Conspiracy Theories - What would Jesus share?

[BobRyan]

I don't know your specific situation. But why do you feel you should live in the country? Do you feel it would be more God honouring to live in the country? What does it mean to you when you say "move out of the city?"

Did you say you had read the book "Country Living"??

[Tom Wetmore]

...

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

Which reminds me of the classic situation where one family has a "nuclear defense" bunker, stocked with provisions for a few people only.

You'll not find that in EGW's writings...

Yeah,but you will find stuff about traveling by horse and buggy...

[ClubV12]

I have looked over Country Living and many other referrences on getting out of the cities, but I've not read that book or done an indepth study on the issue. Frankly, around my church it seems to be a subject that most folks shy away from. On several occasions the topic gets linked to fanaticism early in the conversation. I'm learning some of these issues are best talked about "quietly".

A friend mentioned EGW said women should know how to saddle and care for a horse the other day, but that was for her time, not today. I pointed out the principal I see in that is that a women should know how to change a spare tire and use jumper cables for her car! The counsel stands as valid today as in EGW's time. :)

[JonathanPenner]

Right, in essence the reason for country living is to become more like Christ, which means being of service and help to others.

For some reason I thought Christ mingled with the people. It certainly is harder to mingle with the people in the country, than it is in the city. Also how are you being of service and helping others when you don't live near others?

I love living in the country (even though I still live just outside a large metropolitan area.) I am not a city lover. But sometimes I think our rational and reasoning for what we believe God would have us do, doesn't even match up with obvious Biblical examples.

[JonathanPenner]

Those stories are in no way "adventist" -- they are well rumored outside of Adventism and no matter how nonsensical - they have nothing at all to do with SDA doctrines or promotion.

I have no idea who is telling such stories - and have never heard them.

Bob, I was in no way inferring that these stories are Adventist. They are clearly not. However they are being passed along by Adventists, often connected with the very conservative groups, feast keeping groups, and self-supporting organizations.

What really hurts me is when I see a baby follower of Jesus abducted by some of these theories passed along by fellow Adventists. Then when they share them with non-christian friends and family it brings reproach on the Adventist church.

[Stan]

What really hurts me is when I see a baby follower of Jesus abducted by some of these theories passed along by fellow Adventists. Then when they share them with non-christian friends and family it brings reproach on the Adventist church.

Best statement ever!

[ClubV12]

"For some reason I thought Christ mingled with the people. It certainly is harder to mingle with the people in the country, than it is in the city."

I see just the opposite. Jesus spent substantial time in nature, away from people. He didn't go to the cities to "mingle", He went there to work, to teach and preach, and then withdrew. He spent a lot of time in solitude, on occasion in solitude with His disciples as well. I see perfect harmony in the life of Christ and the call to get out of the cities.

[JonathanPenner]

I am not against moving out of the city. However I believe we need to be careful what we say "God said" when it comes to the council from Ellen White regarding moving out the cities.

I came across an article written a while back by Monte Sahlin, while he was doing some research at the White Estate on this subject. I appreciated his perspective.

-----------------------------------

Monte writes...

"I found 107 periodical articles on city work. Of these, 24 give instruction about moving out of the cities or establishing institutions outside the cities, but 75 give specific instruction about moving into the cities for the purpose of reaching the cities. Another eight articles speak of the Ellen White's critique of urban conditions without indicating whether one should live in or outside the cities.

Obviously, it is clear from this survey that Ellen White did not give simple, absolute instruction that Adventists should never live in cities. Some specific quotes make it clear that there were times and conditions under which she instructed that some should live, and even move into, the cities. For example, in the Review and Herald of September 29, 1891, she writes, "There will be laymen who will move into ... cities ... that they may let the light which God has given them, shine forth to others."

Perhaps realizing that some people would see a seeming contradiction in her counsel in this article, she specifically challenges readers with the question,"Why should not families who know the present truth settle in these cities?"

In a November 25, 1909, Review article she specifically directs the placing of "capable men ... in these great cities." On April 21, 1896, again in the Review, she pleads that "there might be one hundred workers where there are now but one ... seeking to find pearls buried in the rubbish" of the cities.

In the August 12, 1902, Review and two later articles, she gives specific instruction to church members living in the cities to work the neighborhoods where they live.

If Ellen White believed that we were to do all of our work in the cities from outpost centers and that as soon as a person was truly converted he or she would begin to make plans to leave the cities, it is very curious that she was concerned that churches be planted in the cities.

In the Review of September 30, 1902, she took great pains to plead that in city missions the staff "continue working until a church is organized." If all of the faithful are to move out of the city and work it from outposts, what was to be the function of these churches?

