Dr. Rich Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Yes Miz3, exactly! As for Jesus' death, it was to pay the penalty for Adam's sin, which would have been the 'second' death. Therefore Jesus did pay this penalty and you too can benefit from this but only IF you do as Jesus did, and that is overcome sin (Re. 3:4-5) This also means to get rid of all of the lies you now believe because of Paul's and EGW's words, repent and sin follow after the real truth, that being the words of Jesus alone.
miz3 Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 What is your main problem concerning sin? You have a humanity, indwelt with iniquity, that is self-seeking and looks out for its own self. This humanity must die forever. It is useless...If it had the chance it would take God off His throne. Here is where you are wrong! Our problem is not our humanity. Humanity is not of itself evil. Sin is what is evil. Sin polluted our humanity. So it is the sin within us that is the problem. The problem is not our humanity. Sonny, you are making our humanity the problem and that is not the problem. Like I said and repeat again, SIN IS THE PROBLEM! Because this is true, God placed our sin on Jesus Christ on the Cross. God did not place our humanity on Jesus Christ, only our sin. This is a very simple Gospel and it is the Bible Gospel!
Dr. Rich Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 WayneV, lets not beat around the bush on this subject. I am really tired of all of the tap dancing, twisting and nonsense associated with the spin doctors for Paul's words. Paul said there were two Gospels--period! His and the one of Jesus that the disciples were teaching! Period! If you do not believe this, the do your own research on this and you will find that the jest of Pau's gospel is saved by grace thru the righteousness by faith. Now go read the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses and see IF you can find any hint of this same gospel??? You can't! Jesus didn't pull any punches so IF His gospel would, in any way, be the same as Paul's, then Jesus would have said the same thing. But He didn't! What He did is warn us about Paul's words---many times! Here, allow me to prove my point: IF Paul's words are NOT the seeds of the weeds (tares) that were planted after Jesus left this earth, then PLEASE someone, show me where I can find those seeds! Make sure the look like the real thing (wheat) all the way from when the NT was given until right NOW, just before Jesus comes! The only thing that fits is Paul's words being the seeds of the weeds! God allowed Satan to have Paul's words in the NT just as He allowed Satan in the Garden East of Eden.
Sonny Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 This is where we differ. I don't care "how". And hence you are open to being deceived by "another gospel".
Sonny Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Sonny, Christ did NOT die the second death Sure He did, but you can't see it because you reject the gospel
Sonny Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 The Bible says nothing about uniting with Mary's humanity in any way! You are adding that to the Scripture. Heb 10:5 ...when he (the Son of God) comes into the world, he says, You (God the Father) had no desire for offerings, but you made a body ready for me (i.e., my Deity) Now what's this body prepared for Christ? Romans 7:4 ..."you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ Rom 6:6 ..."our old self [i.e., our humanity] was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with".... Clearly, the body Christ assumed as the Son of God, was "our old self" or, as Paul states in Romans 7:4 "You" died in Christ. Who is the "you"? Well, we are told that when "One died, all died". So the "you" is all of us. What are we? We are fallen, sinful humans indwelt by sin. That died "in Christ". That's clear as a sunny day. To reject it is to deny the gospel!
