Why SDAs Reject the Historic Creeds

[Sonny]

Here's the gospel made simple:

1] Adam passed on to you, through procreation, a life that had sinned and a life condemned for having indwelling sin.

2] Because God's law requires death to the sinner you have to die.

3] So at the incarnation God placed your life from Adam into Christ. In other words he put YOU into Christ. He combined Christ's Deity with your fallen life.

4] For 30 + years Christ said no to the desires of your sinful nature and

5] On the cross your life came to and end when Christ, as the Son of Man, died. Hence, as Paul states, "You died to the law in the humanity of Christ" (Rom 7:4)

6] So "in Christ" your humanity was made obedient to the law of God, but since your humanity contains the virus of sin (i.e., the sin nature) your life had to come to and end "in Christ"

7] Sunday morning God raised you up with Christ and seated you in the heaven places. In other words Christ has rewritten your history. In Him you have obeyed God's law and in Him you have died the 2nd death according to God's law and in Him you now have a glorified, sinless humanity free from the sin nature, where? In Christ.

That's the gospel!

[Overaged]

In order to choose an entity must be free!(no master). No where in the Bible are persons independently free to choose. They may be liberated from one master to serve another master but they are never ever independently free without any master.

A human is always a slave to something and never ever free!

So God just forces us to be saved; even if we don't want it?

[Sonny]

Being under the curse means that he was born into a world under the curse of sin.

So the curse of sin condemns us? Again, Paul says different and therefore you are in gross error:

"Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

So the curse comes from "the book of the law" where you have the 10 Commandments & many, many other laws. You are cursed if you don't obey them. Nothing about the "curse of sin". That's your addition!

[Sonny]

So God just forces us to be saved; even if we don't want it?

No....Agape does not force and God is agape

[Sonny]

Gal 4:4 "But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law"

What does "born under the law" mean, according to the context, and not your own private interpretation?

Okay, miz3, the only way to interpret this passage is by the immediate context!

The question, again, is what does Paul mean by "born under the law"? What does the immediate context tell us? Here's the context:

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law.... [NASB]

[Sonny]

Here's the NIV:

Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law

Who did Christ come to liberate from "under law"?

Answer: "those under law"

Why would Christ want to liberate us from "under law"? Is the a law bad thing? No, "The law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good." (Rom 7:12)

The problem is not the law - the problem is us. What's wrong with us?

Go to Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped , and all the world may become guilty before God.

Romans 2:12 ... all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

If you are a sinner and yet "under law" that simply means you must die...but not just any death - you must die the 2nd death.

So back to Gal 4:4 "But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law"

Now a question: Who need redeeming from "under law"? Those in verse 5: "To redeem (us) under law". How did Christ redeem us? Gal 4:4 "God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law..."

Christ as the son of man was born of a woman. Even though Christ's human mind was under the full control of God's Spirit (remember He was born of the Spirit) His assumed humanity, which is ours, stood condemned. So Christ, as the son of man, took our curse by assuming us.

[miz3]

Here's the gospel made simple:

1] Adam passed on to you, through procreation, a life that had sinned and a life condemned for having indwelling sin.

2] Because God's law requires death to the sinner you have to die.

3] So at the incarnation God placed your life from Adam into Christ. In other words he put YOU into Christ. He combined Christ's Deity with your fallen life.

4] For 30 + years Christ said no to the desires of your sinful nature and

5] On the cross your life came to and end when Christ, as the Son of Man, died. Hence, as Paul states, "You died to the law in the humanity of Christ" (Rom 7:4)

6] So "in Christ" your humanity was made obedient to the law of God, but since your humanity contains the virus of sin (i.e., the sin nature) your life had to come to and end "in Christ"

7] Sunday morning God raised you up with Christ and seated you in the heaven places. In other words Christ has rewritten your history. In Him you have obeyed God's law and in Him you have died the 2nd death according to God's law and in Him you now have a glorified, sinless humanity free from the sin nature, where? In Christ.

That's the gospel!

