Sonny Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 Jesus Christ did not have any sin regardless of source "infused" (sonny's type of infusion) into His inner nature in any way shape or form. Any type of intelligent response from you has now exited the building. Until you can get your facts straight there's no use continuing....
Overaged Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Jesus Christ did not have any sin regardless of source "infused" (sonny's type of infusion) into His inner nature in any way shape or form. Any type of intelligent response from you has now exited the building. Until you can get your facts straight there's no use continuing.... We are not questioning anyone's intelligence here. Grow up! "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
miz3 Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 Your version? Absolutely! I gave you Biblical evidence and all you do is the response above. Its not "my version" Sonny, its the Bible's Version!
miz3 Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 Any type of intelligent response from you has now exited the building. Until you can get your facts straight there's no use continuing.... Long on insults but short on Biblical evidence!
Sonny Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 We are not questioning anyone's intelligence here. Grow up! Something is wrong when I repeatedly correct Miz3 after he continues to repeat the same old, false arguments. I never have said that our nature was "infused" to Christ. Never! What I have said is at the incarnation our fallen life from Adam was joined to Christ's Deity. As the 2nd Adam Christ had to answer the demands of the law, which are "obey & live" & "disobey & die".
Overaged Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 miz3 is just tryin to raise a little farenheight "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Sonny Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 miz3.... Maybe it's a breakdown in communications, maybe not, but I did get a little rude with you. For that I'm sorry. I hope you will at least look into my posts at a later time. Give it chance...pray about it.
miz3 Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 What I have said is at the incarnation our fallen life from Adam was joined to Christ's Deity. As the 2nd Adam Christ had to answer the demands of the law, which are "obey & live" & "disobey & die". Adam's fallen nature or anybody's fallen nature was never joined (attached, connected to, infused, or any such like) with Christ's Deity or Christ's humanity. NO FALLEN ANYTHING was joined, attached connected, etc. to the inner part of Christ. Jesus Christ was pure as anything can be within His inner Deity and His inner humanity. In other words Jesus Christ's humanity was as pure as Jesus Christ's Deity. The ONLY THING FALLEN IN ANY WAY was the OUTER flesh of Jesus Christ. Which means Jesus Christ could get hungry, could get tired, could get a virus cold, could feel cold and and heat, etc. It has to be this way, or Jesus Christ could not be God's PERFECT LAMB, a Lamb without spot or defect. It parallels the OT lamb which also had to be without spot or blemish. When you read the Matthew account of the Incarnation, it states that Christ was conceived ONLY BY THE HOLY SPIRIT! The Holy Spirit did not combine with anything else in the forming of Jesus Christ. Mary was just the incubator. This is all Biblical.
miz3 Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 Maybe it's a breakdown in communications, maybe not, but I did get a little rude with you. For that I'm sorry. I've forgotten what you are talking about in regard to this. You are a good guy!
Sonny Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 Key Points: Justification by faith raises an ethical issue: How can God justify believing sinners and at the same time maintain His integrity to the divine law that justly condemns them to eternal death? [see Romans 4:5; Galatians 3:10.] During the Reformation, the Reformers answered this question with the doctrine of substitution in which Christ’s righteousness substitutes for the believer’s lack of righteousness. Catholic scholars argued that substitution was unethical. It made God testify to a lie: declaring a sinner justified who is still a sinner. They insisted that before God could declare a person justified, He had to make the person righteous through an infused grace. The Catholic scholars were ethically right: God does need to make sinners righteous before He can legally declare them to be righteous. They were wrong in their solution to the problem, however. The Reformers were right in their solution to the problem: the Bible clearly teaches that sinners are justified on the basis of the life and death of Jesus substituting for their own sinful life [see Romans 10:4; Acts 13:39]. The Reformers were ethically wrong, however, in defining substitution as Jesus’ life and death being accepted instead of our life and death. Biblically, the doctrine of substitution is based on the concept of corporate oneness. God can legally justify sinners because all humanity corporately obeyed the law in one Man, Jesus Christ. Only when we identify the humanity of Jesus with the corporate fallen humanity He came to redeem can we teach an ethical gospel