Sonny Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 In sending Jesus Christ God upholds the Law and met the requirements of the Law. Thus we are now no longer slaves to the "sinful nature" but rather we are slaves to the "Spiritual Nature" Really, so God upholds the law by what He does in you! Wow, infused grace. Join the RCC. This is what happens when you reject the gospel!
miz3 Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 When Christ's assumed humanity died "all died". Our old life from Adam died "in Christ". No Sonny! It was only at the Cross that Jesus Christ became "sin for us". No other time was Jesus Christ ever made sin for us!
miz3 Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Sonny, The Jewish lamb was made sin for the Jew that brought that lamb. Now when did the lamb become sin for the Jew? Was it at the "birth" of the lamb? No! Was it while the lamb was growing in the field? No! It was ONLY when the lamb was placed on the alter (cross) that the lamb became sin for the Jew! Just as the OT sanctuary was an illustration of the actual Lamb (Jesus Christ). Jesus Christ was made "sin for us" ONLY when He was placed on the Cross. That is why, like the Jew in the OT, you and I are set free. The penalty has been paid and the Law satisfied.
miz3 Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Really, so God upholds the law by what He does in you! Wow, infused grace. Join the RCC. This is what happens when you reject the gospel! Yes Sonny, really! Now you are not saying that just because the Roman Catholic Church believes something that it is automatically wrong, are you? Because if that is true the SDA need to give up a number of things they hold to be so that are just like what Roman Catholics believe. I am not rejecting the Gospel! You are however, rejecting the clear Word of God that is being preached to you.
Sonny Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 It was only at the Cross that Jesus Christ became "sin for us". Funny, Paul disagrees: Gal 4:4 but when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law
Sonny Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Sonny, The Jewish lamb was made sin.... Lambs are symbolic. The reality can be found "in Christ"
Sonny Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 I am not rejecting the Gospel! Sure you are and now you are teaching a RC doctrine - the heresy of infused grace. God doesn't answer the law in you because you are a sinner. God answered the law in Christ because Christ assumed your humanity.
miz3 Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. 2 He is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3 So also, when we were children, we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world. 4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. 6 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba,[a] Father.” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.Galatians 4:1-7. Verse One: A child and a slave are the same. Even though the child may "own the whole estate" he is not mature enough to rule it and so is actually no more than a slave. Who is the child a slave too? Verse Two: He is subject to guardians and trustees until he reaches the maturity set by the father. Verse Three: So when we were children we humans were in slavery to the world and its practices. Verse Four: However, when the time set by God (by fiat) came, God sent Jesus Christ into the world where a woman birthed the baby under the conditions of God's Wrath as determined by the Law. In other words Jesus Christ was sent into a world that was under the curse of God because that world rejected and disobeyed continuously God's Holy Law. This verse is not talking anything about Jesus' inner nature. It is only talking about the condition of the world in which Jesus Christ came. Again, it is not talking about Jesus Christ's inner nature! Get it! Verse Five: Jesus Christ was sent to redeem those who were under the Law's death decree. Why did God send Jesus Christ to redeem those under the Law's death decree? The verse tells us, so that all humans might have the "full right to be sons". Verse Six: Because of what Jesus Christ has done we are now sons and not slaves. Because we are now sons and not slaves any longer God sends the Holy Spirit into us to "clean us up" (Sanctification) just I stated in previous posts. We need to be cleaned up so that we can now act like sons and not continue to act like slaves. Its all very simple, Sonny. Verse Seven: Paul comes to the conclusion that since we are no longer slaves but sons we are also as sons heirs to all that is God's. No where in this passage you quoted does it claim or state that Jesus Christ had a "sinful nature" like you and I. You chastised me for taking things out of context. Here is at least a second example of you grossly taking a text out of its clear context. Naughty, naughty!
miz3 Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Funny, Paul disagrees: Gal 4:4 but when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law Read my previous post on this very text and you see that you are wrong again. Paul does agree with me. You call names like "RCC infused grace" all you want. However, what is Biblical is Biblical. I have stated the Biblical position and you have not!
Sonny Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 Verse Four: However, when the time set by God (by fiat) came, God sent Jesus Christ into the world where a woman birthed the baby under the conditions of God's Wrath as determined by the Law. In other words Jesus Christ was sent into a world that was under the curse of God because that world rejected and disobeyed continuously God's Holy Law. Pure nonsense. This isn't the Bible. It's paraphrased. Use a genuine translation! BTW, what paraphrased version did you quote from?