Moderators John317 Posted June 22, 2011 Author Moderators Posted June 22, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny Keep also in mind that the Trinity is neither male nor female. They are Spirit. So it wasn't anything to do with procreation. All we know is the Holy Spirit, who is God, mysteriously united Christ's Deity with the humanity from Mary's womb. It doesn't explain how the sperm was combined with Mary's egg or how the Holy Spirit united Christ's Deity to this egg & sperm. That's not for us to know apparently The Bible says nothing about uniting with Mary's humanity in any way! You are adding that to the Scripture. Wasn't Christ altogether human? If Jesus Christ's humanity was not united with Mary's, it is impossible to see how Jesus was a descendant of Adam, Abraham, Jacob, and David. But we know He was. His favorite name for Himself was "the Son of man." He was a real man. How could Jesus be a real man if He wasn't related to any other human beings on the face of the earth? The only way He could be related to other humans was through His mother, Mary. Jesus says that He is "the Offspring of David" (Rev. 22: 16), and Romans 1: 3 also tells us that as to His human nature, He was a descendent of David. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 John317, There is no genealogy for Mary. The genealogy always came through the Male entity. Since Joseph contributed no sperm to the incarnation then Joseph's genealogy is only a matter of legality and not a matter of heredity (genetically). No human DNA from Joseph or Mary. The Bible explicitly states that Jesus Christ was conceived ONLY BY THE HOLY SPIRIT! The Bible purposefully left out Mary's genealogy because of this fact! Thus, Jesus Christ was a descendent of Adam, Abraham, Jacob, and David only in the LEGAL sense and NOT in the genetic sense! All this is Biblical. See Matthew!
miz3 Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Sonny, It is still the sin that is the problem. God came to remove the sin (that is what the Bible says including Paul). God did not come to remove humanity! God placed our sins on Jesus Christ. God did NOT place our humanity on Jesus Christ! Sin may have ruined humanity but that does not make humanity the problem. Sin, sin, sin, is the problem!
miz3 Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Heb 10:5 ...when he (the Son of God) comes into the world, he says, You (God the Father) had no desire for offerings, but you made a body ready for me (i.e., my Deity) The body spoken of here is a reference to: 1. The OUTER BODY of Jesus Christ. 2. This OUTER BODY was conceived ONLY by the Holy Spirit. No human DNA was involved at all! It is also a false connection you then make from this clear statement about Christ's OUTER BODY to the Romans chapter seven text.
miz3 Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Quote: Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3 So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man. 4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Romans 7:1-6. Now Sonny lets look at this text in context. 1. Your Hebrews chapter ten text was talking about Jesus Christ's OUTER BODY! That is just plain and simple Truth! 2. Romans chapter seven verses one through three are illustrating how the marriage can be broken by the death of one partner. 3. Paul is referring to the marriage we have with the "sinful nature". 4. The time period Paul is talking about is the Cross. Hebrews chapter ten is referring to the Incarnation. These are two completely different events. No connection here! On this basis alone you cannot link these two texts to each other. But there is more. 5. In verse four Paul tells us God placed our sins (not our humanity or anything else, JUST SINS) on Jesus Christ! 6. By placing our sins on Jesus Christ at the Cross God separated us from our marriage to the "sinful nature". In other words our "sinful nature" was killed on the Cross (not before) and as such we are now free to marry some else. 7. God then married us (humans) to Himself because we were no longer married to anyone else. 8. In verse six Paul states that the Law has now been satisfied. 9. The Law was not satisfied at the Incarnation, the Law was not satisfied at the Temptation! NO! The Law was satisfied only at the Cross! YES! 10. This text, Romans 7:1-6. Is in no way shape or form linked to the Hebrews chapter 10 verse five text you cited earlier. These two texts Hebrews chapter 10:5 and Romans chapter 7:1-6 are talking about two different things. Again, Sonny you are misusing the Scripture! [Words deleted by the moderator.]
Gustave Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Miz3, the genealogy going back to David comes through Mary... ...This can be proven without much difficulty. ...I'm convinced that Jesus' DNA would have shown a match to both Mary and David. On the other thing about Jesus being a conditional god I agree with you.... ....It is nothing short of blasphemy.
miz3 Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Gustave, I guess you and I could argue the genealogy thing but I think no matter what would happen we would end up agreeing to disagree. So I will leave that aside. However, I find the "conditional god" so prevalent on this thread utterly abhorrent. There is no Biblical evidence for such a Doctrine. The only way to come to such an unBiblical conclusion of a sin-polluted christ for SDA is through the opinions of Ellen White. Sonny has certainly "tried" to make such a case through the Bible only but it is clear that he has NOT SUCCEEDED! Sonny is using Jack S.'s writings and point of view to make his case. However, it does not matter who is trying to make it through the Bible and the Bible only, Jack S.'s case cannot be made. Again, the only way for SDA to conclude that a sin-polluted christ who could have sinned and been eternally lost is through the Opinions of Ellen White. In this matter Ellen White is not supported by Scripture.
