Why SDAs Reject the Historic Creeds

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

...Mary was the mother of Jesus, but the Holy Spirit conceived Him.

But Christ clearly had a fully human post fallen body (or nature).

I would like to be clear about where you believe Christ received that fully human post-Fall body and nature which He assumed. In other words, what was the source Christ's flesh? Wasn't that flesh the same as yours and mine and every other child of Adam?*

*Christ took the humanity of His mother, Mary, who had a fallen, sinful nature. Christ took the same flesh that we, fallen, sinful humanity, possess. Christ "accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of HIS EARTHLY ANCESTORS. HE CAME WITH SUCH A HEREDITY..." DA 49;

He had the exact same human body.

With one difference.

In "our" flesh, we have inherited tendencies to sin.

Christ did not have that.

We receive that because our lineage is derived from Adam who adopted Satans character when he rejected God.

Christ did not adopt that element of humanity, because God was His father.

Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So if we were to state that Christ inherited the lusts that we inherit which originated in Satan, (by saying Christ had the experience that James described), then we would be in fact be saying that Christ inherited Satans lusts through Mary.

Many, many Adventists hold to this belief and are totally ignorant that they in fact do believe this.

By stating Jesus had lusts and desires in Him, which tempted Him internally, is indeed saying that He received those lusts and desires from satan.

That is why He is careful to point out the source of "lusts and desire" in humanity. They are from Satan.

When Satan came for Him in Gethsemane, he found nothing in Christ.

Nothing whatsoever to respond to Him.

There was nothing of Satan in Christ.

No sinful lusts or desire.

And there never had been.

Because Christ whilst having a human body, did not have those lusts and desires in His flesh.

[John317]

SOP: "could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {5BC 1128.4}"

But if you read further, you will see that Christ's temptation went beyond those that He experienced in the Wilderness of Temptation.

"Christ was put to the closest test, requiring the strength of all His faculties to resist the inclination when in danger, to use His power to deliver Himself from peril." SDA BC, vol. 7, 930.

That clearly states that Christ had inclinations to do wrong which He had to resist and overcome by the power from God, not by the power that was inherent in His human/divine nature.

[Sonny]

In our flesh we have "lusts and desires" which are in fact "sin" as defined by Paul.

That's true. The primary meaning of indwelling sin (iniquity) is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is the love of self. This condition makes us unfit for heaven even if we never committed a deed of sin. Nevertheless "all have sinned".

However, you can't confuse indwelling sin with transgression. Transgression is a deliberate violation of the law. The reason we transgress is because we have natures that are spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of our nature is the love of self.

At the incarnation, Christ was made what He was not by Divine, the Son of Man. The moment Christ, as a man, was "made flesh" that moment He came under the curse of the law - but not for sinning. He stood condemned because He took our life indwelt with our bent.

For thirty three years Christ had to deal with our bent to self, but He never, even by a single thought, yield to it's desires. This act answered the positive demands of the law - obey and live.

But since He took our humanity, indwelt with our bent to self, He had to take the curse - which is God abandonment - no hope of a resurrection. This act answered the justice of God's law.

Sunday morning God raised Christ with glorified humanity - free from our bent to self. This humanity is fit for heaven. And, as a matter of fact, "we are in Christ in the heavenly places" as we speak - i.e., in heaven is our new humanity that we receive at the 2nd coming.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I would like to be clear about where you believe Christ received that fully human post-Fall body and nature which He assumed. In other words, what was the source Christ's flesh? Wasn't that flesh the same as yours and mine and every other child of Adam?*

He had the exact same human body.

Are you saying then that you agree that Christ received the humanity and the flesh from his mother, Mary, and that He was indeed a literal descendent of Abraham and David?

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

SOP: "could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {5BC 1128.4}"

But if you read further, you will see that Christ's temptation went beyond those that He experienced in the Wilderness of Temptation.

"Christ was put to the closest test, requiring the strength of all His faculties to resist the inclination when in danger, to use His power to deliver Himself from peril." SDA BC, vol. 7, 930.