ClubV12 Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 A miz3 and Sonny discussion ought tie those two up for a few days... I predict a draw! :)
miz3 Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 Verse Four: However, when the time set by God (by fiat) came, God sent Jesus Christ into the world where a woman birthed the baby under the conditions of God's Wrath as determined by the Law. In other words Jesus Christ was sent into a world that was under the curse of God because that world rejected and disobeyed continuously God's Holy Law. Sonny, What is in the box above is my commentary on verse four. If you really read my post, I quoted the actual Bible text in "blue". Then below the actual Bible text is a verse by verse commentary on what the text is saying.
miz3 Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 By the way Sonny I did you use a genuine tight translation. It is called the NIV 1984!
Overaged Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 In doing that Jesus Christ freed us from the slavery of that "old self" which made us to sin whether we wanted to or not! "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
miz3 Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 We are not robot sinners. We are not forced to sin; we choose to sin. Then I guess you don't believe in Romans chapter seven. Then there is this: "Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God." Romans 8:8. I guess we are robots!
Overaged Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 These texts refer to choices being made tho "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Sonny Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 By the way Sonny I did you use a genuine tight translation. It is called the NIV 1984! The NIV 1984 is not a word for word translation.
miz3 Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 These texts refer to choices being made tho The man of Romans seven has seen a great light. He likes the light. However, he cannot do the light because he is a slave to the sinful nature. It is not until the end of the chapter that Jesus Christ frees the man of Romans seven. Thus he now has a new Master. The Master is God. Then in Romans chapter eight Paul talks about two groups. Both groups are slaves. One group is a slave to the Spiritual Nature (because of Jesus Christ's freeing the person) while the other group remains a slave to the sinful nature. In Romans there is never a time when an individual is ever free to choose. He may want something but whether he gets it or not depends on who his master is. Just wanting something is not a choice it is a desire. The person is never, ever free to choose. In order to choose an entity must be free!(no master). No where in the Bible are persons independently free to choose. They may be liberated from one master to serve another master but they are never ever independently free without any master. A human is always a slave to something and never ever free!
miz3 Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 The NIV 1984 is not a word for word translation. The New International Version, 1984 happens to be a very tight translation. In fact it is among the best! Another translation I like is the New King James Version. There are others that are good as well, but my preferences trend towards these two versions. [your point cannot be sustained in any qualified tight version but my points can be sustained in any qualified tight version] Come on Sonny your problem is not the NIV, 1984. Your problem is saying that Jesus Christ was born with a sinful nature like you and I.
Sonny Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 These texts refer to choices being made tho No, before Christ you have no choice. Sure you might trade off sins, but you are slave to your love of self.
Sonny Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny The NIV 1984 is not a word for word translation. The New International Version, 1984 happens to be a very tight translation. In fact it is among the best!..... Come on Sonny your problem is not the NIV, 1984. Your problem is saying that Jesus Christ was born with a sinful nature like you and I. Here's the 1984 NIV (of which you did not quote) Gal 4:4 "But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law" What does "born under the law" mean, according to the context, and not your own private interpretation?
miz3 Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 I told you before! Here it is again! However, when the time set by God (by fiat) came, God sent Jesus Christ into the world where a woman birthed the baby under the conditions of God's Wrath as determined by the Law. In other words Jesus Christ was sent into a world that was under the curse of God because that world rejected and disobeyed continuously God's Holy Law. This verse is not talking anything about Jesus' inner nature. It is only talking about the condition of the world in which Jesus Christ came. Again, it is not talking about Jesus Christ's inner nature! Get it! Under the Law means "under the curse" or "under God's Wrath" IT DOES NOT have anything to do with Jesus Christ's inner nature! It is cannot be plainer than that!
Sonny Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 Here's the 1984 NIV (of which you did not quote) Gal 4:4 "But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law"
Sonny Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 Under the Law means "under the curse" or "under God's Wrath" Right, and Jesus as the Son of Man was born under the curse because as a man He has united Himself to our fallen race.
miz3 Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 Right, and Jesus as the Son of Man was born under the curse because as a man He has united Himself to our fallen race. You are not correct. Being under the curse means that he was born into a world under the curse of sin. It does NOT MEAN that Jesus Christ had a "sinful nature" like you and I.
Recommended Posts