Why SDAs Reject the Historic Creeds

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

But he was tempted externally and did sin.

This is the same way Jesus was tempted.

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are --yet was without sin.

Who is the "we"? Folks before the fall or after the fall?

Answer: After!

So Christ was tempted as we are tempted: from within!

Right on! What you have just stated is the doctrine of Christ as opposed to the doctrine of antichrist.

Jesus the man was tempted just as we are, from within and from without, and yet did not commit sin. This is the mystery of godliness.

sky

[Twilight II]

Though He took our sinful flesh He knew no sin, He did not commit sin.

If you own a copy of "Lessons on Faith" you will find lectures by A.T. Jones explaining this very clearly.

sky

That is not what it says Sky. :-)

It says:

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

We are asking a simple question.

Did Christ have sin "in" Him?

The bible says very plainly that He didn't.

Its a simple question with a simple answer.

Mark :-)

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

But he was tempted externally and did sin.

This is the same way Jesus was tempted.

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are --yet was without sin.

Who is the "we"? Folks before the fall or after the fall?

Answer: After!

So Christ was tempted as we are tempted: from within!

No Sonny.

It says Christ is tempted the same as we are tempted.

By Satan.

Externally.

As can be seen in the experience of Christ during the 40 days in the wilderness.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

It does not state that at one point He had sin in Him, but now He doesn't.

You have to read the context, and here's the best argument:

"But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin."

When did He appear? At the incarnation. How did He take away our sins?

Romans 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.

6 For we know that our old life was crucified with him

why?

So that the body of sin (humanity indwelt with sin) might be done away with!

When Christ's humanity, indwelt with sin, died YOU died too! Are you a sinner or a holy joe? Answer: Sinner.

So when Christ died - you died - because Christ took YOU into Himself. Stop fighting the gospel!

When Christ died, my old man was crucified with Him.

No problem with that at all Sonny.

But that is not what we are talking about here.

We are dealing with this idea that there was a "Time Limit" to when it could have been said of Christ:

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

In fact if you are going to use a Time Limit type argument then consider verse 5 as the context.

It points to when He was manifested to take away our sins.

So you could argue that that was at the incarnation of Christ, or the crucifixion of Christ.

But the point is clear, that at that same time, Christ had no "sin in Him".

So using your own argument we can see that Christ did not have a sinful moral and spiritual nature like we do during the time that the context of the verse supplies.

[John317]

...In Romans there is never a time when an individual is ever free to choose.....The person is never, ever free to choose.

In order to choose an entity must be free!(no master). No where in the Bible are persons independently free to choose. They may be liberated from one master to serve another master but they are never ever independently free without any master.

A human is always a slave to something and never ever free!

If people aren't free to choose, the Bible wouldn't tell people to choose whom they will serve. Sin is a choice-- no one can be forced to sin.

Judas chose to betray Christ. Jonah chose to get on a boat going to Spain. Moses chose to kill the Egyptian. Cain chose to kill his brother Abel. The people of Sodom chose to do try and break down Lot's door.

I think you're confused over the issue of what it means to be free to choose. It's true that we are either a slave of Satan or of God, but God frees us so that we can choose to serve Him freely. It's like the slave in Exodus 21: 5,6 who voluntarily chooses to serve His master.

God doesn't get any pleasure out of worship that is not freely and intelligently given.

Romans 6: 19 appeals to Christians to "present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness." Clearly, then, believers are free to choose to present their members to serve the Lord. We have a choice to make. We can either continue to serve Satan or we can choose to present our members to serve God. The fact that we are either serving Satan or God doesn't mean we aren't free to choose one or the other.

Satan takes our freedom from us, whereas God gives us our freedom. To be a slave of Satan means to destroy ourselves, but to be a slave of God means to fulfill the potential for which God created us.

[Twilight II]

"Do not forget, either, that the mystery of God is not God manifest in sinless flesh, but God manifest in sinful flesh. There could never be any mystery about God's manifesting Himself in sinless flesh--in one who had no connection whatever with sin. That would be plain enough. But that He can manifest Himself in flesh laden with sin and with all the tendencies to sin, such as ours is--that is a mystery. Yea, it is the mystery of God. And it is a glorious fact, thank the Lord! Believe it. And before all the world, and for the joy of every person in the world, in Jesus Christ He has demonstrated that this great mystery is indeed a fact in human experience. For "as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same."