that is unconditional good news. The main reason Christ became a man was to redeem men and women from sin, not primarily to prove that they could keep God’s law or to be their Example [see Matthew 1:21; Galatians 4:4-5; Hebrews 2:14-17]. Christ, in His humanity, saved men and women in actuality, not vicariously. Christ’s life and death actually changed humanity’s past; Christ’s life and death became our life and death. In Him we lived a perfect life; in Him we died the penalty for sin [see 2 Corinthians 5:14]. The Bible clearly teaches that Christ took the same nature as that of the human race He came to redeem [see Hebrews 2:14-17]. But it stops short of saying that in His humanity Christ was just as we are in our fallen humanity. The Bible says He “was made flesh” [ John 1:14]. He became something He was not. He took sinful nature upon Himself in order to redeem it. [From Beyond Belief]
miz3 Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 Key Points: Justification by faith raises an ethical issue: How can God justify believing sinners and at the same time maintain His integrity to the divine law that justly condemns them to eternal death? [see Romans 4:5; Galatians 3:10.] During the Reformation, the Reformers answered this question with the doctrine of substitution in which Christ’s righteousness substitutes for the believer’s lack of righteousness. Catholic scholars argued that substitution was unethical. It made God testify to a lie: declaring a sinner justified who is still a sinner. They insisted that before God could declare a person justified, He had to make the person righteous through an infused grace. The Catholic scholars were ethically right: God does need to make sinners righteous before He can legally declare them to be righteous. They were wrong in their solution to the problem, however. The Reformers were right in their solution to the problem: the Bible clearly teaches that sinners are justified on the basis of the life and death of Jesus substituting for their own sinful life [see Romans 10:4; Acts 13:39]. The Reformers were ethically wrong, however, in defining substitution as Jesus’ life and death being accepted instead of our life and death. Biblically, the doctrine of substitution is based on the concept of corporate oneness. God can legally justify sinners because all humanity corporately obeyed the law in one Man, Jesus Christ. Only when we identify the humanity of Jesus with the corporate fallen humanity He came to redeem can we teach an ethical gospel that is unconditional good news. The main reason Christ became a man was to redeem men and women from sin, not primarily to prove that they could keep God’s law or to be their Example [see Matthew 1:21; Galatians 4:4-5; Hebrews 2:14-17]. Christ, in His humanity, saved men and women in actuality, not vicariously. Christ’s life and death actually changed humanity’s past; Christ’s life and death became our life and death. In Him we lived a perfect life; in Him we died the penalty for sin [see 2 Corinthians 5:14]. This is nothing more than mixed logic/legalistic hocus pocus. The Bible says nothing about "legal justification" which thus requires Jesus Christ to have "taken in His inner person" our fallen nature. Using this kind of "logic/legalism" is nothing more than an attempt by some foolish theologians to satisfy the "grace" lobby and the "legalistic" lobby in one fell swoop. The Bible cares absolutely NOTHING about these two foolish groups and their twisted Bible scholarship and twisted arguments as to whether we are saved by "grace" alone and thus not under any law, or the "legalistic" group that is so worried about the Law being destroyed. In this attempt to settle the argument between the "gracites" and "legalites" we twist the Bible's true message. This does not work because none of it is: BIBLICAL! Plain and simple!
miz3 Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 The Bible clearly teaches that Christ took the same nature as that of the human race He came to redeem [see Hebrews 2:14-17]. But it stops short of saying that in His humanity Christ was just as we are in our fallen humanity. The Bible says He “was made flesh” [ John 1:14]. He became something He was not. He took sinful nature upon Himself in order to redeem it. [From Beyond Belief] NO! NO1 NO1 and NO! The Bible teaches no such thing! Jesus Christ was never, ever sullied in His "inner being" by our sinful nature or any sinfulness whatsoever! That is BIBLICAL!
ClubV12 Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 To determine what is and what isn't biblical requires one to interpret the bible verses correctly. The result of incorrect interpretation has gnereated countless variations of christian churches. Every preacher on the planet claims HIS interpretation is accurate, that it is "biblical", because he said so. Nothing new there. How do we know any given man has interpreted scripture correctly? Simple, by comparing their interpretation to the inspired interpretation of the Lords messenger, Ellen White. You can simply chose who you want to follow, or, you can conjur up your very own interpretation! Your call...
Sonny Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 Miz3, From what did Christ come to save you? Also, use your Bible to answer my question, please.
