miz3 Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 It's the Cross, Sonny, the Cross. Everything revolves around the Cross!
Twilight II Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 3] So at the incarnation God placed your life from Adam into Christ. In other words he put YOU into Christ. He combined Christ's Deity with your fallen life. Our old nature was passed to Christ (our sinful nature), at the cross. This was when the Father withdrew Himself. Our new nature was suppled after Christ ascended to heaven. This is what the sanctuary teaches. The sin transferred at the sacrifice, not before.
Twilight II Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Sonny, The main issue is that you keep insisting that Jesus Christ had a "sinful nature" like you and I. That is: SIMPLY NOT BIBLICAL! Not biblical !!!??? Try Rom.1:3. sky Indeed Christ had a "human" body. But He had no sin "IN" Him. John is clear on that: 1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whereas in contrast we are different because we have sin in us: Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not. Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Rom 1:3 states that Christ had a "flesh", but it does not state that there was sin "IN" that flesh.
Twilight II Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 Rom 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David The only type of human nature is sinful human nature. Paul calls it "the law of sin" (the power of sin). I have asked you this before. What "human nature" did Adam have before the Fall? This forced definition of "human nature" denies that Adam could have even had such a nature before the fall. So what type of nature did He have then?
Moderators John317 Posted June 19, 2011 Author Moderators Posted June 19, 2011 Originally Posted By: Skyblue888 Try Rom.1:3 This text is talking about Christ's "outer" humanity. It is not talking about Christ's "inner" nature. There is a difference! You misapply the Scripture. When humans are a descendent of someone, they're never a descendent only in their "outer" nature. Romans 1: 3 is telling us that Christ has two natures, one divine and the other human. It's saying that Christ's human nature was descended from David. Does that mean only Christ's body was affected by this descent? I see no reason in the Scriptures to believe so. The Bible is clear that Christ did not sin but it is equally clear that He was genuinely "tempted in every way JUST AS WE ARE, yet without sinning" (Heb. 4: 15). But if only Christ's body was descended from David, it is impossible that He would have been tempted "in every way just as we are." Having a body like every man would have caused Christ to suffer physically, but there's no reason to believe such a body would cause Christ to be tempted to sin "just as we are." James 1: 14, 15 tells us how each of us are tempted, and I submit that Jesus was indeed "tempted in every way just as we are, yet without sin." Jesus was sent "in the likeness [NOT unlikeness] of those subject to the sinful human condition" (Romans 8:3). Phil. 2: 7 says that Christ was "made in human likeness." If "likeness" means unlikeness, it would indicate that Christ merely looked human but was not really human. 2 John 7 says that imposters and antichrists do not acknowledge that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. What the false teachers were denying was that Christ came in the same flesh that you and I have. They weren't denying John 1: 14, that He came in ANY flesh-- rather, they were denying He came in the same kind of flesh that sinners have. That is to say, these antichrists were denying the very thing that Saint Paul affirms in Romans 8: 3: "Then God, planning to destroy sin, sent His own Son, in the likeness of those subject to the sinful human condition; by doing this, He condemned the sin in this human condition." Hebrews 2: 17, 18 agrees: "[Jesus Christ] had to be like his brothers and sisters in every respect, in order to be the High Priest faithful to God and merfiful to them, a priest able to ask pardon and atone for their sins. Having been tested through suffering, He is able to help those who are tested" (Christian Community Bible). The above verses aren't saying Christ had to assume a human body that looked just like the bodies of other human beings. Merely having a human body is not what caused Christ to be tempted. Christ was tempted to sin because He really shared the same nature as those whom He came to save (Heb. 2: 14). What nature was that? What kind of human nature did Jesus' brothers have? It was sinful nature, wasn't it? Yes, a sinful nature, not an unfallen, sinless nature like Adam's before the Fall. Jesus was without sin because He chose to obey His heavenly Father, and not because He was born with a different nature than all other humans are born with. He was born with a perfect divine nature, which means that Jesus was indeed God in the flesh; but at the same time, He was born with a fallen human nature, which means that Jesus the man was born with the same nature as other men. This is what makes it possible for Him to be a faithful and merciful High Priest, able to help us in our time of need. Our High Priest knows from personal experience what it is like to be tempted to sin. