Remember when_____

[shelly]

Jesus would not eat fish any more than I would. The term fish means mysteries. Jesus gave little fishes (little mysteries) to the masses (with the bread of truth) but the little mysteries were not understood, thus were not partaken, so were returned. The disciples were taught the greater mysteries. The well meaning Gospel writers took the spiritual meaning of these stories and made them factual and miraculous.

So you are saying a bunch of career fishermen were confused about what fish actually looked like. This reminds me of a sermon my pastor preached about how we miss who God truely is because we are trying to make Him in our own image. You have taken very straight forward stories in the bible and created a new meaning to fit your view of Christ. The bible even states that some followed him to be fed not to hear his message. If the fishes were actually great mysteries this could not have been the case. If you want to believe that Jesus didn't eat meat I am not going to try to convience you other wise. I will just caution you on re-writing the bible because you don't like what it says. God Bless.

[Bethlehem]

PK, most people will prefer to believe in the miricles on the mounts because it is a magical story . But why would all those people turn up to listen to the Master without taking lunch with them? They went to listen to what he had to say but most didn't comprehend his teaching at all, which was probably about living a vegetarian type of lifestyle and not sacrificing animals at the temples (that is me guessing!) It was St Paul who managed to turn the masses into a movement, not Jesus.

[Overaged]

Bonnie,

I would say, controversually, that it is better for our children to experience the various childrens illnesses such as chicken pox, measles, mumps etc rather than suppress these conditions. My parents took this line with me and my wife and I have done the same with our daughter.

From a spiritual point of view vaccination forces animals to sacrifice their lives for us humans. I think it an evil torture worthy of Satan but I know I am in a small minority.

Why do you sign your posts with "love & blessings" when you say this kind of heartless thing? If I have ever read any hogwash on this forum; that has got to be at the top of the list.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

PK, most people will prefer to believe in the miricles on the mounts because it is a magical story . But why would all those people turn up to listen to the Master without taking lunch with them? They went to listen to what he had to say but most didn't comprehend his teaching at all, which was probably about living a vegetarian type of lifestyle and not sacrificing animals at the temples (that is me guessing!) It was St Paul who managed to turn the masses into a movement, not Jesus.

What a goofy notion.. It wasn't as if Jesus had advertised and printed out a special bulletin with the outline of his talk. The people had no idea how long Jesus was going to speak. And I don't recall a "Blessed are the vegetarians for they shall eat Tofurkey."

[Overaged]

What a goofy notion.. It wasn't as if Jesus had advertised and printed out a special bulletin with the outline of his talk. The people had no idea how long Jesus was going to speak. And I don't recall a "Blessed are the vegetarians for they shall eat Tofurkey."

[John317]

...God has strictly forbidden man to eat the fat of animals. Arguments may be made in its favor, but it does not excuse man from God's requirements.

Ellen White herself refers to this same restriction in her counsel.

Leviticus 3

17 It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all

your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood.

That's right. Now how many people would eat meat if they first had to get rid of all the blood and fat? One of the last times I ate steak at a restaurant, the blood literally squirted out of the meat when I cut it with my knife, and that was after I requested my steak medium cooked. (I no longer eat red meat and very seldom any other meat.)

[John317]

Jesus would not eat fish any more than I would. The term fish means mysteries. Jesus gave little fishes (little mysteries) to the masses (with the bread of truth) but the little mysteries were not understood, thus were not partaken, so were returned. The disciples were taught the greater mysteries. The well meaning Gospel writers took the spiritual meaning of these stories and made them factual and miraculous.

There's nothing in the gospels themselveas to indicate this. Neithr the langugage nor the context show this to be true.

But why do you believe that Jesus would not eat fish?

If you think this way, how do you understand the following verses:

Luke 24:40-43

And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. [41] And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?" [42] They gave him a piece of broiled fish, [43] and he took it and ate before them.

NOTE: This story about Jesus' eating fish wouldn't make sense if it is not literally true. His purpose in eating it was to prove to them that he was really physically resurrected and has a human body.