The only problem I see with this is:

ITS NOT BIBLICAL!

I have shown you repeatedly how what you say is not Biblical.

This view of the gospel is a concoction of your imagination.

[miz3]

Sonny,

The main issue is that you keep insisting that Jesus Christ had a "sinful nature" like you and I. That is:

SIMPLY NOT BIBLICAL!

[miz3]

So God just forces us to be saved; even if we don't want it?

NO! NO! NO!

You have the option to REJECT what God has already done for you!

You can't choose what you already have but you can REJECT what you already have!

[miz3]

Quote:

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law.... [NASB]

Explanation of verse four:

However, when the time set by God (by fiat) came, God sent Jesus Christ into the world where a woman birthed the baby under the conditions of God's Wrath as determined by the Law. In other words Jesus Christ was sent into a world that was under the curse of God because that world rejected and disobeyed continuously God's Holy Law.

This verse is not talking anything about Jesus' inner nature. It is only talking about the condition of the world in which Jesus Christ came. Again, it is not talking about Jesus Christ's inner nature! Get it!

Explanation of verse five:

Jesus Christ was sent to redeem those who were under the Law's death decree. Why did God send Jesus Christ to redeem those under the Law's death decree? The verse tells us, so that all humans might have the "full right to be sons".

Explanation of verse six:

Because of what Jesus Christ has done we are now sons and not slaves. Because we are now sons and not slaves any longer God sends the Holy Spirit into us to "clean us up" (Sanctification) just I stated in previous posts. We need to be cleaned up so that we can now act like sons and not continue to act like slaves. Its all very simple, Sonny.

Explanation of verse seven:

Paul comes to the conclusion that since we are no longer slaves but sons we are also as sons heirs to all that is God's.

No where in this entire passage you quoted does it claim or state that Jesus Christ had a "sinful nature" like you and I.

You chastised me for taking things out of context. Here is at least a second example of you grossly taking a text out of its clear context.

[miz3]

Here's the NIV:

Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law

Who did Christ come to liberate from "under law"?

Answer: "those under law"

Why would Christ want to liberate us from "under law"? Is the a law bad thing? No, "The law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good." (Rom 7:12)

The problem is not the law - the problem is us. What's wrong with us?

Go to Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped , and all the world may become guilty before God.

Romans 2:12 ... all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

If you are a sinner and yet "under law" that simply means you must die...but not just any death - you must die the 2nd death.

So back to Gal 4:4 "But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law"

Now a question: Who need redeeming from "under law"? Those in verse 5: "To redeem (us) under law". How did Christ redeem us? Gal 4:4 "God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law..."

Christ as the son of man was born of a woman. Even though Christ's human mind was under the full control of God's Spirit (remember He was born of the Spirit) His assumed humanity, which is ours, stood condemned. So Christ, as the son of man, took our curse by assuming us.

This explanation is tortured, illogical, incoherent and just plain wrong.

The Bible does NOT say what you are trying in vain to make it say.

[Sonny]

This explanation is tortured, illogical, incoherent and just plain wrong.

Nope...it's Biblical! It's the gospel.

[miz3]

Sonny,

You have yet to show how Jesus Christ had a "sinful nature" like you and I.

The texts you cited so far do not get it done.

You can cite a text and then by your tortured, incoherent, illogical twistings claim to have made Christ have a "sinful nature". Doing this does get it done!

Its not the gospel, its not Biblical that Christ had a "sinful nature".

However, you can believe whatever you want to but if you believe what you have shared with me here you are believing an unTruth which cannot be supported even in the slightest way by the Bible.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: miz3

This explanation is tortured, illogical, incoherent and just plain wrong.

Nope...it's Biblical! It's the gospel.

All other gospels make a liar of God.

How so?

Well, did God do away with His law? No! Then He just couldn't do away with it's requirements, which are "obey & live" - "disobey & die". That death is the 2nd death.

So you have to die and you did "in Christ". Go to Romans 7:4

So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another....6 But now, by dying to what once bound us [the law], we have been released from the law....

