Why SDAs Reject the Historic Creeds

[Sonny]

Then Jesus did not die; and that is not Biblical!

Ellen White has it correct: "Humanity died, Deity did not sink and die. That would be impossible."

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Sonny,

I am sorry but Jesus Christ did not take on our "sinful nature". It is simply NOT BIBLICAL!

Then Jesus did not die; and that is not Biblical!

The Bible says that Christ took "the flesh" of fallen humanity...

...With ALL of it's fraility and weakness.

...Contrasted with the body Adam had prior to sin.

Because God "felt" every blow of the whip and felt what it was like to get 'spit on'...

...He knows what it's like to catch a cold or get seriously sick.

...He was in all ways like us APART from "sin".

...And in that context THAT is what the Bible is talking about when it says God knows how to help us!

The Bible does NOT support the following summary of this issue.

Ellen White

Many claim that it was impossible for Christ to be overcome by temptation. Then He could not have been placed in Adam's position; He could not have gained the victory that Adam failed to gain. If we have in any sense a more trying conflict than had Christ, then He would not be able to succor us. But our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. . . . In man's behalf, Christ conquered by enduring the severest test. For our sake He exercised a self-control stronger than hunger or death.--The Desire of Ages, p. 117. {7ABC

Someone "exercises" self - control when they WANT to do something and the urge to do something is pulling on them....

...If you are a sex addict and want to sleep with a hooker that is talking to you.

...You will A ) resist the temptation ( exercise self-control ) or YIELD to that temptation and NOT exercise self-control.

Jesus said prior to being tempted "OF" or "BY" the Devil that the Devil was coming....

....But had NOTHING in Him.

John 14,30

Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me

If you are not GAY and a gay man comes up and tempts you to do stuff to or with him....

...It can be said you were tempted "by" or "of" a gay man.

...However because you are not gay the idea REPULSED you.

...This is how it was for Christ.

James 1,13

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Jesus explicitly said the Devil had NOTHING in Him......

...Therefore Jesus was tempted 'of' or 'by' the Devil externally.

...Just like I showed you how you could be tempted by someone offering something that repulsed you.

However in our case each of us have desires for sin that requires us to resist or exercise self-control......

...To even suggest Christ wanted to do sexual stuff to the cute Jewish girl down the street BUT exercised self control from doing it.

...Is absolutely blasphemous!

...As much as it is absolutely Arian.

[Sonny]

John 14,30Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me

[Overaged]

I've already quoted Ellen White where she states both Christ and Lucifer were "archangels"....

...Lord have Mercry: how much clearer could it be!

Correction; you are simply parroting age-old anti-Adventist apologetics materials. This kind of skulduggery with Ellen White's writings and Adventists beliefs has been tried many times in the past; but has not to date ever been successful. I know you will deny this; and tout your own horn about how you "studied" all this out "for yourself," but that's what they all say.

I have shown you official Roman Catholic beliefs that much more clearly teach a mutated Christ, and all you did was quote from scripturecatholic.com a bunch of Bible verses to "show" that it's in the Bible.

I mean really! Jesus is in a piece of bread?? If that's not a mutated Jesus I don't know what is! And to teach that a human Priest does this mutation of Jesus with his incantations is even more preposterous!

[Sonny]

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

How do we know if some is a false teacher?

2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Then Jesus did not die; and that is not Biblical!

Ellen White has it correct: "Humanity died, Deity did not sink and die. That would be impossible."

This is a classic paradox Sonny because Ellen said it was possible for Diety....

...To A) sin, Loose Salvation C) Die & D) cease to exist PERMANENTLY.

...Unless this is some "other type of Christ" I'm not aware of yet within SDA theology.

Ellen White

Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss.” , The Desire of Ages. Page 49 ‘Unto you a Saviour

Ellen White

Never can the cost of our redemption be realized until the redeemed shall stand with the Redeemer before the throne of God. Then as the glories of the eternal home burst upon our enraptured senses we shall remember that Jesus left all this for us, that He not only became an exile from the heavenly courts, but for us took the risk of failure and eternal loss

Ellen White

Could Satan in the least particular have tempted Christ to sin, he would have bruised the Saviour's head. As it was, he could only touch His heel. Had the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam. Christ and the church would have been without hope.” Signs of the Times, June 9th 1898

Ellen White

Remember that Christ risked all; "tempted like as we are," he staked even his own eternal existence upon the issue of the conflict. Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption. At the foot of the cross, remembering that for one sinner Jesus would have yielded up his life, we may estimate the value of a soul" SDA General Conference Bulletin 1 Dec 1895

So, if Ellen said that "Christ" prior to His Incarnation risked His 'future' Eternal life...