[LifeHiscost]

LifeHisCost, the fall was centered on disobediance not what Adam and Eve ate. Besides, didn't Jesus say it was what came from within a man that defiled him. There are instructions on how to eat in the bible. I do believe that eating a plant based diet is best for us. However, it is the lie I told or the forgiveness I withheld that will keep me from the kingdom. I have seen many efforts and community outreaches on healthy living. I would like to see one on how to forgive when someone does something that seems unforgivable!

While I agree if one places one behavior above another re: its' importance, it would have to be how we treat one another. OTOH, I'm aware of an individual who has vascular disease attributed to drinking cow's milk most of 50 years. This has caused severe pain throughout the body, suspected to be the result of diabetes, exacerbated by the vascular disease.

The effort to be a kind, gentle, understanding individual, while battling severe pain becomes extremely difficult. All the more reason to place a higher priority on healthful living than is normally entertained, whether Christian or Atheist.

Whether Adam and Eve's failure was perhaps not primarily focused on diet, that is not determined by what one's opinion might be moved toward, but what results came from ignoring what God gave as the best thing to do. A timeless principle;

"So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God."1 Cor 10:31 NLT

Do you think that is a non-issue for a person hoping to spend an eternity with the Person willing to reveal everything best for them to spend eternity happily together?

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Eating meat has no bearing on our salvation.

When one is dying of an incurable cancer caused as a result of eating food, sometimes meat, it becomes easier to blame God for something that His loving counsel would have prevented, if the counsel had been followed. That is only one aspect of reasons for the most healthful living.

"Don’t you realize that all of you together are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God lives in you? God will destroy anyone who destroys this temple. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.

Stop deceiving yourselves. If you think you are wise by this world’s standards, you need to become a fool to be truly wise."1 Corinthians 3:16-18 NLT

God blesses!

[Tom Wetmore]

..(that is me guessing!)...

This explains everything you have posted...

[shelly]

When one is dying of an incurable cancer caused as a result of eating food, sometimes meat, it becomes easier to blame God for something that His loving counsel would have prevented, if the counsel had been followed. That is only one aspect of reasons for the most healthful living.

"Don’t you realize that all of you together are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God lives in you? God will destroy anyone who destroys this temple. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple.

Stop deceiving yourselves. If you think you are wise by this world’s standards, you need to become a fool to be truly wise."1 Corinthians 3:16-18 NLT

God blesses!

[bonnie]

I realise the vaccination debate is very emotional and I understand your viewpoint. Not many people would refuse a vaccine to save a life.

[Textus Receptus]

Jesus would not eat fish any more than I would. The term fish means mysteries. Jesus gave little fishes (little mysteries) to the masses (with the bread of truth) but the little mysteries were not understood, thus were not partaken, so were returned. The disciples were taught the greater mysteries. The well meaning Gospel writers took the spiritual meaning of these stories and made them factual and miraculous.

I totally disagree with your assertion that Jesus had two gospels, one for the initiate and one for the Goyam. I have read exactly of what you are implying. It is the exact argument that is insinuated in Morals and Dogma written by Albert Pike for the 33 degree initiate of Freemasonry. It's a perversion of the gospels. This philosophy is heavily perpetuated by the occult and it belongs to Lucifer.

John 18:20, "I spoke openly to the world, I always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where the Jews always meet, and in secret I have said nothing."

MRS. WHITE’S STATEMENTS ON SECRET SOCIETIES SUCH AS FREE MASONS

“There are those who question whether it is right for Christians to belong to the FreeMasons and other secret societies. Let all such consider the scriptures just quoted. If we are Christians at all, we must be Christians everywhere, and must consider and heed the counsel given to make us Christians according to the standard of God's Word.” Should Christians Be Members of Secret Societies? pp.3-10. (1892)

“Those who stand under the blood-stained banner of Prince Immanuel cannot be united with the Free Masons or with any secret organization. The seal of the living God will not be placed upon anyone who maintains such a connection after the light of truth has shone upon his pathway.” -- Letter 21, 1893.

