skyblue888 Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 You make the judgment then between these contradictory statements. Both these statements came from Ellen White. Originally Posted By: StatementTwo SOP: "could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {5BC 1128.4}" First, these statements contradict each other in regard to Jesus Christ's inner nature! The first one says that Jesus Christ had a fallen "sinful nature" like you and I. The second statement says that there was no evil propensity (that is no sinful nature). The second statement says that his inner nature was like Adam in Eden (no fallen nature). The first statement says that Jesus Christ had Mary's fallen nature. Mary's nature was totally the opposite of Adam's nature in the Garden of Eden. CONTRADICTION! CONTRADICTION! CONTRADICTION! No wiggle room Ellen White contradicted herself. Is this the sign of "inspiration" or the sign of one person giving their own opinion and getting trapped in a CONTRADICTION![/quote'] This is an example of people attacking something they don't understand but think they do. What does Ellen White mean by "evil propensity"? You apparently believe that it means "sinful nature." But is this true? You also claim that the second statement is saying that Christ had the human, inner nature of Adam before the Fall. But is this true? Does Ellen White say that Christ's nature in the Wilderness of Temptation was like unfallen Adam's? That is not what theose statements say at all. It is your assumption that they mean this, but you can't blame Ellen White for a false assumption. Please prove or demonstrate from Ellen White's writings that she meant "sinful nature" or "fallen nature" when she referred to "evil propensity." Can you do this? _____________________________________ Good points John sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Sonny Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 Sonny, I am not ignoring it. I read it. So? I said to you: "You (miz3) state that YOU died in Christ at the cross, right? Your humanity is indwelt with iniquity, right? Now think it out...." If you died in Christ (and you have admitted to this truth) - that means Christ assumed your humanity. Your humanity has a sin nature in it. Now reason it out.
Gustave Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 This is an example of people attacking something they don't understand but think they do. What does Ellen White mean by "evil propensity"? You apparently believe that it means "sinful nature." But is this true? Are you suggesting that Ellen White equated "evil propensity" with concupiscence?
Sonny Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 Sonny its your thought so you reason it out! No, no...you are contradicting yourself. You have stated that you agree that you died in Christ at the cross. Now, what type of nature do you have? Sinful, sinless? Answer: Sinful. Therefore you and your sinful nature died in Christ.
Sonny Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 So! Then you agree when I said, "Therefore you and your sinful nature died in Christ"?
miz3 Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 Be careful Sonny! Remember everything happens at the Cross! That is the critical event in human history! I might also add, it is the critical event in Biblical Truth as well!
Sonny Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 So! Then you agree when I said, "Therefore you and your sinful nature died in Christ"? I've repeatedly quoted Romans 7:4, where I think you agree that "you died to the law in the body of Christ"? And again, Romans 6:6 "We know that our old life died with Christ on the cross" (NCV) Again, I think you agree with these, right?
miz3 Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 Thus, we are Justified by Jesus Christ. No human effort, no human choice, no human anything! God did it all! All humans stand Justified at the Cross. Do they stay Justified? Great question but we will have to wait until tomorrow for at least MY ANSWER!
Sonny Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 Romans 7:4 and Romans 6:6 happen at the Cross. Yes, and "YOU DIED TO THE LAW IN THE BODY OF CHRIST", correct?
miz3 Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 Sonny, 1. At the Cross Sonny! 2. NOT at the Incarnation!
Sonny Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 Sonny, 1. At the Cross Sonny! 2. NOT at the Incarnation! You aren't answering my question. I know it happened at the cross, my question is did your life die in Him?
Sonny Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 Yes, Sonny! Where did you ultimately get your life? and I don't mean your parents. Here, let me answer and I'll see if you agree with me. Acts 17:26 From one man [Adam] he (God) made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth.... Keep in mind even Eve came from Adam: Gen 2:22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. So even Eve came from Adam. Now, did Adam and Eve have children before or after the fall? Clearly no children were mentioned before the fall. Keep in mind that Adam and Eve were created in God's image after His likeness. They reflected the self-emptying love of God. But now look what happens after the fall: Gen 5:1 This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man (creation week), He made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created. Okay, so Moses is referring to the creation week, before the fall. Both are in God's image. Now, watch what happens: 3 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. No longer is Adam's humanity in the image of God. Now Adam has a nature that is self-seeking, the opposite of God's agape. And you'll notice this gets passed to his son. So you got your life after the fall, right? The proof is because you and I have sinful natures, right?
Sonny Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 Ok, Sonny I am still listening. Well, I need to know if we agree so far.
Sonny Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 So far I agree! Good.... Remember I asked you from where did we get our humanity...our lives? Well, we now both agree that it ultimately came from Adam - the head of the human race. We also agree that we are fallen and that our bodies...our humanity has in it our bent to self, which is called the sin nature. Okay, back to Romans 6:6 (or 7:4) "We know that our old self [our old man] was crucified with him (Christ) so that the body of sin might be done away with...." "The body of sin" refers to our humanity indwelt with sin. Here's something clearer: In Romans 7:21 Paul says "sin living in me"....A few verses after that he says, "I see another law at work in the members of my body, .... the law of sin at work within my members So "the body of sin" is the same as "sin living in me" ...also called "the law of sin within my members" (my body parts). Do you agree?
skyblue888 Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 Sonny, that "law of sin" is still in the members of a born again Christian, right? And it is to be brought into subjection to the law of The Spirit of Life in Christ, right? (Rom.8:2) sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Sonny Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 Sonny, that "law of sin" is still in the members of a born again Christian, right? Absolutely.....If not we would have "holy flesh"
Moderators John317 Posted June 25, 2011 Author Moderators Posted June 25, 2011 Originally Posted By: John3:17 This is an example of people attacking something they don't understand but think they do. What does Ellen White mean by "evil propensity"? You apparently believe that it means "sinful nature." But is this true? Are you suggesting that Ellen White equated "evil propensity" with concupiscence? I will answer it by giving examples of Ellen White's use of "propensity," evil propensity," and "passions"-- 1) That your passions and appetites may be subject to the control of reason... Our natural propensities must be controlled, or we can never overcome as Christ overcame.-- 4 T 235 2) The appetite and passions should be restricted and under the control of an enlightened conscience.-- 3 T 491 3)... Enabling men to bring all their propensities under the control of the highter powers...-- 3 T 491 4) Every true Christian will have control of his appetite and passions.-- 3T 569-570 5) Nonsense and amusement-loving propensities should be discarded.-- MYP 42 6)We need not retain one sinful propensity.-- RH 4/24/1900 6) He [Christ] was a mighty petitioner, not possessing the passions of our human, fallen nature, but compassed with infirmities, tempted in all points like as we are.-- 2 T 509 7) He is a brother in our infirmities, but not in possessing like passions.--2 T 202 8) Not for a moment was there in Him an evil propensity. SDA BC V: 1128 9) Though He had all the strength of passion of humanity, never did He yield to do one act which was not pure and elevating and noble.-- IHP 155. 10) But although their evil propensities may seem to them as precious as the right hand or the right eye, they must be separated from the worker, or he cannot be accepteable to God.-- TM 171-2. 11) He was made like unto His brethren, with the same susceptibilities, mental and physical. (Roget's Thesaurus lists susceptibilities and propensities as synonyms.) RH 2/10/1885 Conclusion: We are not using her statement about propensities--- "Not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity"--- in contradiction of her statements that Christ took the fallen nature of man. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Recommended Posts