That clearly states that Christ had inclinations to do wrong which He had to resist and overcome by the power from God, not by the power that was inherent in His human/divine nature.

Those inclinations or "freedom" to choose a course outside of Gods will, were not dependent on Him having the "lusts and desires" in His flesh.

He could have fallen without that.

We know that is true, because Adam fell with the very same conditions.

Adam did not have any heriditary inclinations to sin in Him in Eden, but He did have the option to reject Gods will for Him.

Jesus did not have to have "lusts and desires" to be tempted.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

In our flesh we have "lusts and desires" which are in fact "sin" as defined by Paul.

That's true. The primary meaning of indwelling sin (iniquity) is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is the love of self. This condition makes us unfit for heaven even if we never committed a deed of sin. Nevertheless "all have sinned".

However, you can't confuse indwelling sin with transgression. Transgression is a deliberate violation of the law. The reason we transgress is because we have natures that are spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of our nature is the love of self.

At the incarnation, Christ was made what He was not by Divine, the Son of Man. The moment Christ, as a man, was "made flesh" that moment He came under the curse of the law - but not for sinning. He stood condemned because He took our life indwelt with our bent.

For thirty three years Christ had to deal with our bent to self, but He never, even by a single thought, yield to it's desires. This act answered the positive demands of the law - obey and live.

But since He took our humanity, indwelt with our bent to self, He had to take the curse - which is God abandonment - no hope of a resurrection. This act answered the justice of God's law.

Sunday morning God raised Christ with glorified humanity - free from out bent to self. This humanity is fit for heaven. And, as a matter of fact, "we are in Christ in the heavenly places" as we speak - i.e., our new humanity that we receive at the 2nd coming.

I understand what you are saying Sonny.

But because you place the sin in Christ at the incarnation (which there is no biblical evidence for in my mind), you cannot but end up with the wrong conclusions about Christ and whether He had lusts and desires in Him.

[John317]

Jesus did not have to have "lusts and desires" to be tempted.

I have not said that Christ had "sinful lusts and desires".

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

He had the exact same human body.

Are you saying then that you agree that Christ received the humanity and the flesh from his mother, Mary, and that He was indeed a literal descendent of Abraham and David?

I do not know whether Christ recieved humanity from His mother, or whether the Holy Spirit gave it from scratch.

I have not come to a firm conclusion on that yet, it is an interesting question, which I have only just began to consider.

But the fact is, He did have a fully human post fall body.

Of that I have no doubt.

How that was "created" in Mary's womb, I do not know.

Other than it was an act of the Holy Spirit.

[John317]

I do not know whether Christ recieved humanity from His mother, or whether the Holy Spirit gave it from scratch.

I have not come to a firm conclusion on that yet, it is an interesting question, which I have only just began to consider.

What does this say:

Christ "accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of HIS EARTHLY ANCESTORS. HE CAME WITH SUCH A HEREDITY..." DA 49.

[Sonny]

Christ constantly had to resist the inclination to follow His own will.

That's resisting sin. The will of the Father was to save the fallen race from the curse of the law. In order to do this Christ would have to assume our flesh and take the curse. Our bent to self naturally says "no way" - "I want to live, let them suckers die...."

Here's what Christ had to deal with as He hung on the cross:

Here is a key passage from Desire of Ages, by E.G. White, p 753: “He could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him the coming forth from the grave a conqueror or tell Him of the Father’s acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that their separation was to be eternal.” Do you realize what Christ was tempted to do on the cross as He hung there? The Father had forsaken Him. But remember, He was still God. He could have taken hold of His divinity independent of the Father, against the Father’s wishes, and come down from the cross to save Himself.