"In all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren." And therefore God "made him to be sin for us." "He hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." Thus, in our flesh, having our nature laden with iniquity and Himself made to be sin, Christ Jesus lived in this world, tempted in all points like as we are and yet God always caused Him to triumph in Him and made manifest the savor of His knowledge by Him in every place. Thus God was manifest in the flesh--in our flesh, in human flesh laden with sin--and made to be sin in itself, weak and tempted as ours is. And thus the mystery of God was made known to all nations for the obedience of the faith. O, believe it!

And this is the mystery of God today and forever--God manifest in the flesh, in human flesh, in flesh, laden with sin, tempted and tried. In this flesh God will make manifest the knowledge of Himself in every place where the believer is found. Believe it and praise His holy name!" A.T. Jones, Lessons on Faith, R&H, Sept.29,1896.

sky

I intend no disrespect Sky, but I do not build my doctrinal position on the writings of Jones.

In this instance, we have the writings of the apostle John as the basis of the discussion.

A commentary (opinion) from someone else, does not negate the plain force of John's statement;

1Jo 3:5 ...in him is no sin.

[Twilight II]

Right on! What you have just stated is the doctrine of Christ as opposed to the doctrine of antichrist.

sky

The Pharisees accused Jesus of being inspired by satan when He wouldn't agree with them Sky...

How is calling anothers point of view "anti-Christ" because it is different to ones own, any better than that?

[skyblue888]

"In Him is no sin" does not mean that He came in holy flesh for that is the doctrine of antichrist. If He came in "holy flesh" how can it be said that he was tempted in all points like as we are?

The truth is that Christ lived a sinless life in sinful flesh.

Now that is what "In Him is no sin" means.

For we know what the Scripture says, "Concerning His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who was made of the seed of David according to the flesh." Rom.1:3.

This is said regarding His human descent. David had sinful flesh or holy flesh? Sinful flesh.

This is the only kind of flesh known in this world and Christ partook of the same yet without sinning.

sky

[Twilight II]

"In Him is no sin" does not mean that He came in holy flesh for that is the doctrine of antichrist. If He came in "holy flesh" how can it be said that he was tempted in all points like as we are?

The truth is that Christ lived a sinless life in sinful flesh.

Now that is what "In Him is no sin" means.

For we know what the Scripture says, "Concerning His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who was made of the seed of David according to the flesh." Rom.1:3.

This is said regarding His human descent. David had sinful flesh or holy flesh? Sinful flesh.

This is the only kind of flesh known in this world and Christ partook of the same yet without sinning.

sky

You are not understanding what is being said Sky.

Christ came with a fallen human body.

But He did not come with a fallen moral and spiritual nature.

He came with a mans body and Gods moral and spiritual nature.

This text leaves no other choice:

1Jo 3:5 ...in him is no sin.

Remember, we are discussing whether Christ had sin in Him.

That is the question.

And the answer is plain.

Now many SDA's have imbibed this teaching on the points of texts dealing with temptation, that it indicates Christ had a fallen nature, but that is not so.

Now consider this my friend.

If you are wrong on this point, then you are labelling the truth of the scripture as "anti-Christ".

I personally would not be so quick as to be waving that sword around so freely.

Because if this is true, and I see no scriptural reason for it not to be true, you are in fact blaspheming the Holy Spirit and His work.

Step off of that ground brother, it is not yours to claim.

Mark

[Sonny]

Did Christ have sin "in" Him?

The bible says very plainly that He didn't.

No, you are twisting. This is speaking of Him after the resurrection. If not, then the Bible contradicts itself over and over. You must look at the big picture:

1] Jesus is God. He has always been God - there was never a time when He wasn't. He is self-existing.

2] At the incarnation, the Holy Spirit, mysteriously blended Christ's Divinity with our fallen, life from Adam. This all happened in Mary's womb.

