miz3 Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 There you go again.....How many times to I have to tell you that Jesus didn't HAVE a sinful nature. It wasn't His...it was ours. The humanity that He assumed, as God, was our humanity. He had to assume us in order to legally redeem us, period! What you are saying is preposterous. It is not Biblical. Jesus was not given within His person our "sinful nature". On the Cross is where God laid all of our sins on Jesus Christ making Him guilty but that is NOT the same as Jesus Christ being "infused" with our "sinful nature" which is what you are asserting. Jesus Christ was never ever "infused" with our "sinful nature" at any point in His existence. The "infusion" of our "sinful nature" is just plain NOT Biblical!
miz3 Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 Jesus didn't go to hell. That's a bad translation. He went to the grave. He died, but not any death. He died the 2nd death. What do you think the "second death" is? It is hell!
Sonny Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 I am afraid it is your position concerning the perfection of the Lamb that is weak. Look, let's keep this simple: 1] Did Jesus come to save the unfallen children of Adam or 2] Did Jesus come to save the fallen children of Adam? Answer: # 2 In order for Christ to legally & morally be true to His law (the soul that sins it must die) Christ had to assume our life from Adam. This life came from Mary. In that life, which is our corporate life, Christ as the Son of Man lived a perfect life of obedience to God's law. But since our humanity is a condemned humanity, our life indwelt with our bent-to-self (iniquity), had to die. Hence when "One died" how many died? What does Paul state? "All died". Therefore, "in Christ" God's law has been fulfilled. Both of it's demands - perfect obedience and perfect justice have been accomplished in the doing and dying of Christ. That's the gospel. Why do you question this truth? I don't understand.
Sonny Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 On the Cross is where God laid all of our sins on Jesus Christ
miz3 Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 Yes, this is a very important point. 1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body....50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. When the humanity that Christ assumed died, that humanity died forever. That's the 2nd death. To understand the 2nd death read the following: click here The point is our humanity had to die. Humanity had to take the curse of the law. That curse is goodbye to life forever. Sunday morning God raised His son with a glorified humanity - a spirit body just as we will be raised like the angels. Christ, as God, left our sinful humanity in the grave. And the Son of God took with Him our glorified, sinless humanity to heaven where He represents us in Himself: Col 1:13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. Eph 2:6 and (God) raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus So you are right. We have a glorified humanity that is "in Christ Jesus" right now! This glorified life we will receive from Christ, the new head of the human race, when He returns: 1 Cor 5:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery ; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet ; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. You are talking about the physical body of Jesus Christ and not the "inner nature" of Jesus Christ. As such Jesus Christ was given a new Spiritual physical body. This obviously has nothing whatever to do with Jesus Christ's "inner self" or "inner nature" which was, is, and always will be "sinless nature". The "sinless nature" which Jesus Christ has always had never changed even though Jesus Christ was given a "new" body! That is why Paul says when Jesus Christ went to the Cross and died all our sins God placed on Him died with Christ. It was not the "sinful nature" of Jesus that died because Jesus Christ never had a "sinful nature" either of His own or "infused" on Him. Again, your texts speak of Christ's physical body ONLY!
Sonny Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 As such Jesus Christ was given a new Spiritual physical body.
Sonny Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 I am afraid it is your position concerning the perfection of the Lamb that is weak. Look, let's keep this simple: 1] Did Jesus come to save the unfallen children of Adam or 2] Did Jesus come to save the fallen children of Adam? Answer: # 2 In order for Christ to legally & morally be true to His law (the soul that sins it must die) Christ had to assume our life from Adam. This life came from Mary. In that life, which is our corporate life, Christ as the Son of Man lived a perfect life of obedience to God's law. But since our humanity is a condemned humanity, our life indwelt with our bent-to-self (iniquity), had to die. Hence when "One died" how many died? What does Paul state? "All died". Therefore, "in Christ" God's law has been fulfilled. Both of it's demands - perfect obedience and perfect justice have been accomplished in the doing and dying of Christ. That's the gospel. Why do you question this truth? I don't understand. Well?
Sonny Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 miz3, You've agreed with me that Christ justified the human race at the cross. That's good; others disagree. So I don't understand your opposition to the truth as it is "in Christ". What does justification by faith imply? Why do you need justifying? What does it mean to be just? It means to stand before God's law perfect in every detail. It means that the law is completely satisfied with you. So 2000 + years ago Christ, by His doing & dying, justified all men in Himself before God's law. Who needs justifying? a) Sinners or Saints Answer: a How did God justify YOU so that YOU stand perfect in every detail before God's law? The law has to be satisfied. God did not do away with His law by the coming of Christ. He actually amplified it. Until heaven & earth pass away nothing will pass from the law. That presents a problem: We are sinners! God's law states that since we have sinned & because we fall short of God's love that we have to perish. Why? Because if God allowed any of us into heaven with our "bent-to-self" heaven would cease to be heaven. He must answer His law. So how can God take you, miz3, to heaven and still maintain integrity to His law that justly condemns you to the 2nd death?