That is exactly what the devil tried to get Him to do. In Luke 23:35-39, at least three times the devil approached Christ—once through the Roman soldiers, once through the priests, and once through the thief on the left-hand side. Then, in Matt. 27:35-46, the people also added to that temptation. The temptation was the same, “Come down from the cross and save yourself.” Can you imagine what that temptation was like? We can’t. I’m glad Desire of Ages makes that clear: “The temptation that Christ experienced can never be fully understood by men.... The withdrawal of the Divine Countenance from the Savior in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man.” Ibid.

Do you know why? Because there has been no human being in this world who has really, fully, experienced the wrath of God as Christ did. He is the only man who has experienced the fullness of God-abandonment, which is the equivalent of the second death. Christ was tempted to come down from the cross and save Himself. Can you understand the temptation? The issue He faced was not to screw up His will power and say, “I’ll hold on for a few hours or for three days.” That is no sacrifice for a God who lives in eternity. The issue was good-bye to life forever, never again to see His Father, never again to go back to heaven. It meant to give up His glory, to give up His life. That was the issue. That is the curse of God.

As He hung on the cross experiencing God’s curse for our sins, Jesus had to make a choice. He could not save Himself and the world at the same time. And He did make the supreme choice. He chose to die eternally that you and I may live in His place. That is what transformed the disciples. They were so shocked! They had not understood such love before as this. It is this concept of agape that turned the world upsidedown, that God not only came down for thirty-three years, but Jesus their Savior was willing to say good-bye to life forever that they may live in His place. “But God demonstrated His love that while we were still sinners Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Jesus did not have to have "lusts and desires" to be tempted.

I have not said that Christ had "sinful lusts and desires".

If He was tempted from within, then He must have had sinful lusts and desires John317.

This is the point I am challenging, because this is the point where many Adventists arguments break down.

To say that Christ had the experience that James talks about, is to indeed say that Christ had sinful lusts and desires in Him.

Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

To say the above was Christ's experience, is to indeed say that Christ had "lusts" within Him.

I am arguing against this argument however, not against your position John317, although I do suspect you hold this argument, but I could have misunderstood you.

This argument is so culturally ingrained in SDA thought, that many do not really understand what they are in fact saying.

That may or may not be the case with yourself, that is between you and God. :-)

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

I do not know whether Christ recieved humanity from His mother, or whether the Holy Spirit gave it from scratch.

I have not come to a firm conclusion on that yet, it is an interesting question, which I have only just began to consider.

What does this say:

Christ "accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of HIS EARTHLY ANCESTORS. HE CAME WITH SUCH A HEREDITY..." DA 49.

Interesting statement, I will give it further thought. :-)

[Sonny]

If He was tempted from within, then He must have had sinful lusts and desires John317.

Our nature, with all it's lust and desires, tempted His mind, which was under the control of God's Spirit. Not even for a moment did Christ consent to give into the desires our nature.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Christ constantly had to resist the inclination to follow His own will.

That's resisting sin.

Christ resisted the temptation to become sinful through the consequence of following His own will.

Christ succeeded where Adam failed.

[Sonny]

Christ resisted the temptation to become sinful through the consequence of following His own will.

Why would you be tempted to become sinful if you have a sinless nature? And don't even talk about the fall of Adam. What Adam did was unnatural and can't be explained. It's called the mystery of iniquity. How could a man, indwelt with agape, be tempted to be selfish? There's no answer.

No, Christ came to save us. We are sinners - comprehend? Christ didn't come to save sinless humans, like Adam before the fall. He came to rewrite our history. He came to redeem us within the framework of the law.

The law states that the soul who sins must die. Christ took our humanity at the incarnation. That humanity has our bent-to-self. End of discussion....

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

If He was tempted from within, then He must have had sinful lusts and desires John317.

Our nature, with all it's lust and desires, tempted His mind, which was under the control of God's Spirit. Not even for a moment did Christ consent to give into the desires our nature.

When the sin of humanity was laid on Christ at that cross, the Father withdrew Himself.

Up to that point, Christ had been the spotless lamb of God, with no taint of sin on Him or indeed in Him.

He had no sin in Him.