“Among the people of God there is to be cooperation but not confederacy. The work is not to be bound about by bonds, limitations, or restrictions. Christian unity is not FreeMasonry. The love of Christ is the golden chain, which is to bind us to one another and to God.” Kress Collection, page 119 (Date Uncertain)

[Overaged]

I totally disagree with your assertion that Jesus had two gospels, one for the initiate and one for the Goyam. I have read exactly of what you are implying. It is the exact argument that is insinuated in Morals and Dogma written by Albert Pike for the 33 degree initiate of Freemasonry. It's a perversion of the gospels. This philosophy is heavily perpetuated by the occult and it belongs to Lucifer.

John 18:20, "I spoke openly to the world, I always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where the Jews always meet, and in secret I have said nothing."

Here we go again...if it isn't Jesuits, its Freemasons...if it isn't Freemasons, it's Jesuits.

[Overaged]

Get Your Masonic Cuff Links Here

[Textus Receptus]

Originally Posted By: Textus Receptus

I totally disagree with your assertion that Jesus had two gospels, one for the initiate and one for the Goyam. I have read exactly of what you are implying. It is the exact argument that is insinuated in Morals and Dogma written by Albert Pike for the 33 degree initiate of Freemasonry. It's a perversion of the gospels. This philosophy is heavily perpetuated by the occult and it belongs to Lucifer.

John 18:20, "I spoke openly to the world, I always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where the Jews always meet, and in secret I have said nothing."

Here we go again...if it isn't Jesuits, its Freemasons...if it isn't Freemasons, it's Jesuits.

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. Hosea 4:6

[Bethlehem]

I thought, mistakingly that SDA were a vegetarian church and consequently wondered what the views on vivisection/vaccinations were.

It appears that most of the people who have responded are happy enough to run with the notion that it is fine to sacrifice animals for human life. I understand that is a generally popular notion and one that probably more than 9/10 people would endorse. From my point of view it is morally wrong to vivisect animals to gain the vaccines to improve the quality of the human life. It is anti love, anti life and an atrocious thing to do - to torture animals in the name of health. That is why I described it as Satanic. People with love in their hearts could never do such a thing. I wonder if doing such evil things actually creates disease in the first place but that is another notion that I don't want to go into.

It does not surprise me that Adventists want to believe in the Bible stories as literal truth. In my posts I am suggesting there are deeper meanings. I gave as an example the spiritual meaning of fish. We know that Jesus spoke in parables when he spoke to the people. For example, he gave them two small fishes, small but profound mysteries, with the bread of truth. It was the mysteries and the truths that were given to the crowd but most could not accept these teachings, hence the return of this spiritual food in 12 baskets. (The numbers are significant.) Now you would far prefer to believe in the miracle of Jesus turning two small fishes into a multitude of fishes as physical food for the people but there is growing evidence from the deep sea scrolls that Jesus was an Essene, so he would not deal with any dead fish or creature.

The writers of the Gospels, who wrote the gospels many years after the death of Christ, did not understand the deeper mysteries themselves and so recorded the symbolic stories as literal fact.

This is my last post. Thank you to all who took the time to respond. I am sorry that vivisection is such an ugly subject. I far prefer to consider the beautiful things in our troubled world.

[skyblue888]

John,

Ellen G.White lived, more or less concurrently with Louis Pasteur. It is not clear if she knew about the vaccination debate in Europe but she taught that it is a sin not to care for our own bodies, since they are 'temples of the Holy Spirit.'

“What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?”

1 Corinthians 6:19.

“If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy: for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.” 1 Corinthians 3:17

There is a book called 'The Vaccination Crisis' written by an SDA member, which is well worth reading for anyone concerned by this issue.

The drug companies are a vastly rich pillar of society and will do anything to disprove vaccinations are anything but for the good of society. When the proof is found to link over vaccinated children with maladies of one kind and another there will be a cover-up, or a terrible outcry. My guess is that conditions will have to get worse before the penny drops and people start to wise up

From my own point of view, as a life long vegetarian and non vaccinated I have no physical issues at all: no allergies, no hayfever no hyperactivity etc. Last time I visited the USA I was shocked by how many people have a range of allegies and don't think too much of it at all. They just take the drug to help control the condition. The number of kids in your schools (and in UK) who are on Ritilin, or a drug like it to control behaviour is frightening because nothing is remedied. It's a drug for life. When I go on the sports fields there are buckets full of asthma pumps for at least 15% of the kids playing sports. I find it hard to believe that our kids struggle to breath the air.