...By coming to "try and save" fallen man.

...Would not that mean, according to Ellen Diety COULD DIE!

[Sonny]

Gustave,

Let me ask you some questions. I hope you answer them....

1] When you accepted Christ do you believe that the Holy Spirit came to dwell in you?

Here's the Bible: 1 Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

2] After conversion you still sin, right? I mean if you didn't then you wouldn't go to confession, right?

3] Since you still sin that means that even after conversion you still retain your sinful nature, right?

4] Now, since you still retain your fallen nature and since you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, that would make the Holy Spirit a sinner, right?

[Gustave]

Correction; you are simply parroting age-old anti-Adventist apologetics materials. This kind of skulduggery with Ellen White's writings and Adventists beliefs has been tried many times in the past; but has not to date ever been successful. I know you will deny this; and tout your own horn about how you "studied" all this out "for yourself," but that's what they all say.

[miz3]

Gustave,

You see what we are up against.

We quote piles of Scripture and in response we get piles of Ellen White to "trump" our Scripture.

SDA are sooooooo impregnated with Ellen White that they are mixed up as to what the Bible actually says. They be sincere in their belief but they are nonetheless mistaken.

The Bible does not support that Jesus Christ was in anyway shape or form impregnated with even the slightest taint of sin in any part of His "inner person". The only place where SDA get such a Doctrine is from the confusing statements of Ellen White.

It is also not possible to get from Scripture that it was possible for Jesus Christ to sin and thus be forever lost. The Bible teaches only (see my voluminous Scripture posts on this thread) that God and Jesus Christ had a plan that could not fail under any circumstances. The Deal was done right from the get go!

If Jesus Christ could have sinned then the Plan of Salvation was not lock cinch. Again, as I have demonstrated from Scripture this is not even remotely possible.

Thus,

1. It was impossible for Jesus Christ to sin.

2. Jesus Christ did not and could not have had an inner "sinful nature" like me.

3. The Plan of Salvation made by God and Jesus Christ was a lock cinch to succeed and nothing was ever going to derail it.

4. No soap opera hanging in the balance and no phew we just pulled it out at the last minute.

The only place to get such wrong ideas about what Scripture actually says is from:

a. Human imagination.

b. Ellen White who wrote what most people of her time thought was the case. She copied many of these same people from the past and her present who held such views of the soap opera scenario. Such things seemed correct to her so she wrote them.

Remember NOT everything she wrote was "inspired" and these soap opera parts did not come DIRECT FROM GOD! They were copied from other human writers.

The "soap opera" is not in Scripture!

[Gustave]

It would be nice if Sonny, Overaged or another SDA here would show me how...

...It's impossible for Diety to die according to Ellen White.

...While at the same time she said over and over again.

...That Christ could have sinned, fallen, died and permanently ceased to exist?

[ClubV12]

"Remember NOT everything she wrote was "inspired"..."

An oft repeated but misleading statement that works to limit confidence in the Testimonies.

I have yet so see, in the Testimonies, a distinct letter or counsel that is not inspired. I hear that rumor a lot, I don't believe it.

Do we need examples of quotes someone or group of someone's THINK are personal opinion from the Testimonies? No, we don't. Because that would only lead to argument and speculation as to which parts are and which parts are not inspired. It's pretty simple in the end, you either believe the prophet, or you don't. If you don't, theres nothing no one can do about it.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Correction; you are simply parroting age-old anti-Adventist apologetics materials. This kind of skulduggery with Ellen White's writings and Adventists beliefs has been tried many times in the past; but has not to date ever been successful. I know you will deny this; and tout your own horn about how you "studied" all this out "for yourself," but that's what they all say.

Yes, I have studied it for myself....

...And if this site allowed attachments I would dump my file folder out on the table.

...Take a picture of it and ask you to eat your words.

...Of course you could pm me your email address and I could send you some proof.

[Overaged]

Gustave,

You see what we are up against.

We quote piles of Scripture and in response we get piles of Ellen White to "trump" our Scripture.

