Conspiracy Theories - What would Jesus share?

[JonathanPenner]

I don't know for sure, but have a hunch that we as Adventists attract a disproportionate number of individuals who fixate on and propagate a continual flow of conspiracy theories.

Is this true? Is it where God would have us invest our time? Is is helpful to the body of Christ? Is it even relevant?

What power do these shape shifting stories and ideas hold over us? Does the Holy Spirit bring them to light, or is Satan the inspiration behind their existence? Is the life we breath into them when we share them, God honoring?

Ultimately does the Bible give us any perspective on how Jesus handled conspiracy theories and the people who spread them?

[Gordon1]

Welcome Jonathan, the entire Bible is a conspiracy story, how Satan & his angels seek to discredit God's government of mercy & justice. There is a grand battle going on just beyond our vision. Many think this is a fanciful theory, but the Bible is true.

[ClubV12]

I'm a little confused, being a relatively new SDA, is there an example of one of these "conspiracy theories"?

I'm assuming they don't have anything to do with a grassy knoll or a magic bullet, by the way.

[JonathanPenner]

Short snippet of a couple recent theories I've had shared with me:

1. Chemtrails: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemtrail_conspiracy_theory

2. Bush Family brought twin towers down: Apparently Laura Bush owned one of the twin towers and it had a lot of asbestos which would have been costly to remove, so they arranged for the towers to be brought down.

3. People under our cities: There are people under the major cities in North America who are, as we speak, sharpening their guillotines in preparation for Adventists who won't worship on Sunday.

4. Red List Blue List: Are you on the Feds' red or blue list? Under martial law Adventists on the red list will be picked-up under cover of darkness and immediately taken away to gas chambers. People on the blue list will be picked up but may be given a chance to repent or sent to slave labor camps.

And the list goes on. Between September 2008 and March of 2009 the stream on theories was flowing so strong around us, (US economic crisis is the beginning of the end of the world, rent your moving vehicles now to move to the mountains, or you won't be able to get a vehicle shortly) it set off a significant depression in my wife.

[John317]

I don't know for sure, but have a hunch that we as Adventists attract a disproportionate number of individuals who fixate on and propagate a continual flow of conspiracy theories.

What conspiracy theory or theories do you have in mind? Are you saying that the Devil and the evil angels are not conspiring against God, Christ, and His church? In fact, against all humanity and all of the universe?

I would agree with you, though, that we need to be careful to make sure the evidence supports the notion of conspiracy before we conclude that a conspiracy exists.

I think we can be sure that there was a conspiracy to fly planes into the World Trade Center on 9/11, so I do believe in some conspiracies.

[John317]

...2. Bush Family brought twin towers down: Apparently Laura Bush owned one of the twin towers and it had a lot of asbestos which would have been costly to remove, so they arranged for the towers to be brought down.

3. People under our cities: There are people under the major cities in North America who are, as we speak, sharpening their guillotines in preparation for Adventists who won't worship on Sunday.

4. Red List Blue List: Are you on the Feds' red or blue list? Under martial law Adventists on the red list will be picked-up under cover of darkness and immediately taken away to gas chambers. People on the blue list will be picked up but may be given a chance to repent or sent to slave labor camps.

And the list goes on.

I don't believe any of those, although I'm familiar with the idea that Bush, or the US government, brought down the World Trade Center.

[JonathanPenner]

I don't believe any of those either. What concerns me is not some of the absolutely ridiculous stories that get passed on, but instead the effect it has had on so many people around me. I've watched "Bible Study Groups" form around a hunger for the sensational.

I often see it flourish among the very conservative. However it seems to catch the interest of many. I do believe there are many very real conspiracies that exist on our sin filled planet. But what I am talking about is the seemingly endless leveraging of truly unconfirmable sensational stories to create some kind of fear based attraction to becoming an Adventist or more accurately a "true" Adventist.

One who isn't duped by the liberal thinking that flows through the denomination. These "special" groups use conspiracies to validate their removal from society, or feast day keeping, or moving out of the cities, or somber form of following Jesus which is somehow more devout than the Christians who engage in celebration.

And most damaging of all is the many times I've watched a new and excited follower of Jesus become hijacked by someone with a new and never before known, shocking, and thrilling story. You can almost feel the joy being drained from head to toe. It's as though a cloud envelopes them, and they have to worn the world of this terrible and fearful reality. And then this same new believer takes this new found story and passes it along to their unbelieving friends and family. Now we have friends and family wondering what kind of crazy group of people this new Christian has gotten involved with. What these friends and family see is not a crazy conspiracy theory. They lump the whole thing into "being a Christian" and the Gospel loses it's credibility.

Does nobody relate to this experience?

