Why SDAs Reject the Historic Creeds

[miz3]

Quote:

Ellen White

Many claim that it was impossible for Christ to be overcome by temptation. Then He could not have been placed in Adam's position; He could not have gained the victory that Adam failed to gain. If we have in any sense a more trying conflict than had Christ, then He would not be able to succor us. But our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. . . . In man's behalf, Christ conquered by enduring the severest test. For our sake He exercised a self-control stronger than hunger or death.--The Desire of Ages, p. 117. {7ABC)

This is not Biblical.

Ellen White often expressed her personal opinion and this is one of those personal opinions that reflected the views many others of her day had. This quote was taken from the "Conflict Series" and much of what she wrote in those books was "copied" material. Such copied material is merely opinion which Ellen White is entitled to have.

Such opinions are NOT INSPIRED!

Just because it is her opinion does not necessary mean she is wrong! However, in this particular case Ellen White is indeed wrong!

[ClubV12]

"The Lord had shown him (Paul) the difficulties and dangers which would arise in the churches, and, as these evils developed, the apostle recognized their significance.

... the reproof he sent them was as certainly written under the inspiration of the Spirit of God as were any of his other epistles. {AA 302.3}"

Like Paul, Ellen White wrote under inspiration, not personal opinion. She, like Paul, used her own words. It matters not if she copied, quoted or was influenced by a different writer. As no doubt Paul was of the same mind set, using scribes and others to help assemble his epistles. What SHE wrote, what Paul wrote, was as inspired as any biblical author.

"Many claim that it was impossible for Christ to be overcome by temptation. Then He could not have been placed in Adam's position; He could not have gained the victory that Adam failed to gain."

These are her words, verily the voice of God through her, as was Pauls testimony.

What do you do when YOUR interpretation of scripture differs from the prophet? You need to rethink your position!!!

[miz3]

It's not about gaining where Adam failed. The Bible does NOT TEACH THAT!

It is about reversing the death penalty that came to us through Adam.

[miz3]

The temptation to participate in idle talk comes from WITHIN an individual....

...According to the SDA teaching Christ wanted ( yearned ) to gossip.

...But He resisted His OWN desire to do so.

That in itself is a mutated Christ other than the ONE according to the Scriptures.

That may be what Ellen White believed but it is what most SDA believe today as did most SDA believe in the past.

However, as you correctly and truthfully point out that is NOT BIBLICAL in any way shape or form.

To believe that Jesus Christ "yearned" to sin but resisted is sheer blasphemy!

This is the product of the Deification of Ellen White by the SDA Church. The SDA Church has suffered from this disease for a long, long time.

In some ways they are trapped by their history.

[miz3]

What do you do when YOUR interpretation of scripture differs from the prophet? You need to rethink your position!!!

WRONG QUESTION!

The right question is:

WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN THE SCRIPTURE DIFFERS FROM ELLEN WHITE?

As for me I choose the Scripture!

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: John317

But notice it doesn't say only that Jesus was tempted on all the points that we are tempted on. Rather, it says that Jesus was tempted on those same points "just as we are."

[ClubV12]

Certainly, "choose the scripture" every time!

The question is: How do you interpret the scripture? If John317 has one opinion, Sonny another, miz3 yet another version, who is most likely to be correct in the interpretation?

NONE of the above, Ellen White was at the very least a gifted bible student, I'll go with her interpretation anyday!

If I have to make a choice between miz3's interpretation and Ellen Whites,,, uh,,, thats a no brainer! Get back to me with your ideas after you've written and published a large number of books on interpreting scripture! :)

[miz3]

ClubV12,

I will let the Holy Spirit work on your heart so that someday you will see clearly the Truth. That is the way I see it now.

It is about what the Holy Spirit tells you God wants. Its NOT about the credibility of miz3. Miz3 can only share what He has learned by God's wonderful grace and God's wonderful gift of the Holy Spirit.

This is NOT A CLAIM TO BEING A PROPHET or even the son of a prophet. I AM NOT A PROPHET!!!!