SDA are sooooooo impregnated with Ellen White that they are mixed up as to what the Bible actually says. They be sincere in their belief but they are nonetheless mistaken.

Actually, Gustave is the one who has been piling up the most Ellen White quotes here.

[Overaged]

It would be nice if Sonny, Overaged or another SDA here would show me how...

...It's impossible for Diety to die according to Ellen White.

...While at the same time she said over and over again.

...That Christ could have sinned, fallen, died and permanently ceased to exist?

This is something I will be interested to try exploring with you. But I am out of time for tonight. I may be away a few days; but when I get back I will try to address this for you.

[skyblue888]

What would have been the point for Christ to have come into this world if it wasn't possible for Him to sin?

"Look upon the Saviour uplifted on the cross. Hear that despairing cry, 'My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?'Look upon the wounded hand, the pierced side, the marred feet. Remember that Christ risked all. For our redemption, Heaven itself was imperiled." C.O.L.196.

sky

[skyblue888]

"God permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss." D.A.49.

[Sonny]

It would be nice if Sonny...would show me how...

...It's impossible for Diety to die according to Ellen White.

Sin and mortality are linked. For Deity to die, Deity would have to sin. That's impossible. Why? Because Deity is sinless and therefore Immortal.

[miz3]

What would have been the point for Christ to have come into this world if it wasn't possible for Him to sin?

The whole point was to complete the Plan and to keep the Promise God and Jesus Christ made to humanity.

Statistical probability had nothing to doe with it. It was a plan with a 100% lock cinch guarantee of success.

Read God's Promise to Abraham. God swore by His Own Name because there was no higher way to promise. The Promise to Abraham was lock sure.

Or do think the promise to Abraham was iffy iffy too?

Maybe you think that God could not deliver on His Promise of Isaac. I don't. I think ALL GOD'S PROMISES ARE LOCK SURE TO OCCUR AND THAT THERE IS ZERO CHANCE ANY OF THEM WILL FAIL!

Which of God's promises do think have or had a chance to fail?

[Sonny]

Gustave,

Let me ask you some questions. I hope you answer them....

1] When you accepted Christ do you believe that the Holy Spirit came to dwell in you?

Here's the Bible: 1 Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

2] After conversion you still sin, right? I mean if you didn't then you wouldn't go to confession, right?

3] Since you still sin that means that even after conversion you still retain your sinful nature, right?

4] Now, since you still retain your fallen nature and since you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, that would make the Holy Spirit a sinner, right?

This one's waiting on you, Gustave

[miz3]

Obviously from some of Ellen White's writings she believes that at least some of God's Promises could fail.

You have cited such statements already.

[miz3]

Does that mean when Ellen White writes that God and Jesus Christ could have failed to keep their promises that what she wrote in that regard is "inspired"?

If you believe that, then you have no assurance that God can save you! Salvation may at some point blow up and humanity and God's plans will go down the tube just as they could have gone down the tube in Gethsemane, in the wilderness temptation, on the cross, etc. etc.

Thus, God's Promise to end sin once and for all may not be able to be kept. It depends.

[Sonny]

4] Now, since you [Gustave] still retain your fallen nature and since you [Gustave] have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, that would make the Holy Spirit a sinner, right?

If the Holy Spirit can dwell in you, Gustave, and not be contaminated by your sinful nature, then Christ as God could have taken fallen, humanity into His Deity without compromising Himself.

There's your answer!

[skyblue888]

Obviously from some of Ellen White's writings she believes that at least some of God's Promises could fail.

You have cited such statements already.

It was the humanity of Jesus that was put to the test, not His divinity. God cannot be tempted. Jesus as a man depended wholly upon the Father to fill Him with the Holy Spirit so that as a man living in sinful flesh he might live in harmony with the precepts of the law of God.

So can we.

It was the humanity of Jesus that would have suffered eternal loss if he had sinned, not His divinity. And if He had sinned it would have endangered the whole universe because Satan would have won.

sky

[skyblue888]

I am not pointing the finger at anyone in particular but it needs to be said so that we are all aware.

"In this time evil angels in the form of men will talk with those who know the truth. They will misinterpret and misconstrue the statements of the messengers of God." 3 S.M.411

Especially the statements of Ellen White.

sky

[Gustave]

Gustave,

Let me ask you some questions. I hope you answer them....

1] When you accepted Christ do you believe that the Holy Spirit came to dwell in you?