I think back to my school years and don't recall these type of problems. So my proof is my own experience...which will not count for much which is why I was hoping to find non vaccinated SDA members who were also healthy, which might count for something.

Love & Blessings

Bethlehem

You can count me as one except that I was vaccinated when I was a little kid, non adventist then.

I am a vegetarian and have not been sick in 35 years except for getting the 24 hr bug twelve years ago..

sky

[skyblue888]

Here is an interesting read from Dr. Kellogg:

FLESH A SECOND-HAND FOOD

But flesh is not only inferior to the products of the vege-

table kingdom in the quantity or proportion of energy-

producing elements which it contains, but it is also inferior

in quality. The proteid, or albuminoid substances, of which

flesh food is chiefly composed, are only useful in replenishing

or repairing the proteid wastes of the body, which are com-

paratively small, and are decidedly inferior to vegetable fats

in energy-producing value.

The popular idea that one must eat the flesh of animals,

and especially lean meat, in order to have strong muscles,

is a great error. The notion that one must eat a strong ani-

mal, an ox for example, in order to be strong, is a cannibal-

istic idea. The savage chief eats the rival chief whom he

conquers, in the belief that he may become thereby possessed

of his courage, not because he is particularly fond of his

flesh.

The man who eats beefsteak with the idea that he

will thereby become possessed of the strength of the ox,

is acting upon the same principle. Common sense would

naturally lead one to suppose that if he wishes to eat for

strength, he should profit by the example of the ox, and eat

that which the ox eats, and thereby become strong. In other

words, as the ox and the horse acquire strength from the

use of corn, man may find strength in the same way.

The ox has eaten the corn, and consumed the greater part of the

energy eaten. There is still left in the tissues unused a

portion of the energy derived from the corn which may be

used as food; but it is very inferior food, for the reason

that along with the food elements furnished by the corn

there are waste matters, substances which contaminate the

food, and lessen its value. Muscles always contain more or

less of fatigue poisons, which are the result of muscle work,

as we have seen.

The flesh of an animal which has been overheated or driven too hard, or which has been carried a long distance in a cattle car, or which has been chased by hunters in the woods, as in the case of the deer, is always saturated with these muscle poisons. When such flesh is eaten, the poisons are absorbed, and produce within the body the very same effect as similar poisons produced in the individual's body by the exercise of his own muscles. This accounts for the languor, lassitude, dullness, and often weakness, and even stupidity, experienced after a hearty meal of meat." The Living Temple, p.169.

sky

[LifeHiscost]

Where does God coucil that we should not eat meat.

It was at His Words that I was prompted to accept vegetarianism

before ever becoming acquainted with the Adventist faith.

"Pray like this:

Our Father in heaven,

may your name be kept holy.

May your Kingdom come soon.

May your will be done on earth,

as it is in heaven.

Give us today the food we need,

and forgive us our sins,

as we have forgiven those who sin against us.

And don’t let us yield to temptation,

but rescue us from the evil one. "Matt 6:9-13 NLT

I was satisfied then and still am now after 50 years as an Adventist Christian, that Jesus and/or our Father in Heaven had/has no desire to see His children live at the expense of the slaughter of another part of His creation, whether on this fallen planet or in the earth made new.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

It was St Paul who managed to turn the masses into a movement, not Jesus.

Would that not be more attributable to the Holy Spirit as opposed to any other human being, save Jesus Himself?

"...never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."

2Peter 1:20 NKJV

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."John 16:7 KJV

God blesses!

[Overaged]

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. Hosea 4:6

Paranoia and unproveable falsehoods about the latest brand of conspiracy theory has nothing to do with the "knowledge" that God talks about in this text which you are grossly mis-applying.