We are not all on the same learning curve. It is not a lock step thing. That is why we (you and I) share what we know while we continue to learn from God. We all hope the Holy Spirit helps others to know what God shares with us. The key is when the Holy Spirit tells us we have been "WRONG" then we must never ever let pride or self centeredness keep us from changing and embracing the Truth.

I don't agree with your current positions on some things but I would never ever determine that you are lost. In addition I can only say, "I disagree" and then give you my reasons. In addition, none of us know where on the "learning of curve of God" where anyone else is.

[Israfel]

The temptation to participate in idle talk comes from WITHIN an individual....

...According to the SDA teaching Christ wanted ( yearned ) to gossip.

...But He resisted His OWN desire to do so.

That in itself is a mutated Christ other than the ONE according to the Scriptures.

Gustave is so wrong on that one.

You are trying to refute the claims of the Bible which you claim to believe and that attempt shows the flaw in your belief system.

According to Scriptures,

"For we have not an high priest which cannot [size:17pt]be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; BUT was in ALL points tempted like as [we are, YET] without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." Hebrews 4:15,16 Emphasis mine.

Do we need to go over what temptation is?

Here is the bible again:

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." James 1:14 Emphasis mine.

Now is this a discrepancy or a misconception of the two writers? Every believer in the Bible would say no. And it is a NO, there isn't any. Paul and James, like you and I knew far too well what the HS was inspiring them to write about temptation and the Savior, so today even a little child could identify with the saying.

THEN, why are we debating that his temptations were not real, as we have? Read the few verses before in the Hebrew passage.

"4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things [are] naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession. 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities;"

They are saying that he knows us,and he knows what we are made of, and how temmptation works and He sympathize with the feeling of those things that are so strong to pull us down, so therefore since he has being tempted just as we are, He is able to succor us.

"For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham.

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted."

Heb 2:16-18

You are dealing here with doctrinal errors, which would take another thread to discuss such as "Which nature of Adam did Christ take when he came to the earth", the one before sin or after sin?.

[miz3]

Quote:

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; BUT was in ALL points tempted like as we are, YET without sin."

Israfel quoted this text.

Come on Israfel we have already covered this text and shown that your take on it is not true.

Gustave, much earlier blew your view out of the water completely.

Go back and catch up!

[Israfel]

Where about Miz3, because there is about one hundred pages here. I don't think I've missed anything, if I have, please post the reference.

Thank you.

[miz3]

Israfel,

I don't remember now! I am also too lazy to go back and hunt for it.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

What nature was that? What kind of human nature did Jesus' brothers have? It was sinful nature, wasn't it? Yes, a sinful nature, not an unfallen, sinless nature like Adam's before the Fall.

You are using human to human heredity laws. Those laws do not apply to Jesus Christ. Jesus brothers were conceived by human to human conception.

Jesus Christ was "conceived" by the Holy Spirit! Nothing else at all was involved in the incarnation. Only the Holy Spirit!

Scripture is clear that Christ had an outer flesh like the fallen humanity of that day. Scripture is also clear that Christ's inner humanity was SINLESS!

....

But don't you believe that Jesus was genetically related to His mother, Mary? After all, Jesus was the Son of man-- meaning that Jesus was descended from Adam. He was also a descendent of Noah, Abraham, Jacob, and King David. He didn't simply have a human body like all other humans, but He was truly related to those people. The Bible's testimony is that Jesus was literally the Son of God and the Son of Adam.

When He was conceived in Mary's womb, He became the Son of God in a new and different sense than He had ever been before. God was His real father. Yet the Son of God also assumed a genuine human nature-- as truly human as was His mother's. Contrary to the Roman Catholic view, Mary was not exempt from sin. She was born with a fallen nature just as any other member of the human family.

By "inner humanity," are you referring to Christ's mind? Christ never did sin, and this of course means that Christ never had sinful habits to overcome, nor was Christ's mind ever full of sin, as ours is. Yet He had normal human desires, such as the desire for a family and for companionship and closeness with other human beings. He developed sexually like any other male. The difference is that Christ always obeyed His Father whenever He was faced with a choice. We are born of the flesh whereas Christ was born of the Holy Spirit from the moment of conception. Therefore, rather than being controlled by the sinful desires of the body, Christ was controlled by the Holy Spirit, just as born-again believers may be. This was the "mind" which Christ had, because He was made "one new man" (Eph. 2: 14, 15).