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Twilight II Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 John317, Christ did not come and overcome in our "sinful nature". He came in what we would call our "born again nature" and overcame. Christ was tempted in all points as we are. But that was external temptation. There is no record whatsoever that Christ was ever tempted by an internal desire to sin. It was all external. So when dealing with Hebrews here, it is not dealing with the "pull of the flesh", but the "temptations" of Satan. To re-iterate: Christ overcame as a "born again" human. He was born of Mary and the Spirit. He was different. But we can have that same "difference". He did not have what we were born with. But we can have what He was born with. This is the ONLY way that victory is possible... Mark :-)
Moderators John317 Posted June 19, 2011 Author Moderators Posted June 19, 2011 Christ did not come and overcome in our "sinful nature". He came in what we would call our "born again nature" and overcame. Christ was tempted in all points as we are. But that was external temptation. Greetings, Mark. And welcome back to the Forum!! :-) I agree with you that Christ was born "born again," that is, from conception He was born from above, of the Holy Spirit. But notice it doesn't say only that Jesus was tempted on all the points that we are tempted on. Rather, it says that Jesus was tempted on those same points "just as we are." But then how does the Bible say we are tempted? James 1: 14: "Each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed [tempted] by his own lust" (NASV). We are tempted then by our inward desires, not merely by external temptations. But is that sin? No. It is not sin to be tempted. Verse 15 describes the point at which the temptation becomes sin: "Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin." In the case of Jesus Christ, He never allowed the desire to conceive and give birth to sin. And that was His choice. It is also our choice. Our desires-- our temptations-- do not have to result in sin. As in the Garden, Jesus' choice was always, "Not my will but your [the Father's] will be done." Question: Did Jesus ever know what it was to have a desire to go contrary to the Father's will? If not, how can we say our High Priest knows from personal experience what it is like to be tempted to sin? And if not, wouldn't Christ's victory over sin be due to His being exempt from the kind of temptations that all humans experience? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Sonny Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 But notice it doesn't say only that Jesus was tempted on all the points that we are tempted on. Rather, it says that Jesus was tempted on those same points "just as we are."
Sonny Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 1 Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 1 John 1:1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin I have to give you this one....it made me think. However, the context reveal what "in Him there is not sin" means. Note the following: "we shall be like Him" "He was manifested to take away our sins" The following phrases prove that John is writing of Christ after His ascension. Keep in mind Sunday morning God raised Christ up with a glorified humanity free from indwelling sin. So, yes, in heaven Christ has no sin in Him. He left sin in the grave.
miz3 Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 What nature was that? What kind of human nature did Jesus' brothers have? It was sinful nature, wasn't it? Yes, a sinful nature, not an unfallen, sinless nature like Adam's before the Fall. You are using human to human heredity laws. Those laws do not apply to Jesus Christ. Jesus brothers were conceived by human to human conception. Jesus Christ was "conceived" by the Holy Spirit! Nothing else at all was involved in the incarnation. Only the Holy Spirit! Scripture is clear that Christ had an outer flesh like the fallen humanity of that day. Scripture is also clear that Christ's inner humanity was SINLESS! There are two parts to a human entity: 1. The outer physical part. 2. The inner nonphysical part called the spirit. see 1Corinthians 6-16 where it talks about the Spirit of God and the spirit of humans. It is clear that the sin of humans was placed on Christ at the Cross and was never a part in anyway shape or form before the Cross.
Sonny Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin Compare this to Romans 6:6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin [indwelling sin] might be done away with.... Again, notice that in Him the body ruled by sin (indwelling sin) was done away with in Christ. That old life died forever. That's the 2nd death. In it's place Christ was raised with a glorified humanity free from indwelling sin. Hence there's "no sin in Him". However, between the incarnation and the resurrection Christ, as the Son of Man, "was made sin". He took our humanity in it's fallen condition. He took our humanity indwelt with "the law of sin" and in that flesh He defeated "the law of sin". Not only did He defeat "sin in the flesh", but He permanently did away with it.