It must be abundantly clear to the unbiased reader that Ellen White saw situations in which God calls people out of the cities, and other situations in which God calls people into the cities. I do not believe there is contradiction in the Ellen White writings nor in the plans of God. Because He is directing traffic in different directions does not indicate confusion on His part, although it may confuse us!

Ellen White clearly pointed out the necessity for some workers who move into the cities and work them from the inside. She pointed out in a Review article of October 14, 1902, that "the cities are to be worked, not merely preached to," and she knew that the "living preacher will often accomplish even more than the printed page" (or other mass media) in the city (ibid., April 7, 1910).

We cannot reach a community for Christ by standing outside of it. We would consider it foolish for a missionary to say that he was going to evangelize Africa without ever staying there overnight. Is that not the same case as suggesting that the cities can be reached without any of the missionaries ever living in them? Ellen White did not believe this. That is why she directed in the establishment of "city missions" which included apartments for urban ministry teams in the cities. She saw these city mission homes as "the foundation of missionary effort in our cities" (General Conference Daily Bulletin, February 6, 1893).

There are many very undesirable conditions in the large cities. That is one of the reasons why God wants His church to carry on an aggressive work there. It is a good idea for urban ministry workers' families to have retreat facilities where they can get away from the conditions of city work.

There is a role for the outpost center concept. But there is no way that God can be understood in the writings of Ellen White as never asking anyone to move into the cities under any circumstances. That is a myth that has been developed since Ellen White's death.

Perhaps Ellen White was, in fact, shown in vision that this myth would develop after her death. She writes, "I dreamed ... brethren were in counsel.... They thought it best not to enter the cities.... One who is present in all of our council meetings ... spoke with deliberation and perfect assurance. 'The whole world,' He said, 'is God's great vineyard. The cities.. constitute a part of that vineyard. These must be worked....' We must not hide the truth in the corners of the earth...it must shine in our large cities....Sow beside all waters.... The Messenger...said: 'Your ideas of the work for this time are altogether too limited.... You must take broader views of the work....'" (Testimonies for the Church, Volume 7, pages 34-36)

I originally wrote this research paper in 1980, then in 1982, while doing some research in the GC archives, I found a letter from Ellen White to A. G. Daniells which had never been published. It was written in 1902, right after the fire that destroyed GC institutions in Battle Creek, Michigan.

Ellen White writes that "the plagues of God are already falling upon the earth,sweeping away costly structures as if by a breath of fire from heaven," and she links it to "the long-neglected work in our cities, a work that has been looked at, and then passed by on the other side...."

She gives specific instruction, "Let all who can give themselves to ...work in our cities....Take up the work in the cities wholeheartedly,intelligently, unselfishly." (Manuscript Release #915)

Ellen White's heart for the cities, her vision for urban ministry, is a core element in her divine message."

[ClubV12]

"That is why she directed in the establishment of "city missions" which included apartments for urban ministry teams in the cities. She saw these city mission homes as "the FOUNDATION of missionary effort in our cities" (General Conference Daily Bulletin, February 6, 1893)."

This next quote seems strangely out of harmony with the bulk of her counsel on city life vs country life. If ever a quote was begging for context, this one is!

...she specifically challenges readers with the question,"Why should not families who know the present truth settle in these cities?"

The above quote is begging for context, it is clearly out of harmony with the bulk of her counsel on city life.

Lot was a missionary working the city, and he moved his family there. They liked it so much they decided to stay. I wonder if he lived in the "suburb" or the "ghetto"?

[JonathanPenner]

Let's remember a couple things when we talk context.

Sodom is commonly estimated to have had a population of just over 1000 people at the time of its destruction. That's 1/5th the population of St. Helena, where Ellen white chose to live for the last 15 years of her life.

Did Ellen live in the city or the country. Is 3 miles outside the city center of St. Helena considered the country. She lived 60 miles north of one of the most sinful cities in the world. Was that far enough away?

A document prepared in 2005 by Statistics Canada notes some interesting findings in terms of Urban and Rural crime rates.

"Crime is not necessarily a large urban phenomenon. Looking at 2005 police-reported data, small urban areas were found to have higher overall crime rates than large urban areas..."

"In addition to having the highest overall crime rate, small urban areas reported the highest rates for total violent crime, total property crime and breaking and entering. However, these areas reported the lowest homicide rates."

"Rural areas had the highest homicide rate in 2005 as has been the case over the past decade. However, rural areas reported the lowest rates for overall crime, total property crime, robbery and motor vehicle theft."

"The proportion of homicides committed with a firearm was actually slightly higher in rural areas (39%) than in large urban (35%) and small urban areas (23%). The type of firearm used to commit homicide differed widely between urban and rural areas. While a handgun was the weapon of choice in the large urban areas, a rifle/shotgun was most commonly used in rural areas."

Obviously crimes as recorded by Police records, do not give us the full picture of the health of a urban or rural setting. But when Ellen refers to "cities" it would be good to understand what elements and factors was she considering in her definition of "cities?"