An important statement to remember when considering this topic is found on page 72 of MCP: "The mind controls the whole man." The body of itself can't sin.

It's very important to keep in mind the distinction between "sinfulness" and "our sinful nature." The latter refers to the body, whereas the former refers to the operation of the mind. Christ's mind was "ever pure and undefiled."

[John317]

...

To believe that Jesus Christ "yearned" to sin but resisted is sheer blasphemy!

This is the product of the Deification of Ellen White by the SDA Church. The SDA Church has suffered from this disease for a long, long time.

In some ways they are trapped by their history.

SDAs have never believed or taught that Jesus "yearned" to sin. What He yearned to do was His Father's will.

As long as you don't understand the SDA position, you will continue to make false statements and accusations like the ones above.

[John317]

...WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN THE SCRIPTURE DIFFERS FROM ELLEN WHITE?

As for me I choose the Scripture!

Of course, and if you are sincerely persuaded after close, prayerful study that Ellen White differs from the Scripture, she would have advised you to choose the Scripture.

Just remember that Ellen White was not an exegete, and she did not write with that kind of purpose in mind. Similarly, Paul, James, John and Jude were not writing as exegetes. Ellen White told people that they should first study the Bible for themselves and then after they've studied it, they should study what she's written on that topic or on those particular verses.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

The temptation to participate in idle talk comes from WITHIN an individual....

...According to the SDA teaching Christ wanted ( yearned ) to gossip.

...But He resisted His OWN desire to do so.

That in itself is a mutated Christ other than the ONE according to the Scriptures.

[size:11pt]Gustave is so wrong on that one.

You got that right. Gustave is setting up a "straw man." The SDA church has never believed or taught that Christ "yearned" to commit sin. Christ actually yearned to fulfill His Father's will. Christ never sinned and therefore He never developed the predisposition to commit sin. He hated sin. Believers who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit may also learn to hate sin. In other words, we can learn with God's Spirit to have the mind of Christ.

Personally, I believe that God re-writes our mind when we submit to Him and live in a close, loving relationship with Him, always praying to Him and immersing ourselves in His Word. Believers who do this really do become new creations.

[ClubV12]

"Personally, I believe that God re-writes our mind when we submit to Him and live in a close, loving relationship with Him, always praying to Him and immersing ourselves in His Word. Believers who do this really do become new creations."

John 317

Thats a profound and wonderful thought John, a lot of hope and encouragement there. Thanks for that.

[John317]

Quote:

Ellen White

Many claim that it was impossible for Christ to be overcome by temptation. Then He could not have been placed in Adam's position; He could not have gained the victory that Adam failed to gain. If we have in any sense a more trying conflict than had Christ, then He would not be able to succor us. But our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. . . . In man's behalf, Christ conquered by enduring the severest test. For our sake He exercised a self-control stronger than hunger or death.--The Desire of Ages, p. 117. {7ABC)

This is not Biblical.

Ellen White often expressed her personal opinion and this is one of those personal opinions that reflected the views many others of her day had. This quote was taken from the "Conflict Series" and much of what she wrote in those books was "copied" material. Such copied material is merely opinion which Ellen White is entitled to have.

Such opinions are NOT INSPIRED!

Just because it is her opinion does not necessary mean she is wrong! However, in this particular case Ellen White is indeed wrong!

OK, it is your opinion that Ellen White is wrong here, and you are entitled to your opinion, of course.

It is also merely your opinion that Ellen White was expressing her "personal opinion" in the above quote.

It is a mistake to assume that since she used other people's writings, they expressed a personal opinion of Ellen White's. Nothing could be further from the truth. That is not how she wrote.

She never did merely copy people's writings. She used them selectively and creatively-- that is, the writing was changed to convey a new message. After God showed her things in vision, Ellen White would sometimes read things that expressed the message that God had shown her.

"Borrowing" was a common practice in Ellen White's day and in earlier times. For instance, the great William Shakespeare "copied" other people's writings. In fact, a number of the writers from whom Ellen White borrowed were themselves great borrowers of other people's writings.