The things I've left out involves the work of the Spirit. Why? Because right now I'm concentrating on the gospel. Yes, when you accept the gospel a change of heart begins that leads you to live the Christians life, but again the gospel is what I'm zeroing in on.

My point? Paul is clear - "you died to the law in Christ". Why? It demanded your death. That's the only way to satisfy the law. "The person who sins must die".

In Christ you died to the law...that is, as far as the law is concerned you don't exist. Your old man is dead...it died forever never to be resurrected. That's the 2nd death.

Paul says, "the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression" (Rom 4:15)

Has the law be abolished? No! What did Christ say? "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law"

So "no" - the law stands. Then what died? YOU DID, in the body of Christ.

Okay, that's the gospel.

[skyblue888]

Sonny,

The main issue is that you keep insisting that Jesus Christ had a "sinful nature" like you and I. That is:

SIMPLY NOT BIBLICAL!

Not biblical !!!???

Try Rom.1:3.

sky

[miz3]

Try Rom.1:3

This text is talking about Christ's "outer" humanity.

It is not talking about Christ's "inner" nature.

There is a difference!

You misapply the Scripture.

[Sonny]

Rom 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David

The only type of human nature is sinful human nature. Paul calls it "the law of sin" (the power of sin).

Now notice how Christ defeated sin:

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life (the power of the Spirit) in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death.

Are any of us free from death? No. Are any of us free from our sinful nature? No! Where does Paul state that this happened? "In Christ". In Christ your old life from Adam ("you") died the 2nd death and hence your sin nature came to an end.

Verse 3:For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and because of sin, condemned sin in the flesh

Where did Christ condemn sin? In the flesh. Remember what Paul states?

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing.... 20 But if what I would not, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me

Notice, sin is not only an outward act, it's part of our very humanity. It's sin in me. That's our bent to self...or iniquity. Where did Christ defeat this bent to self? "In the flesh" - in our humanity!

Now, I'll talk about fruit:

that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

That word "might" is conditional because reflecting Christ involves "walking in the Spirit". So we struggle with this nature until the 2nd coming. But the good news is that "there's no condemnation" to those who have accept the gospel.

[Sonny]

You are making this up....It's ridiculous! You can't be a serious Bible student and talk this nonsense. I'm sorry, but it's crazy!

[Sonny]

But the good news is that "there's no condemnation" to those who have accept the gospel.

Keep in mind if you accept the gospel you are also accepting what is true of you "in Christ". Since you died in Christ, now by faith you "considered yourself dead to sin and alive to God". That's the fruit, but I don't want to get sidetracked from the gospel. For now all of us need to understand the gospel

[miz3]

Rom 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David

This is the "outward human nature".

If you go on to verse four you see where Paul is talking about Jesus inner person. Let me quote the whole thing for you.

"regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit[a] of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord."

Romans 1:3-4. (NIV,1984)

Now verse three clearly talks about Christ's OUTER person, while verse four talks about Christ's INNER person. The OUTER person was flesh, the INNER person was Spirit!

"3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead."

Romans 1:3-4. (New King James Version)

Again, verse three talks about Christ's OUTER person, and verse four talks about Christ's INNER person.

"concerning His Son, who was born (F)of a descendant of David (G)according to the flesh, 4 who was declared (H)the Son of God with power [c]by the resurrection from the dead, according to the [d]Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,"

Romans 1:3-4. (New American Standard Bible)

Again, verse three talks about Christ's OUTER person, and verse four talks about Christ's INNER person.

You cannot just quote verse three as you have and then declare victory. The context with verse four tells you a different story than the one you have declared.

Again, you took a single text out of context because you did not bother to include other verses. In this case using other verses was indeed important. In this case "context" is vital!

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Rom 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David

This is the "outward human nature".

No such thing....

[miz3]

So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another....6 But now, by dying to what once bound us [the law], we have been released from the law....