Sonny Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 It is clear that the sin of humans was placed on Christ at the Cross.... How did God do this since sin isn't a tangible thing? Let's say you sin and the law allows me to take your punishment. How does the judge place/position your sin (let's say it was murder) on me? Murder is an action. You took someone's life. How does the judge place "murder" on me. Makes no sense.
miz3 Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 Sonny, Your own text proves you wrong: "If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin." Romans 6:5-6. It says we were "united with him like this in his death". That means the Cross, Sonny! It does NOT mean at His birth! You also keep asking, "how God could put my sins on Jesus Christ at the Cross?". I will answer you question if you answer mine, "how can God put my sins in Christ at Christ's birth?" When you answer my question you will at the same time be answering your question!
Sonny Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 You also keep asking, "how God could put my sins on Jesus Christ at the Cross?". I will answer you question if you answer mine, "how can God put my sins in Christ at Christ's birth?" You can't place sin on anyone. It's a metaphor. Is 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all Here you have several metaphors: "We, like sheep". Sheep are known to stray from the flock. So Isaiah is using an metaphor. The same is true with the phrase "laid on Him". To understand these metaphors we need to read Paul. He was set aside to explain the gospel.
Sonny Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 I will answer you question if you answer mine, "how can God put my sins in Christ at Christ's birth?" Why do we sin? Romans 7:15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do....As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. We transgress because we have "sin" dwelling in us. This "sin" is referred to as iniquity - our bent-to-self. Christ defeated the desires of our nature (we all share one nature because we all share Adam's fallen life). He never sinned even by a thought and at the cross that old life, indwelt by our bent-to-self (sin), died forever. So Christ rewrote your history from Adam. He lived a perfect life in our humanity where you and I have failed. And He did something you and I can't do: He took the sin nature to the grave.
Sonny Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 "how can God put my sins in Christ at Christ's birth?" In contemplating the incarnation of Christ in humanity, we stand baffled before an unfathomable mystery, that the human mind cannot comprehend. The more we reflect upon it, the more amazing does it appear. How wide is the contrast between the divinity of Christ and the helpless infant in Bethlehem's manger! How can we span the distance between the mighty God and a helpless child? And yet the Creator of worlds, He in whom was the fullness of the Godhead bodily, was manifest in the helpless babe in the manger. Far higher than any of the angels, equal with the Father in dignity and glory, and yet wearing the garb of humanity! Divinity and humanity were mysteriously combined, and man and God became one. It is in this union that we find the hope of our fallen race (Signs of the Times, July 30, 1896). The Bible does not tell us the mechanics of How God took Christ's Deity and combined it with our humanity from Mary's womb. It's a mystery. Nevertheless, Christ was two persons in one: He was the self-existing Son of God and, while remaining Himself, He was united with our fallen humanity from the body of Mary. Hence, as Paul states, He "was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness." [Rom 1:3,4 NKJV] We all have one flesh - the seed of David according to the flesh! That humanity Christ, as God, assumed as one of us.
miz3 Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 Quote: Is 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all God "laid on Him the iniquity of us all" ON THE CROSS!
Sonny Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 God "laid on Him the iniquity of us all" ON THE CROSS! Metaphor. In other words Christ took our curse. The question is what qualified Christ to die for our sins? By uniting Himself to our corporate life that needed redeeming. In Him our humanity was made obedient. And in Him our humanity died forever. And in Him we are in Christ in the heavenly places, i.e, we have a glorified life in Him. All this answer the law. The law is satisfied.
miz3 Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 Metaphor. In other words Christ took our curse. The question is what qualified Christ to die for our sins? By uniting Himself to our corporate life that needed redeeming. In Him our humanity was made obedient. And in Him our humanity died forever. And in Him we are in Christ in the heavenly places, i.e, we have a glorified life in Him. All this answer the law. The law is satisfied. Your opinion! What you stated is not Scripture! It is just your opinion. Scripture does not support your views as we have shown you in page after page.
miz3 Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 Sonny, Christ's death is not a metaphor! Christ really died and our sins really died with Him on the Cross!