Ellen White categorically denied that she ever wrote her own opinion in messages that were from God to the church or to individuals. See 1 SM 15-58.

[John317]

:-)

[John317]

The Bible does NOT TEACH that it was possible for Jesus to sin!

Jesus of Nazareth was a free moral agent. As such, He could have chosen to do other than He did. If He had no choice, but was compelled to do what He did, there is no exhibition or proof of His great love for us.

Would you be impressed with a someone who gives you gifts and showers you with love when you know he/she has no choice in the matter?

The entire NT makes no sense if Christ could not possibly have sinned. For one thing, if your idea is correct, then the temptations or tests were no real tests at all but a charade.

Justice requires that Christ's temptations be just as genuine as Adam's tests.

[miz3]

Personally, I believe that God re-writes our mind when we submit to Him and live in a close, loving relationship with Him, always praying to Him and immersing ourselves in His Word. Believers who do this really do become new creations.

Now John317 you could not be more correct in making that statement!

I can heartily endorse 100% what you wrote in the box above!

Now God put those words in your mouth!

[miz3]

Borrowing" was a common practice in Ellen White's day and in earlier times. For instance, the great William Shakespeare "copied" other people's writings. In fact, a number of the writers from whom Ellen White borrowed were themselves great borrowers of other people's writings.

I never said that Ellen White was wrong just because she borrowed.

After all no one but God is really an original "anything". Every human who has existed has borrowed. Not a single human has ever been original in anything. It may seem original to them but as the writer of Ecclesiastes said, "there is nothing new under the sun".

What I did say was that she borrowed from those who seemed to her correct when they wrote the same opinions as she held. It was natural for her to copy them especially if she thought they wrote better than she herself could express. That is fine, nothing wrong with that. However, such writings were indeed her opinion and NOT "inspired" in the sense we call the Scriptures "inspired".

Does this mean that when she wrote her own opinions or copied those who shared her opinions that they were wrong?

Not necessarily. We often agree with others and believe they are correct when sharing their opinions with us.

For example: my last post agreeing with you John317 was an expression of my opinion of your opinion. It is opinion but I personally believe your expressed opinion in that case was as right as anything can be.

Opinions can be right or they can be wrong! In some cases what we thought was opinion is not opinion but we later find that it was actually "inspired by God".

Such may be the case in our experience with Ellen White. The reverse is true also.

[parenthetically John317 the statement I agreed with you on that I cited in this post, I believe is actually "inspired". Whether you may have realized it or not I believe God designed that you make such a profound statement. That does not mean you are a prophet but for at least that instant I believe you spoke the Words of God!]

[Gustave]

You got that right. Gustave is setting up a "straw man." The SDA church has never believed or taught that Christ "yearned" to commit sin.

[miz3]

Would you be impressed with a someone who gives you gifts and showers you with love when you know he/she has no choice in the matter?

The answer to this question is:

YES!

I say, yes, because God is Love! It is just His natural self. God does not have to choose Love. Such a notion is ridiculous and is not Biblical. Nor does Ellen White agree that God has to choose Love.

She states as does the Bible that GOD IS LOVE!

Someone who is; never, ever has to choose to be!

For example: You John317 are a human being. You can't choose to be a human being because you already are a human being. You cannot choose NOT TO BE HUMAN! You are human not because you chose to be, but rather you are because you are. You cannot choose NOT to be because you can't choose to be something your not.

The same is true for God. God is God. God cannot choose NOT to be God because HE IS!.

Love is the same way. God is Love. God cannot choose to NOT Love because He is Love.

God is also Hate. He cannot not choose to not hate. He says I hate divorce.

God Loves because He is Love. God Hates because He is also Hate. It is not a matter of choice.

When God hates sin it is because God is Hate. He doesn't choose to hate sin, He hates sin because that is the way God is! God doesn't choose to Love me, He just does because that is the way God is!

Love and Hate are just as much God as you and I are human. We are what we are because we are. It is not a matter of choice!

God is what He is because He is God!

[miz3]

Gustave,

I believe you have nailed it again!

That is marvelous. Couldn't say it better my self.

I really like that James 1:13 text!