I am not against moving out of the cities. And I personally live in the country. I just think we need to be careful as to how we come to conclusions.

[ClubV12]

Personally, I am struggling to find that balance, while living in a small town.

When I was considering a country home in this area one thing that bothered me was the fact that I live alone. The house would be vacant when I went to town, was one of my concerns (security issues).

To get a better feel for country, I drove up deep into the woods with some friends the other day. Mushroom hunting. We got stuck in a snow drift and spent a couple of hours digging the car out (4wd). Cell phones wouldn't work. I'm not sure I'm cut out for "country" life yet.

[skyblue888]

Back to topic.

Of course there are many conspiracy theories floating around these days. Nothing new under the sun. As adventists we should be the least surprised since we are aware that the devil is the master at conspiring. He conspired against God and Christ in Heaven and he has been conspiring ever since. He conspired against Christ when He dwelt among men and who were his agents in that conspiracy? the religious leaders of the day. They were his most powerful instruments in making of none effect the teachings of Christ. "The people whom God had called to be the pillar and ground of the truth had become the representatives of Satan." D.A.36.

Ever since the rise of the Advent Movement Satan has been conspiring against God and His truth. Again, who do you think have been his most effective istruments of choice in this great and final conspiracy? You guessed it: the relgious leaders. Anyone who thinks that this is too farfetched to be true is himself a blind victim of this conspiracy. Mrs. White was shown that what happened in Christ's day would happen again in these last days. She warned of a conspiracy the like of which has not been seen since the days of Christ and the apostles which would result in the majority of adventists losing their eternal life. This conspiracy began in 1888 and has been developing ever since. Mrs. White was shown that it would wax stronger and stronger until Jesus appeared in the clouds of heaven.

If you have not yet read An Appeal by A.T. Jones, I urge you to do it now because time is short. This Appeal is followed by Some History, Some Experience, and Some Facts, and also by excerpts from Final Word and Confession.

Unless we read this Appeal very carefully and prayerfully, it will be next to impossible for us to understand the nature and character of this last great and final conspiracy of Satan within the ranks of those who in the past have and today are professing to believe present truth.

sky

[Haldog]

It's the same spirit that led Ellen to wrongly follow Wiliam Miller to 1843, 1844 and her other date-setting fiascoe's. That spirit is still in the SDA church. When a person learns to properly divide the Word it becomes a non-issue.

Happy Friday!!

[ClubV12]

Ellen White did not "blindly" followed William Miller, nor did anybody else. They lived up to the light that God gave them at that time. It was His purpose to allow 1844 to be misunderstood. And the great disappointment to unfold, as a test for that time and people.

There were many other bible students around the world who had concluded the 2,300 prophecy was about to close. But NOBODY knew what that meant, not Miller, not Ellen White, nobody, because God held His hand over understanding the matter. Before Hiram Edson's "vision", the first glimpse of the meaning, it was impossible to reason out from the bible and the bible alone WHAT it meant.

Only because of divine revelation do we understand it from the bible and the bible alone. Remove God's messengers from the equation (Hiram Edson, Ellen White) and we would STILL be trying to figure out the meaning of what William Miller put together.

[Tallmark]

Here's one of the best articles I've read in quite a while:

http://www.naturalnews.com/032293_gullible_minds.html

And here's 33 conspiracy theories that turned out to be true:

http://www.newworldorderreport.com/News/...d-Extended.aspx

[Igakusei]

Here's one of the best articles I've read in quite a while:

http://www.naturalnews.com/032293_gullible_minds.html

And here's 33 conspiracy theories that turned out to be true:

http://www.newworldorderreport.com/News/...d-Extended.aspx

If you consider that article (or anything else by Mike Adams, for that matter) to be one of the best things you've read in, well, any determinate amount of time, it says a lot about YOUR gullibility.

As far as your second link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

[CoAspen]

Tag on,

Based on what we know of Christ from the Bible......He had a better message and a more important one...than conspiracies. He might have even avoidable this forum!!

Christ was here to share the good news of a personal access to God and eternal life.

[CoAspen]

Tis not surprising that a believer in the conspiracies would quote other conspiracy believers!!!

Wow, is it that hard to Google? Nothing out there to give either person credibility.

[JonathanPenner]

Based on what we know of Christ from the Bible......He might have even avoidable this forum!!

But then again, I'm sure He would have at least checked it out, because I know He's good friends with Stan. :)

[CoAspen]

[Igakusei]

Here's one of the best articles I've read in quite a while:

http://www.naturalnews.com/032293_gullible_minds.html

And here's 33 conspiracy theories that turned out to be true:

http://www.newworldorderreport.com/News/...d-Extended.aspx

[JonathanPenner]