WayneV Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 WayneV, lets not beat around the bush on this subject. I am really tired of all of the tap dancing, twisting and nonsense associated with the spin doctors for Paul's words. Paul said there were two Gospels--period! His and the one of Jesus that the disciples were teaching! Period! WayneV Just remember these words of warning, for they will come to pass all too soon: If you are ever flying through the desert and your canoe breaks down, remember that it takes three pancakes to lift the doghouse, because there ain't nary a bone in ice cream!
Moderators John317 Posted June 22, 2011 Author Moderators Posted June 22, 2011 John317, There is no genealogy for Mary. What was the source of Jesus Christ's body and heredity? Was not Christ subject to the same laws of heredity that all other humans are subject to? In all probability, Mary was of the same tribe (Judah) as Joseph and hence was also a descendent of King David. (See #4 and #15 below) Originally Posted By: miz3 Thus, Jesus Christ was a descendent of Adam, Abraham, Jacob, and David only in the LEGAL sense and NOT in the genetic sense! If Jesus was not of the lineage of David, He wasn't the fulfillment of prophecy, and hence was not the true Messiah. Here is what God (who cannot lie) promised in regard to the Messiah: 1) "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and HER SEED [the Messiah]; He [Eve's seed] shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His [Eve's seed] heel." Gen. 3: 15 Here in the first promise of the Messiah, it is stated that He would come out of the woman's body. The Messiah would be a descendent of Adam and Eve. 2) "The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me FROM YOUR MIDST, FROM YOUR BRETHREN. Him you shall hear... I [the Lord] will raise up for them a Prophet like you FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN, and will put My words in His mouth..." Deut. 18: 15, 18 (cf Acts 7: 37) The Messiah will come from the Jews. (It does not say that the Messiah will appear "among" "your brethren," but that He will be raised up "from your brethren.") 3) THE LORD HAS SWORN IN TRUTH TO DAVID; HE WILL NOT TURN FROM IT: I WILL SET UPON YOUR THRONE THE FRUIT OF YOUR BODY." Ps. 132: 11. Here the Lord swears to David that the Messiah will be the "fruit of David's body." This can only mean a literal descendant of David. 4) "There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots." Is. 11: 1 "And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, who shall stand as a banner to the people, for the Gentiles shall seek Him, and His resting place shall be glorious." Is. 11: 10. "Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord, "That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper..." (Jer. 23: 5; cf. Ezek. 17: 22; Daniel 2: 4.) "...behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the BRANCH..." Zech. 3: 8 Notice in the above the words "branch," "rod," "stem," and "root." All these words refer to the Messiah's being the Davidic descendent-- "the fruit of David's body"-- who will function as God's ultimate servant. 5) "Behold the Man, whose name is the BRANCH! From His place He shall branch out... So He shall be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace shall be between them both." Zech. 6: 12, 13. Notice here that the Messiah will be a "priest." As Hebrews 2: 17 says, it is necessary for a high priest to be like His brethren. Notice, also, that Hebrews 5: 1 tells us that High Priests are "taken from among men" and "appointed for men in things pertaining to God." Heb. 4: 15 to 5: 2, 4; & Heb. 7: 28 shows why it's essential for the high priest to be "taken from among men,"-- so that He can sympathize with our weaknesses and understand what it means to be tempted, that He might give us the help we need. (Compare #14) 6) The book of the geneaology of Jesus Christ, the Son [descendant] of David, the Son [descendant] of Abraham..." Matt. 1: 1 7) "But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under law..." Gal. 4: 4 "Born of a woman" refers to the fact that Christ was a human being. It takes us back to the promise in Gen. 3: 15, that the Messiah would come out of a woman, i.e, be descended from Adam and Eve. 8) "But there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus..." 1 Tim. 2: 5. This verse tells us plainly that Jesus Christ is a human being at this time-- long after His ascension to heaven as our High Priest. 9)Jesus refers to Himself as the "Son of man." Matt. 9: 6. This is the same as "the Son of Adam," and was Christ's favorite name for Himself. He loved the thought of coming here as a descendant of Adam to stand at the Head of all mankind and rescue us from eternal death. 