The lusts and desires we experience were not there.

But once He took that sin upon Himself on the cross, once that sin entered that bruised and beaten body.

Then He became sin for us.

Then His Father forsook Him:

Psa 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring?

Psa 22:2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

Psa 22:3 But thou [art] holy, [O thou] that inhabitest the praises of Israel.

Psa 22:4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.

Psa 22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.

Psa 22:6 But I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

[John317]

To say the above was Christ's experience, is to indeed say that Christ had "lusts" within Him.

Are you sure that isn't an assuption? How about Christ's inclinations to do His own will, which was contrary to the Father's will? Isn't that a temptation from within?

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Christ resisted the temptation to become sinful through the consequence of following His own will.

And don't even talk about the fall of Adam. What Adam did was unnatural and can't be explained. It's called the mystery of iniquity. How could a man, indwelt with agape, be tempted to be selfish? There's no answer.

If you cannot talk about the fall of Adam, you will never understand how Christ was tempted Sonny.

To deem a topic as "unapproachable", when God has given it to us to consider is a very dangerous thing to do.

[Sonny]

When the sin of humanity was laid on Christ at that cross, the Father withdrew Himself.

[Sonny]

If you cannot talk about the fall of Adam, you will never understand how Christ was tempted Sonny.

To deem a topic as "unapproachable", when God has given it to us to consider is a very dangerous thing to do.

Okay. How did Adam sin? Keep in mind Adam was made in the image and likeness of God. His nature was selfless - there was no self-seeking - no bent to self. He, like His creator, lived to serve. That's agape....

[Sonny]

How about Christ's inclinations to do His own will, which was contrary to the Father's will? Isn't that a temptation from within?

Absolutely!

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

To say the above was Christ's experience, is to indeed say that Christ had "lusts" within Him.

Are you sure that isn't an assuption? How about Christ's inclinations to do His own will, which was contrary to the Father's will? Isn't that a temptation from within?

That is the same experience Adam had.

But it was not "driven" by hereditary tendencies to sin, just as Adam was not driven by such.

The appeal was external.

Lust and Desire first formed in Satan when he beheld himself and took pride.

But it did not "enter" Adam, until he consented to it.

Then that "inheritance" was passed on to the human race.

Christ did not recieve those lusts and desires.

He started from Adams pre-fallen position.

But He did have free will to choice to depart from Gods leadership, just as Adam did.

That would have been sin.

Then and only then would sin have entered Him and He would have failed.

The consequence of that would have been unimaginable...

But of course Christ did eventually experience those lusts and desires when the sin of the world was placed on Him and in Him at the cross.

Then He had more than enough lusts and desires to contend with.

Ours...

And it caused His Father to turn His face from Him.

How could Christ have walked the earth, fully connected to God, with sin in Him? :-)

[Sonny]

The appeal was external.

No, there's no appeal in a sinless human. You can't be tempted by evil. Keep in mind Adam was made in God's image. He was indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Adam's mind was in perfect harmony with his holy, selfless nature.

James 1:13 For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone

Since Adam's nature was in complete harmony with God's nature, Adam couldn't be tempted by sin. In fact He didn't know the meaning of sin. Then how did Adam sin? You can't answer that....

We will have to wait.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

If you cannot talk about the fall of Adam, you will never understand how Christ was tempted Sonny.

To deem a topic as "unapproachable", when God has given it to us to consider is a very dangerous thing to do.

Okay. How did Adam sin? Keep in mind Adam was made in the image and likeness of God. His nature was selfless - there was no self-seeking - no bent to self. He, like His creator, lived to serve. That's agape....

Ellen White:

Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. Our only definition of sin is that given in the word of God; it is "the transgression of the law;" it (sin) is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love (agape) which is the foundation of the divine government. [GC 29]

[miz3]

"your old life was crucified with" Christ.

Thank you Sonny, because did you notice what you quote above takes place at the Cross, NOT the Incarnation.

The Cross Sonny, the Cross!