The things I've left out involves the work of the Spirit. Why? Because right now I'm concentrating on the gospel. Yes, when you accept the gospel a change of heart begins that leads you to live the Christians life, but again the gospel is what I'm zeroing in on.

My point? Paul is clear - "you died to the law in Christ". Why? It demanded your death. That's the only way to satisfy the law. "The person who sins must die".

In Christ you died to the law...that is, as far as the law is concerned you don't exist. Your old man is dead...it died forever never to be resurrected. That's the 2nd death.

At the CROSS, Sonny, at the CROSS!

You are trying to make it at the BIRTH. No such thing happened at the Birth.

What you are preaching above happened at the CROSS!

[John317]

...If you are a sinner and yet "under law" that simply means you must die...but not just any death - you must die the 2nd death.

So back to Gal 4:4 "But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law"

Now a question: Who need redeeming from "under law"? Those in verse 5: "To redeem (us) under law". How did Christ redeem us? Gal 4:4 "God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law..."

Christ as the son of man was born of a woman. Even though Christ's human mind was under the full control of God's Spirit (remember He was born of the Spirit) His assumed humanity, which is ours, stood condemned. So Christ, as the son of man, took our curse by assuming us.

There are at least two views of this expression, "born under law." (Notice that it is without the definite article.)

The first view is that it speaks of Christ's having been born under the jurisdiction of the Jewish law.

It seems to be the view held by most commentators as well as by many translators. Phillips translation reads, "born under the jurisdiction of the Law," and The New Translation has, "born under the Laws of Moses." It is also the view held by the SDA Bible Commentary and a good number of Study Bibles, including the Christian Community Bible (Roman Catholic). One translator whom I greatly admire, Heinz W. Cassirer, translates it as "born subject to the law," which closely follows Martin Luther's German translation. (See God's New Covenant: A New Testament Treanslation, William B Eernmans Pub. Co., 1989.)

The second view is that Paul here teaches that Christ not only became human but that the Lord Jesus took the place of the transgressor of God's law; that is, that our sins were imputed to Christ. This appears to me to be Paul's primary meaning.

If we argue that Paul is saying Christ was born under the Jewish law for the purpose of saving those who are under the Jewish law, we imply that Christ did not die in order to save Gentiles. But of course Christ died to save all of humanity, not merely those who are under the jurisdiction of the Jewish laws.

The latter view is the understanding given by Martin Luther's Commentary on St. Paul's Epistle To the Galatians (1531, 1535), A.T. Jones' Studies in Galatians(1899-1900), and E.J. Waggoner's Glad-Tidings(1900).

In regard to Galatians 4: 4, Luther speaks of Christ's "bearing the condemnation of the law," thus "deliver[ing] us from the curse thereof" (Ibid., page 358).

The Andrew's Study Bible (published by SDAs) takes this same view. It says that "Christ was born under the curse of the law," and refers the reader to its notes regarding Galatians 3: 13: "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us..." "In bearing the punishment for sin, Christ became a substitute for the sinner. The curse that we deserve fell upon Him."

I used to hold the first view, but I've changed my mind and now accept the second. Both views are possible-- in fact, it may be that Paul intended both meanings-- but I believe the second view is most consistent with the rest of Scripture and is Paul's main point.

[Sonny]

You are trying to make it at the BIRTH.

Jesus defeated the sin nature at its source - "in the flesh". In order for Christ to defeat the sin nature He has to assume it. Where did He assume it? At the incarnation.

[Sonny]

If we argue that Paul is saying Christ was born under the Jewish law for the purpose of saving those who are under the Jewish law, we imply that Christ did not die in order to save Gentiles. But of course Christ died to save all of humanity, not merely those who are under the jurisdiction of the Jewish laws.

Good point....

Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law

Christ, by assuming us, came under the curse of the law. Not for sinning, but because He associated Himself with our fallen humanity that stands condemned (i.e., is unfit for heaven).

That's why at the resurrection Christ was raised with a glorified humanity free from mortality and free from indwelling sin. He left "our old man" (our old humanity) in the grave.

That's how He could redeem us from under the law.