3] By linking Himself to our humanity, Christ rewrote our history. He is the 2nd Adam. He defeated our bent-to-self. Hence He obeyed the law perfectly.

4] At the cross our life from Adam, that was in Christ, died forever. That humanity has in it the sin nature.

5] At the resurrection God raised Christ, as the Son of Man, with a glorified humanity indwelt with a sinless nature.

6] This life He presents before His Father's law. We are complete "in Him"

7] Those who reject this gospel come under the law. And under law you can kiss your butt goodbye!

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Did Christ have sin "in" Him?

The bible says very plainly that He didn't.

No, you are twisting. This is speaking of Him after the resurrection. If not, then the Bible contradicts itself over and over. You must look at the big picture:

We have already dealt with this Sonny.

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

If you are going to use a time line argument here to state that Christ only had "no sin in Him", after His ascenscion, then you are ignoring the first part of this verse.

He was manifested when?

That is the only reference to time in this text.

He was manifested at the birth or the cross.

Which makes the statement "in him is no sin", applicable to either of those two events.

Mark :-)

[Sonny]

Christ came with a fallen human body.

Dude, Twilight. There's only one type of fallen human body:

Romans 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh (in my humanity);.... 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do, but I do the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. ....23... I see a different law (where?) in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

Again, only one type of humanity that needs redeeming. The only thing is that Christ, as the Son of Man, never had the experience of verse 19,20 & 23.

[Sonny]

We have already dealt with this Sonny.

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Yes, it all began at the incarnation, but "indwelling sin" wasn't removed until the resurrection. Of course at death it ceased to exist too....

Why do you fight Christ taking upon Himself our sinful nature? What's your problem?

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Christ came with a fallen human body.

Dude, Twilight. There's only one type of fallen human body:

Indeed.

But the spiritual and moral nature within that body can differ between the Carnal person and the Born Again Believer...

New birth results in this.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

We have already dealt with this Sonny.

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Yes, it all began at the incarnation, but "indwelling sin" wasn't removed until the resurrection. Of course at death it ceased to exist too....

[skyblue888]

Now many SDA's have imbibed this teaching on the points of texts dealing with temptation, that it indicates Christ had a fallen nature, but that is not so.

Mark

___________________________________

Mark, you are now teaching that Christ came in holy flesh!!!

"The angels prostrated themselves before Him. They offered their lives. Jesus said to them that He would by His death save many, that the life of an angel cojuld not pay the debt. His life alone could be accepted as of His Father as a ransom for man. Jesus also told them that they would have a part to act, to be with Him and at different times strengthen Him; that He would take man's fallen nature, and His strength would not be equal with theirs..." Early Writings, p.150.

"Satan again rejoiced with his angels that he could, by causing man's fall, pull down the Son of God from His exalted position. He told his angels that when Jesus should take man's fallen nature, he could overpower Him and hinder the accomplishment of the plan of salvation." Ibid, 152.

sky

[Sonny]

But the spiritual and moral nature within that body can differ between the Carnal person and the Born Again Believer...

New birth results in this.

Dude, fallen mankind does not have a moral nature. He has a self-serving nature. There's nothing...absolutely nothing good in fallen mankind.

After one is born again we have two natures. The nature of God and the nature of Adam, the transgressor. Our fallen nature doesn't improve. It's rotten.

[Sonny]

So the context of the text is either from the incarnation or the cross.

So the statement that "in him is no sin", has to be applied to the context already provided.

When He was here on earth before His ascencion.

Not an issue....Christ had a glorified human nature after the resurrection. He didn't directly go to heaven. You know that.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Why do you fight Christ taking upon Himself our sinful nature? What's your problem?

I do not think is biblical is this idea that Christ had a sinful moral and spiritual nature.

But other than that you don't have a problem it?

[skyblue888]

The Bible indentifies between the doctrine of Christ and the doctrine of antichrist. The doctrine of Christ regarding the human nature of Christ is that He took upon His divine nature our sinful nature. But the doctrine of antichrist is that Christ took upon His divine nature the sinless flesh of Adam, holy flesh.