[John317]

Yes, I know what you're talking about. I hope it's unusual for a people studying the Bible to get caught up into that experience, but any time it happens is too often. Our focus should be on Christ and not on the sensational. But our age and our society seems to feed off the sensational. It is completely unnecessary in order to keep people interested in Christ and the Bible.

[ClubV12]

Wow, I'm surprised, you really ARE talking about "conspiracy theories", like the grassy knoll and the magic bullet, the 9-11 thing, etc. etc.

I haven't heard much on topics of this nature from the Seventh Day Adventist's I've been hanging with. But thanks for the warning, seriously, it sounds like something I need to be aware of at least.

Oh, I DID hear something about the Luminati, I think they were called. Something about how they control all the money. Basically I blew it off as another "conspiracy theory" and I don't have time for such things.

I've not heard about "red and blue", but I like that Canadian guy who wears red and green suspenders.

Now moving out of the cities IS a topic I've been studying lately. The principles that EGW lays out in that regard make a lot of sense. I'm feeling kind of bummed I recently bought my house very close to downtown and am beginning to have second thoughts on that. I figured being retired and single I needed to be around people, better access to health care and such things as an older guy on his own may require in due time. If I had a family, I would be much more concerned about where I lived, but perhaps the counsel applies to everyone, not just families.

[John317]

One of Ellen White counsels on moving out into the country was that people should do it only after careful planning and when they are ready financially so they won't be sorry later and have to move back to the city in worse condition than when they left it. No hasty moves.

There's a good & small book, called Country Living, containing many of the things she wrote about this topic.

[JonathanPenner]

I would agree with John317. I also think it's important to understand the context of Ellen White's statements regarding the country, because things have changed over time. The principles of what she said are timeless, but in practice there are new influences and changes that require us to make sure we consider the heart of her message.

For instance the city influences on kids have now been brought to the sub-urban and rural neighbourhoods. With TV, Cable, Satellite, Internet and all the media sources available regardless of where you live, the influences previously only felt in large cities are in all places.

I remember my parents moving an hour outside a large city. They were on 40 acres and moved there to provide what Ellen White had describe was best for our kids. It was in this beautiful isolated country setting that my nephews tried their first joint.

On the other hand when any large disaster hits a major city and all the infrastructure goes down. We often see a wave of crime. New Orleans was a good example. Those living in rural areas faired much better than those in the city.

Like John317 notes, we should only proceed with prayer, careful planning and consideration.

In my own family the best thing my wife and I were able to do (when God clearly opened the door for us) was to move out of the sub-urban neighbourhood we were in, and onto a very private 10 acres. It has had a profoundly positive effect on our 4 kids.

However, if I were retired, I might make a different choice in order to be more effective in ministry. Placing ourselves in closer proximity to people on a daily basis. In his talk about being salt to the world around us, Jesus infers the importance of both the proximity and potency factors. We often talk about the potency, salt losing it's savor. But just as critical is it's proximity. In order for our saltiness to take affect, we must be rubbing shoulders with the world around us. While we are a proactive family at engaging in our world and spending significant amounts of time with people outside the walls of the church. By nature of being in the country, we do have less opportunity.

[Gordon1]

Yes Country Living is a good primer. Rural Economy by Ken LeBrun is another.

If we believe in Christ's soon coming, we'll comply with the light from heaven.

If we don't believe, we'll do something else.

[Dr. Rich]

And pray tell what good will you be IF you are out hiding somewhere by yourself? How can you be involved in spreading the gospel about the Kingdom of the Heavens when you are holed up somewhere by yourself?

As IF you don't believe that God will protect those who will be the ones who testify to the REAL truth (not the false gospel given to us by Paul) and if not, then so be it? Didn't Jesus offer to SERVE? Didn't Jesus offer His own life to make it possible for others to also overcome sin and become saved?

Let me tell you right here, that the 144,000 (saints) will be the ones who will be testifying to the real truth and even offering their own lives, just as Jesus did, in order for those who are among the bride during the time of trouble, to be saved. If you don't understand this, then read Revelation 19:7-8!

All of those who think that they must flee to the mountains and hide from others are the "COWARDS" found in Revelation 21:8.

[ClubV12]

I wouldn't call it "holed up" or being off by yourself without reason.

I bought my place before I was a christian, I now see the world in a substantially different light! I DO feel the impact of "city sin" around me. There ARE times I feel the need to "hole up" somewhere and get away from that influence. Especially for new christians, perhaps old christians would benefit as well! There is a reason that sometimes people NEED to go into isolation to gather strength, reduce temptation and clear the mind. Rehabilitation centers recognize this fundamental truth! It's OK to go into "deep rehabilitation" for a new christian trying to build strength for a new life. I don't invite some of the people I used to have over to my house anymore. I don't hang with the old crowd. I'm making new contacts, I'm burning some bridges, building new ones. Country living makes a lot of sense on many levels.

