you are comfortable with that . .

[Bethlehem]

Jesus would not eat fish any more than I would. The term fish means mysteries. Jesus gave little fishes (little mysteries) to the masses (with the bread of truth) but the little mysteries were not understood, thus were not partaken, so were returned. The disciples were taught the greater mysteries. The well meaning Gospel writers took the spiritual meaning of these stories and made them factual and miraculous.

[bonnie]

My maternal grandmother died of pneumonia after influenza in 1918.She was pregnant and nursed her two children and husband thru the flu,also caring for her MIL. She survived the flu but pnemonia set in.She was exhausted and really didn't stand a chance.Had penicillian been available she and many thousands would have survived.

My mother's adoptive grandmother died of diptheria following a similar scenerio,leaving two children motherless during some extremely hard times.Had she been vacinated she would not have gotten the disease.

My G.Great grandmother died from diabetis before insulin was available.

There is nowhere we are told to shun the strides and marvels of modern medicine. Most people understand that medical knowledge and treatment is not infallible.

I saw the effects of one of last polio outbreaks.My mother was not one to rush to the DR but I am thankful I was not one of the victims and she cared enough to have us vacinated.

[phkrause]

Jesus would not eat fish any more than I would. The term fish means mysteries. Jesus gave little fishes (little mysteries) to the masses (with the bread of truth) but the little mysteries were not understood, thus were not partaken, so were returned. The disciples were taught the greater mysteries. The well meaning Gospel writers took the spiritual meaning of these stories and made them factual and miraculous.

I don't buy that for one minute, sorry.

[Bethlehem]

Bonnie,

I realise the vaccination debate is very emotional and I understand your viewpoint. Not many people would refuse a vaccine to save a life. Indeed the huge attraction of immunisation is the short term effect it can have to save lives. But my point in posting is that as a human race we seem to be getting weaker with each generation and are becoming more and more reliant on drugs to control various conditions, including behaviour and allergies.

I would say, controversually, that it is better for our children to experience the various childrens illnesses such as chicken pox, measles, mumps etc rather than suppress these conditions. My parents took this line with me and my wife and I have done the same with our daughter.

From a spiritual point of view vaccination forces animals to sacrifice their lives for us humans. I think it an evil torture worthy of Satan but I know I am in a small minority.

Love & Blessings

Bethlehem