miz3 Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 How did He die for my sins? Jesus wasn't guilty...He never sinned. You seem to be dodging this question. I am not dodging because the answer has been all over my statements. I am surprised that you have not seen it. I told you God placed on the person of Jesus Christ all our sins and punished Him as if He had committed those sins. God DID NOT "infuse" those sins into Christ (such position is not Biblical). The fact is that like the perfect lamb in the OT who had placed on it the sins of the actual perpetrator and thus suffered death even though those sins were not taken in internally, the Perfect Lamb of God is like the OT perfect lamb in that God placed the sins of the perpetrators on Him and NOT IN HIM! The lamb in the OT died for the perpetrators sins even though the lamb was totally innocent. Jesus like the OT lamb was not guilty of our sin but nonetheless He died for the guilty even though like the OT lamb Jesus was innocent. Why do keep wanting to make Christ "guilty of something"? Such is not Biblical. What is Biblical is that the Innocent One suffers for the guilty ones. You do not have to somehow twist and manipulate things in order to make Christ "guilty". Jesus Christ was always the pure and unsullied Lamb of God.
Sonny Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 I told you God placed on the person of Jesus Christ all our sins...
Sonny Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 No law will allow the innocent to die instead of the guilty. No law, especially God's law. If I'm wrong, go to court and find a murderer. Tell the judge you'll die for this man and then watch the judge laugh his head off....He'll have you carried off in a little white jacket.
Sonny Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 So how can God take you, miz3, to heaven and still maintain integrity to His law that justly condemns you to the 2nd death? yes?
miz3 Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 miz3, You've agreed with me that Christ justified the human race at the cross. That's good; others disagree. So I don't understand your opposition to the truth as it is "in Christ". What does justification by faith imply? Why do you need justifying? What does it mean to be just? It means to stand before God's law perfect in every detail. It means that the law is completely satisfied with you. So 2000 + years ago Christ, by His doing & dying, justified all men in Himself before God's law. Who need justifying? a) Sinners Saints Answer: a How did God justify YOU so that stand perfect in every detail before God's law. The law has to be satisfied. God did not do away with His law by the coming of Christ. He actually amplified it. Until heaven & earth pass away nothing with pass from the law.
Sonny Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 The Law does care who pays the penalty just that the penalty is paid. This is baloney and you know it! This is why RCC & other non-Christian denominations reject Christianity and label it as fiction. No law will allow the guilty to go free while the innocent is condemned. Let's say you commit a crime - murder. The judge sentences you to death. Your attorney goes to the judge and says, "I'll take his sentence". And the judge will say, "But you aren't the murderer - you aren't the one condemned to death". Then the judge will proceed to laugh his head off. No kidding. It seems when it comes to Christians our moral prinicples goes out the door. "God can do as He pleases", I've been told. And my answer is, "No, He can't - He can't sin ... He can't lie". So when God's law states that the murderer must die the law will not be satisfied with Christ's death because He is innocent. The justice of the law must be satisfied or it's unjust and unethical. That would make God a liar. But God isn't a liar because He satisfied it because of the truth as it is "in Christ"! That's the gospel. All other gospels make God look like a liar or they are legalistic.
Sonny Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 Its not about Justification that satisfies human logic or anything else. This isn't human logic: Ez 18:20 The soul that sins shall die . The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Sonny Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 "You died to the law (it demanded your death) in the body of Christ" Rom 7:4 "Our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be destroyed" Rom 6:6 "When One died - all died" 2 Corinthians 5:14 Christ's death as the Son of Man was a corporate death. It included your life from Adam. Did Adam need saving before or after the fall? Answer: After! Therefore the only humanity that need saving was OUR humanity - indwelt with iniquity. Hence our corporate life from Mary was united with Christ's Divinity and in this union Christ answered all the demands of the law. That's the gospel.
miz3 Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 This is baloney and you know it! This is why RCC & other non-Christian denominations reject Christianity and label it as fiction. No law will allow the guilty to go free while the innocent is condemned. Let's say you commit a crime - murder. The judge sentences you to death. Your attorney goes to the judge and says, "I'll take his sentence". And the judge will say, "But you aren't the murderer - you aren't the one condemned to death". Then the judge will proceed to laugh his head off. No kidding. It seems when it comes to Christians our moral prinicples goes out the door. "God can do as He pleases", I've been told. And my answer is, "No, He can't - He can't sin ... He can't lie". So when God's law states that the murderer must die the law will not be satisfied with Christ's death because He is innocent. The justice of the law must be satisfied or it's unjust and unethical. That would make God a liar. But God isn't a liar because He satisfied it because of the truth as it is "in Christ"! That's the gospel. All other gospels make God look like a liar or they are legalistic. Are you calling the Scripture (OT lamb illustration) "baloney"? You are trying in this post to substitute your human logic and human illustration for the Biblical Illustration of lamb and the real Lamb of God. God can do what He wants. If God does it then its not sin. God is not subject to the law. God is the Law. The Law is not over God. God made the Law! So therefore God decides what pays the price and what does not. God decided that a Perfect Christ the innocent Son of God was sufficient to pay the price. That is Biblical! Pure and simple. It may not fit your logic or what you think is Justice and what you think is Justification but what I have stated is Biblical and I have shown that.