...and thats some wise counsel about not moving to hastily. :)

[JonathanPenner]

I have to agree with you ClubV12. While I'm a huge believer that we should not be running to the hills in self preservation mode when Jesus has called us to be salt and light, I also see many examples all through the Bible where it was essential for followers of God to remove themselves from the crowds. I think of Moses, Paul, Elijah, and even Jesus.

But to pack up and move way out into the country so you can "live a holy life" seems to miss Jesus point. When He talks about establishing His church and the gates of hell will not prevail. He's not talking about a church in the wilderness, with big huge walls and gates. And He's certainly not talking about using gates as a weapon. The only picture he could be painting here is one of offence. He seems to be saying that there is nothing more dangerous to hell wherever it may exist, than the local church, when the local church is working right. He is painting a picture of the church as a community of oneness charging through the gates of hell itself and Satan is powerless to stop the onslaught.

That does not feel like a group of people who should be fleeing to the county and running away.

But I do agree with you. There is a balance between ministering to people and recharging and even rehabilitating.

[ClubV12]

That balance might be best obtained by having out posts from which you can work the city, even stay in the city for a time, but have a retreat to recharge your batteries.

As a single guy, living alone in the country, the whole issue is greatly complicated (I've fallen and can't get up kind of thing). Meals and meal planning also become more complex, it's a lot of work canning and preserving food from that garden! A mix of young and old, a communal type lifestyle or a couple of families banding together is an approach that could work. All though, that sounds like it's asking for more trouble than it's worth!

How do you support yourself and your family? Not much work in the country, jobs are hard enough to find in the city! You'll need a good car that get's good mpg for openers, to commute back and forth. And that means car payments! Whew, "escaping the cities" aint gonna be easy...

[JonathanPenner]

I don't know your specific situation. But why do you feel you should live in the country? Do you feel it would be more God honouring to live in the country? What does it mean to you when you say "move out of the city?" Is a suburban neighbourhood still city in your mind?

I live about 45 minutes east of Vancouver, BC. The Greater Vancouver region has a population of about 2 million. When friends living in Northern BC come to visit me they feel like they are coming down to the city. When friends drive out from downtown Vancouver, they feel like we are living in the middle of nowhere. In fact people who live only 15 minutes from downtown Vancouver, believe they are living just outside the city.

Therefore it's a relative statement to say you need to get out of the city. In Ellen White's day what did that mean? What did she see as being detrimental in living in a city in her day? What did she see as advantageous in living in the country? Where her thoughts based on practical realities and logical thinking, or were there spiritual aspects that God illuminated for her to share?

I am fully convinced of the fact that God spoke through Ellen. Her work has been and continues to be a huge blessing. However, not only was she human and at times shared her own wisdom on situations as best she could, but she was also called on by God to give many timely messages that in and of themselves had a shelf life. While the principles live on, some of the specifics only apply to a narrow set of circumstances. Her council was at times very pointed, personal and focused. So when someone says, "Ellen White said..." We've got to consider the context and initial application for which she applied the message. Without that piece of the picture, we can really set ourselves up for some foolish decisions, based on what we perceived to be messages from God Himself.

The sad thing is that applying her writings in this way, not only brings reproach on her writings, but also on God. Reasonable thinking people watch us as Christians and see us making decisions that seem nonsensical. And the truth is that there are enough of those kinds of choices God truly calls us to already. But when we add those that are not from God, it can make us appear like we are just plain weird. Which is not what God called us to when He called us to be a peculiar people.

...and now I am just rambling on. Time to stop typing. :)

[ClubV12]

The counsel speaks of leaving the large cities for the small ones in preparation for leaving the small towns for more remote locations in the country. That seems pretty clear to me. When? How? Does it apply to ME, now or in the future? Very personal questions I think only an individual or family could answer for themselves by seeking wisdom from the Holy Spirit.

Applying the principal, the suburbs are better than the inner city. A small town may be better than the suburbs. The country, a more remote location may be the ideal! Timing seems is one key, along with the how. If not now, when? If not me, who? And how can this be done in a balanced way? What is the reasoning behind leaving the cities? Abraham comes to mind in that regard, maybe the "good life" is not the best life for a christian? Maybe we NEED to be challenged, to actually work for a living? Wait, I'm retired, I don't want to work anymore! Ha Ha

I'm not looking for specific answers for myself, just contemplating the counsel. As well as considering how that counsel may apply to someone that asks my opinion on the matter. My example of following it, or not. Plenty of meat here to consider!

[Gordon1]

The counsel speaks of leaving the large cities for the small ones in preparation for leaving the small towns for more remote locations in the country.