Sonny Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 Christ's death is not a metaphor! Now you've gone to misquoting me. I said that "laid on Him the iniquity of us all" was a metaphor. How do you lay sin on someone. If I murder someone, how can I lay the act of murder on your head? Murder is an act, not something tangible. You just don't get it, do you?
miz3 Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 Easy Sonny. The judge declares you the murderer by fiat! From Judge God there is no appeal! God declared Christ on the Cross to be the One who committed all our sins. By fiat! How can He do this? He can do this because He is God and He is the Judge. This is supported by Scripture which says: "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." 2Corinthians 5:21. It is plain and it is simple. No metaphor, just PURE SCRIPTURAL FACT!
Sonny Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 God declared Christ on the Cross to be the One who committed all our sins. By fiat! Sorry, God can't lie. He can't sin. To charge Christ with sin is a lie. That's what your version of the gospel does...it misrepresents both God and Christ.
miz3 Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 Sonny, God didn't sin! However God treated Jesus as if He was the sinner! Again, just like the lamb in the OT. The lamb didn't sin but was made to be sin for the Jew's sin! Jesus didn't sin but was made to be sin for US! Charging God with OUR sin is NOT lying! Christ was willing for God to place our sins on Him! This is what the Bible teaches. The Bible does NOT TEACH that Jesus had a "sinful nature"! The Bible does NOT TEACH that it was possible for Jesus to sin! The purpose of Christ's coming was "TO PAY OUR PENALTY FOR OUR SIN"! PERIOD! In paying the penalty for our sin, you and I get to go scot free (thus, "He will save His people from their sins"!).
Gustave Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 The unfortunate facts are that Ellen White re-classified what sin actually is.... ...Then affirmed Christ participated in it. ...Like all of us do. Ellen White Many claim that it was impossible for Christ to be overcome by temptation. Then He could not have been placed in Adam's position; He could not have gained the victory that Adam failed to gain. If we have in any sense a more trying conflict than had Christ, then He would not be able to succor us. But our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. . . . In man's behalf, Christ conquered by enduring the severest test. For our sake He exercised a self-control stronger than hunger or death.--The Desire of Ages, p. 117. {7ABC) SDA Youth Instructor, July 13, 1909 The sermon on the mount, though given especially to the disciples, was spoken in the hearing of the multitude." " Desire of Ages,'' page 298. Jesus was tempted as all have been to indulge in idle talk, but he ever resisted all such temptations, and when he spoke he taught his hearers. Ellen White, 5MR 112.3 The Son of God placed Himself in the sinner's stead, and passed over the ground where Adam fell, and endured the temptation in the wilderness which was a hundredfold stronger than was or ever will be brought to bear upon the human race. Jesus resisted the temptations of Satan in the same manner that every tempted soul may resist, by referring him to the inspired record and saying, "It is written." Christ OVERCAME the temptations as a man. Every man may overcome as Christ overcame. He humbled Himself for us. He was tempted in all points like as we are. He redeemed Adam's disgraceful failure and fall and was conqueror, thus testifying to all the unfallen worlds and to fallen humanity that man could keep the commandments of God through the divine power granted to him of heaven. Jesus the Son of God humbled Himself for us, endured temptation for us, overcame in our behalf, to show us how we may overcome; He has thus bound up His interest with humanity by the closest ties, and has given the positive assurance that we shall not be tempted above that we are able The temptation to participate in idle talk comes from WITHIN an individual.... ...According to the SDA teaching Christ wanted ( yearned ) to gossip. ...But He resisted His OWN desire to do so. That in itself is a mutated Christ other than the ONE according to the Scriptures.
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