miz3 Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 "You died to the law (it demanded your death) in the body of Christ" Rom 7:4 "Our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be destroyed" Rom 6:6 "When One died - all died" 2 Corinthians 5:14 Christ's death as the Son of Man was a corporate death. It included your life from Adam. Did Adam need saving before or after the fall? Answer: After! Therefore the only humanity that need saving was OUR humanity - indwelt with iniquity. Hence our corporate life from Mary was united with Christ's Divinity and in this union Christ answered all the demands of the law. That's the gospel. Those texts you cite are indeed correct. Look closely at them because not a one of them says anything about Jesus Christ being "infused" with our "sinful nature". Your assertion in regard to Mary is not Biblical. God placed our sins on Christ. He did not "infuse" Christ with our sins. Again, and again, it is like the lamb in the OT. The lamb in the OT was not "infused". Read it. The sins of the real perpetrator were placed on the lamb and thus the lamb died taking with him the sins placed on him. The purely innocent remained innocent all the time but paid the penalty for the real perpetrator who walks away not having to actually pay for his or her sins. Your "infusion" theory does not hold up!
Gustave Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 Jesus didn't go to hell. That's a bad translation. He went to the grave. He died, but not any death. He died the 2nd death SDA heresy knows no bounds - this is another maggoty teaching. Let me guess, just like SDAism can only support the teaching that God "could have" forever ceased to exist..... ...By the teachings of Ellen White - so to with Christ dying the second death. I'm sure Ellen said this as well, right?
Sonny Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny Jesus didn't go to hell. That's a bad translation. He went to the grave. He died, but not any death. He died the 2nd death SDA heresy knows no bounds - this is another maggoty teaching. If something exists after death that would mean that some part of you is immortal. Immortality & righteousness are linked. However, Paul categorically denies that we have any good in us. He says, "I know that in me, that is in my flesh, dwells nothing good." But your church teaches infused grace, which is heresy! You aren't righteous - the pope ain't righteous - in fact "there's none righteous, no, not even one." So what lives after death that's holy? Answer: Nothing! It's at the resurrection that we receive glorified, immortal sinless bodies free from iniquity.
Sonny Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 Look closely at them because not a one of them says anything about Jesus Christ being "infused" with our "sinful nature".
Sonny Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 You are trying in this post to substitute your human logic and human illustration for the Biblical Illustration of lamb and the real Lamb of God.
Sonny Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 I'm sure Ellen said this as well, right? The Bible teaches it, but yes Ellen has something to say: “The teaching given in regard to what is termed ‘holy flesh’ is an error. All may now obtain holy hearts (minds), but it is not correct to claim in this life to have holy flesh. . . . Not a soul of you has holy flesh now. . . . It is an impossibility. If those who speak so freely of perfection in the flesh could see things in the true light, they would recoil with horror from their presumptuous ideas. . . . Let this phase of doctrine be carried a little further, and it will lead to the claim that its advocates cannot sin, that since they have holy flesh, their actions are all holy. What a door of temptation would thus be opened! . . . " And that's what your church teaches - the unholy doctrine of infused grace. The RCC is mother of legalism & self-righteousness. That's how they could burn those who they disagreed with at the sake & yet think they were doing righteousness. They were sick, unholy individuals deceived by their own nature....
miz3 Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 Your confused....Infused grace is a heresy taught by the RCC. I am sorry but you are the one who is confused. I am not teaching any "infusion" Doctrine. You are the one who is teaching that at the incarnation God "infused" our sinful nature into Jesus Christ. That is simply not Biblical.
miz3 Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 Is this like pin the tail on the donkey? I mean how did God place sin, which are actions & thoughts, on Christ? You still haven't answered this.... How does God place our sins on Jesus Christ? That is simple. God does it the same way the sins of the Jew who brought a lamb were placed on that lamb. The sins were placed on that lamb and the lamb was killed as punishment. The Jew who brought the lamb walked away scot free. The same is true for Jesus Christ as it was for the lamb in the OT. How the sins were placed on the lamb by the Jew is the same way God placed the our sins on Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ is not our Lamb, He is as the Bible states, the LAMB OF GOD!
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