Hi V12, there's a special context for this counsel which many overlook. It's speaking of those who are working for God in the cities, as many should be. But they are not permanently based there, only working there, perhaps by commuting or renting. As persecution rises, their city work will draw to a close permanently, and at this time they remove themselves. There will not be opportunity at the end of time to buy or sell houses & property. That time is fast approaching.

Those who are working for God will have prepared simple abodes in remote locations in advance of the final crisis. They will be free to withdraw as God directs on very short notice, just like Lot from Sodom. They are not city dwellers, only visitors. It's an important distinction because many think this quotation applies to urban property ownership, but not so. Those in God's employ will visit the cities but not live in them. This harmonizes with the rest of her counsel to flee the cities.

It's unfortunate this point is not made clearer in the compilation Country Living.

[ClubV12]

"Those who are working for God will have prepared simple abodes in remote locations in advance of the final crisis."

It seems that counsel would apply to everyone and anyone with a eye toward "surviving" the coming crisis. Which reminds me of the classic situation where one family has a "nuclear defense" bunker, stocked with provisions for a few people only. Then what do you do when the neighbors show up, desperate to get away from the "fall out", with no other place to go?

The conclusion I've come to is that the refuge, prepared in a remote location, will need to be large enough to accept others who have not had the foresight or could not for whatever reason prepare in advance. Indeed, I've thought about MY house in terms of being able to accept someone fleeing the city to my small town. How does that work? Who do you accept, or reject? The logistics are complicated to say the least.

Following the scenario a step further, the small town location itself will have to be abandoned at some point. So, should I then prepare a "remote location" now? For how many? How will it be stocked? Is it presumptous to buy said property and have it sit idle because that time never comes in the forseeable future? Would I be considered a bit of a "nut case" for being foolish with my funds?

I don't want to go into full blown "survivalist mode" as some have done. All though, I wonder if they might be onto something...

[Gordon1]

It seems that counsel would apply to everyone and anyone with a eye toward "surviving" the coming crisis.

[ClubV12]

The nuclear bunker, of course, is not in Ellen Whites counsel. The principal is much the same idea though.

WHO is allowed into the "shelter" in this remote location? How many can you take before you turn them away? Will the "mixed multitude" (the neighbor) seeking shelter be allowed?

"It's a spiritual journey, not a seige mentality."

Well said...

[Ambassador]

I have with ClubV12 been contemplating leaving the city for the urban areas, or perhaps straight country living. This has not been something I will take lightly or disregard. Personally I believe I cannot ignore the counsel, but like many individuals am unable outside of God's miraculous provision to walk my conviction.

My thought on the subject is that there is a need for outposts that are the center of this type of living. However the whole point of our living separate is that we can better connect with Christ and therefore share his love in a more pronounced way. So these centers must have one goal, to share Christ with those who at this time are unable to see him clearly. They would provide the ability for individuals to live and work for the same goal, while maintaining a lifestyle that could not be maintained otherwise. They would be the centers for planning and resource. Run by laymen and associated with the church. They would allow for the planning of businesses and ways to reach our community. Training centers that allow us to teach distinctive doctrine, while being a benefit to our neighbors and city friends. Ie, a center that's focus is on the medical missionary work, that could teach young, and old, simple remedies that could be then taught in the cities. These centers while being well placed outside the cities, (twenty miles or so) would still be accessible and yet not so far that it becomes ridiculous to reach.

Many have taken this idea and ran to the extreme with it. I believe that we are not to create communes of individuals but rather work for a singular purpose. Anyone who is interested in reaching people for Jesus could join. It would be focused on action. This is the vision I have for my area.

Regards, Jerad

[Gordon1]

Right, in essence the reason for country living is to become more like Christ, which means being of service and help to others. This requires understanding the alternative to city life which God has described - including the health work.

The Broken BluePrint by Vance Ferrell is recommended reading. Shows what went wrong when this principal was allied with worldly goals.

We'll only appreciate the counsel when we realize the extreme degree of corruption in modern society. It had reached that point in EGW's day, imagine her assessment today.

But we are accustomed to sin because we were raised in it as the status quo. Country living should be a launchpad, preparatory to leaving this blighted planet, a small oasis where others of like mind can come to visit, to get a taste and try it themselves. If we believe the cities are safe places for our minds and growing children, we have not heard the call.

Country living does not require large investment, perhaps a vehicle in good running order. But house and land can be rented for little - no purchase necessary. This will give a chance for adjustment before moving into deeper country.

[BobRyan]

Short snippet of a couple recent theories I've had shared with me:

1. Chemtrails: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemtrail_conspiracy_theory

2. Bush Family brought twin towers down: Apparently Laura Bush owned one of the twin towers and it had a lot of asbestos which would have been costly to remove, so they arranged for the towers to be brought down.