10) "Jesus of Nazareth, a Man [lit. "male; Gk. aner] attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst..." Acts 2: 22. 11) "Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, 'And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one,'And to your Seed,' who is Christ." Gal. 3: 16. (Compare 3: 19) Notice that the word "seed" in the above is the Greek word "sperma," i.e., sperm. The Messiah was to come from Abraham's sperm, or literal descendants. As Gen.: 15 and Ps. 132: 11 teach, the Messiah would come out of the woman (Eve) and out of the body of David. 12) "But one of the elders said to me, 'Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.'" Rev. 5: 5. Again, we see that the Messiah is identified as the descendant of David. He has the right to open the seals dealing with human history because He is a human being who has conquered sin an Satan. (Compare Rev. 5:9) 13) "I am the the root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star." Rev. 22: 16. When we compare all of the above with Rev. 22: 16, it is clear that Christ's identification of Himself as the "root and the Offspring of David" is more than a legal descent from David but it is a literal descent. As Ps. 132: 11 teaches, the Messiah would be from the body of David. He would be a real man subject to the same laws of heredity that all other humans must deal with. 14) Christ is not ashamed to call us His brothers. He partakes of the same flesh and blood as we have. In fact, He had to be made like His brothers in all things in order to be a faithful High Priest. Heb. 2: 11, 14, 17. (Compare #5) Jesus is indeed our "elder Brother." We have an elder brother on the throne of God in heaven, one who knows by experience what it is like to live as a real human being, and deal with sin and temptations, on this earth. In order to be our "elder brother," He must be of our flesh and blood by inheritance-- that is to say, Christ must be the fruit of David's body, and not merely a legal descendant. 15) "It is evident that our Lord arose from Judah..." Heb. 7: 14. (Compare #4) If Christ was merely a legal descendant of Judah, it wouldn't be necessary to say that Christ would be the fruit of David's body. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted June 22, 2011 Author Moderators Posted June 22, 2011 ... the genealogy going back to David comes through Mary......This can be proven without much difficulty. ...I'm convinced that Jesus' DNA would have shown a match to both Mary and David. I believe you're right. See the previous post just before this one. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted June 22, 2011 Author Moderators Posted June 22, 2011 ...However, I find the "conditional god" so prevalent on this thread utterly abhorrent. There is no Biblical evidence for such a Doctrine. The only way to come to such an unBiblical conclusion of a sin-polluted christ for SDA is through the opinions of Ellen White. ....Again, the only way for SDA to conclude that a sin-polluted christ who could have sinned and been eternally lost is through the Opinions of Ellen White. In this matter Ellen White is not supported by Scripture. I am glad you make it clear you reject the Testimonies. That way people can know where you stand. It is better than falsely claiming to accept her as a genuine prophet. The fact that you claim that SDAs teach a "sin-polluted christ" is enough to show that you are either not thinking clearly or else you are deliberately accusing Seventh-day Adventists of holding a teaching we do not hold at all. I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are not thinking-- which is preferable to assuming you are doing the other. By claiming that Ellen White is including her opinions in the Testimonies For the Church, you are really saying that you believe Ellen White was lying-- because she herself denied that she wrote her opinions as if they were God's messages. No genuine prophet of God would do such a thing, particularly when it involves a major teaching. Besides, I'm convinced that the Bible does in fact support what Ellen White said on this topic. I doubt you are seeing it straight, however, since you claim that SDAs and Ellen White teach "a sin-polluted christ," something that is completely false. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Twilight II Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II If we do not understand how Christ overcame, we will never understand how we are to overcome. This teaching is vital to victory in Christ. Yes, it is. And how did Christ resist temptation and overcome? Isn't Christ our model in resisting sin and overcoming? Did Christ overcome as the man of Rom 7:14-25. Or the man of Rom 8 John317?