It is not about accusing anyone of anything. We are only discussing the two doctrines.

sky

[skyblue888]

I do not think is biblical is this idea that Christ had a sinful moral and spiritual nature.

Mark

________________________________

On His divine side He was that "holy thing" but on His human side He was like us, sinful and yet He did no sin.

sky

[Sonny]

The Bible indentifies between the doctrine of Christ and the doctrine of antichrist. The doctrine of Christ regarding the human nature of Christ is that He took upon His divine nature our sinful nature. But the doctrine of antichrist is that Christ took upon His divine nature the sinless flesh of Adam, holy flesh.

It is not about accusing anyone of anything. We are only discussing the two doctrines.

sky

Bingo!

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Now of course I don't believe these guys are anti-Christ. They just can't see....I didn't always understand the gospel, I wish I had. It would have saved my family and myself from legalism.

2 cor 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God

[John317]

Remember, we are discussing whether Christ had sin in Him.

That is the question.

And the answer is plain.

Now many SDA's have imbibed this teaching on the points of texts dealing with temptation, that it indicates Christ had a fallen nature, but that is not so.

There's a big difference between Christ's being born with a fallen nature and His having sin in Him. Seventh-day Adventist are not arguing that Christ had sin in Him.

Christ took our sinful nature on Himself but NOT our sinfulness.

As Ellen White says, "He took upon Himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin." YI 12/20/1900

"He was to take His position at the head of humanity by taking the nature but not the sinfulness of man." (ST 5/29/1901)

"Christ assumed OUR FALLEN NATURE, and was subject to every temptation to which man is subject." Ms. 80, 1903 (Quoted on page 136 of The Word Was Made Flesh, Ralph Larson.)

The following is found on page 174 of Bible Readings (editions 1914, 1935, 1942):

"In His humanity Christ partook of our sinful, fallen nature. If not, then He was not 'made like unto His brethren,' was not 'in all points tempted like as we are,' did not overcome as we have to overcome, and is not, therefore, the complete and perfect Saviour man needs and must have to be saved. The idea that Christ was born of an immaculate or sinless mother, inherited no tendencies to sin, and for this reason did not sin, removes Him from the realm of a fallen world, and from the very place where help is needed. On His human side, Christ inherited just what every child of Adam inherits,-- a sinful nature. On divine side, from His very conception He was begotten and born of the Spirit. And all this was done to place mankind on vantage-ground, and to demonstrate that in the same way every one who is 'born of the Spirit' may gain like victories over sin in his own sinful flesh. Thus each one is to overcome as Christ overcame. Rev. 3: 21. Without this birth there can be no victory ovedr temptation, and no salvation from sin.' John 3: 3-7."

Notice that this is what Bible Readings contained during Ellen White's lifetime.

Ellen White agreed with it. She herself stated, "The great work of redemption could be carried out only by the Redeemer taking the place of fallen Adam." RH Feb. 24, 1874.

Notice the SDA church's official statement of its beliefs in the Seventh-day Adventist Source Book For Bible Students (1919):

"The Scripture teaches that Jesus, when born of woman, assumed sinful flesh (Heb. 2: 14; Romans 8: 3), and thus became united with man in his fallen condition.... the very essence of Christianity being the experience, 'Christ in you, the hope of glory,' it thus appears that the dogma of the immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary strikes at the very heart of Christianity." Page 220.

[Sonny]

"He was to take His position at the head of humanity by taking the nature but not the sinfulness of man." (ST 5/29/1901)

The sinfulness of mankind is well defined in Eph chapter two:

"we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind...."

Notice that the sinfulness of man is where the mind and the desires of the flesh (human nature) are in agreement.

Christ never experienced this. He was born as we are converted. That means that Christ was born spiritually alive. And that means that His mind/heart was under the full control of God's Spirit and therefore our human nature never got its way. Hence He never sinned, not even by a thought.

[John317]

That's exactly right. So it is wrong of anyone to accuse SDAs or anyone on this Forum of arguing that Christ had sin in Him. Assuming the fallen or sinful nature of mankind is not the same as having sin in Him.