miz3 Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 How do we know any given man has interpreted scripture correctly? Simple, by comparing their interpretation to the inspired interpretation of the Lords messenger, Ellen White. You can simply chose who you want to follow, or, you can conjur up your very own interpretation! Your call... I am sorry ClubV12 but this is NOT the way to separate Truth from error. Ellen White does NOT REPLACE THE HOLY SPIRIT! It does not matter what zillions of Bible scholars, pastors, and all manner of other humans say. You are trying to create some undisputed objective criteria. Doing such is impossible. There is no from the humans standpoint such a criteria. There is no "human objective standard". Ellen White is not that standard. She would be livid at anyone who made her such a standard as you and others on this website have done. God, His Word as interpreted by the Holy Spirit is the only True Interpreter. If that is too subjective for you, I am sorry, because that is the only Standard God gave us. 1Corinthians 2:6-16 makes this abundantly clear. You say, "but, but, that is how we get so many varied interpretations. That is how we get David Koresh, pastorchick, all the various denominations, all the various "isms", all the pagan religions, all the agnostics, atheists, etc., etc. Unfortunately that is true. God expects each of us "individually" NOT CORPORATELY, to stand before Him and Him alone to give an account of ourselves. God does not save "corporate" entities. The SDA Church along with many others believe in this "corporate salvation". NO! NO! Salvation is an individual thing! That is Biblical! The question is when that happens are we going to be able to blame Ellen White for leading us astray, blaming our pastors and theologians for leading us astray, blaming our 28 fundamentals or whatever number it may be for leading us astray, blaming where we were born, blaming all the different worldviews for why we were lead astray, etc. etc. No! My friend none of those things will hold up in God's Judgment. The only thing that will hold up is: Did we as a single individual entity listen to God through the Holy Spirit teaching us what the Truth is? Did we listen to the Light God sent our way through the Holy Spirit? Not what we "claim" came from God but what God actually sent us in regard to Truth and in regard to Light. You are preaching a "corporate gospel" and "a corporate justification", etc. The Bible is always about the God as relates to the individual. Individuals are saved. Individuals are Justified. When we get into "corporate" this and that we can be sure we are on the WRONG TRACK! Such things come to us on ONE OBJECTIVE PACKAGE! God sends to us the Truth (which is itself Objective) in many different packages. The question is are you responding correctly to that message from God? Are you listening to God's Holy Spirit or are you listening to something other than the True Holy Spirit of God? Only you and God know the answer to that question!
Sonny Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny How do we know any given man has interpreted scripture correctly? Simple, by comparing their interpretation to the inspired interpretation of the Lords messenger, Ellen White. You can simply chose who you want to follow, or, you can conjur up your very own interpretation! Your call... I am sorry Sonny but this is NOT the way to separate Truth from error. Huh, Miz 3, wrong guy....I didn't write this.
ClubV12 Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 I wrote that!! Sometimes the forum puts somebody elses name in there when you do a "quote". It's a weird thing and has caused confusion a number of times. I have no idea why it does that, but it is annoying! What we need to understand is HOW inspiration is given, HOW the Holy Spirit works. If you think the Holy Spirit is all you need to interpret scripture, that and that alone, ignoring the counsel of the brethren, it is not the Spirit of God directing your steps! The Holy Spirit does not work that way.
skyblue888 Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 Yes very annoying! "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 "The question is are you responding correctly to that message from God? Are you listening to God's Holy Spirit or are you listening to something other than the True Holy Spirit of God?" Yup, that is the very heart of the matter right there! How will know which "spirit" is guiding you? By understanding how the Holy Spirit works, lest you be guided by a spirit not of God.
miz3 Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 Sonny, God sent Jesus Christ to save me from God's Wrath. See the Book of Romans especially the first two chapters. Jesus Christ did that by taking God's Wrath that was intended for me upon Himself (Jesus Christ). See again Paul in the Book of Romans. It is all about saving us from God's Wrath. That is the Justification message. God's Wrath is no longer directed at me because it has already been directed at Jesus Christ. That is why we stand Justified (finished work) before Almighty God even while we still carry our "sinful nature". This is the lament of the man of Romans chapter 7. Again, because of Jesus Christ the man of Romans chapter seven is saved by Christ's work on the Cross. How? I am glad you asked. Because we now stand Justified before God, God sends us another Free Gift and that is His Grace. What is God's Grace? It is the Holy Spirit who teaches us "all things". That is the Holy Spirit teaches us to Live the Life of Jesus Christ. He does this by "convicting us of sin". The Holy Spirit also prompts us to go to God and "confess" our sin. The Holy Spirit prompts us to ask God to send The Holy Spirit as the conqueror of our sins. The Holy Spirit (see Romans chapter eight) is what makes us "more than conquerors through Jesus Christ". It is all because of what Jesus Christ has done (finished work) that makes us Justified and also sets us on the road to being Sanctified (more than conquerors), and finally Glorified.
miz3 Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 Sorry Sonny and ClubV12 if I attributed the quote to the wrong person. I hope it was a computer error and not mine. If I am to fault it was not intentional.
miz3 Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 Sonny and ClubV12, Thankfully I was able to edit my incorrect attribution on that post. I think it must have been my fault and I again apologize for getting it wrong. I think the post is NOW CORRECT!
Sonny Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 Sonny, God sent Jesus Christ to save me from God's Wrath. Okay, why is God angry with us? I'm just trying to take this a bit further. Act like I'm an unbeliever and you're explaining to me why I need Christ.
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