Twilight II Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 If SDA's teach that Jesus had the Rom 7:14-25 experience, which many are doing right here on this board John. Then they are indeed teaching Christ was sin-polluted and miz3 is right in his obvservations. I understand fully where he is coming from.
Twilight II Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Do you hold Andreasen as an authority Sky? You quoted him without explaining why you quoted him.
miz3 Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 What was the source of Jesus Christ's body and heredity? Was not Christ subject to the same laws of heredity that all other humans are subject to? In all probability, Mary was of the same tribe (Judah) as Joseph and hence was also a descendent of King David. (See #4 and #15 below) 1. The source of Jesus Christ's body was the Holy Spirit! 2. NO! At least not genetically. 3. NOT KNOWN! Besides the heredity in the Jewish system was ALWAYS counted on the Father's side, never on the mother's side.
Sonny Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Wasn't Christ altogether human? If Jesus Christ's humanity was not united with Mary's, it is impossible to see how Jesus was a descendant of Adam, Abraham, Jacob, and David. Absolutely correct. And I'll tell you something else, Ellen White had to have light from God on this subject. Also Jones & Waggoner. So while I do not think she had all light when she passed on, she had tremendous light when it comes to the truth as it is in Christ.
miz3 Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Quote: 1) "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and HER SEED [the Messiah]; He [Eve's seed] shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His [Eve's seed] heel." Gen. 3: 15 NO! NO! NO! God was speaking to Adam and so this text is: 1. NOT Eve's seed at all! Nothing in the text or the context of the passage either directly or by inference points to Eve! 2. It is referring to Adam's seed! Paul confirms this in Romans. 3. As a Bible student you should know that the "woman" of Genesis 3:15 is not the woman "Eve". It is the "woman of God's People", what Paul and others describe as "His Bride". There is no way this is talking about Eve.
miz3 Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Quote: THE LORD HAS SWORN IN TRUTH TO DAVID; HE WILL NOT TURN FROM IT: I WILL SET UPON YOUR THRONE THE FRUIT OF YOUR BODY." Ps. 132: 11. Here the Lord swears to David that the Messiah will be the "fruit of David's body." This can only mean a literal descendant of David. You are stretching this. It is not possible because none of Joseph's sperm was in Marry in regards to Jesus Christ. So no brethren's sperm was used. Besides as we have said before Matthew chapter one states that the Holy Spirit was the only One involved in the Incarnation.
Sonny Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Sin, sin, sin, is the problem! David was “shapen in iniquity” from his very birth. This was his spiritual condition since physically he was handsome [1 Samuel 16:12]. The primary meaning of iniquity is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2]. It is this condition that is the basis of all our sinning.... Since all men are born spiritually “bent” (shapen in iniquity), it is not difficult to see what Romans 3:10, 12 says: there is none righteous and no one who does good. Man’s sinful condition makes it impossible for him to do anything but sin, unless he has a Savior.... Christ took on our bent and after thirty something years of constantly defeating our bent to self, Christ took our humanity to the grave. You see our nature...our bent...is not restricted to a certain area of our bodies. It has permeated the whole human organism, as EGW states. That's why your humanity from Adam had to die in Christ. Sunday morning Christ was raised with a glorified humanity free from every trace of sin. We are Sons of God "in Christ"
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