Why SDAs Reject the Historic Creeds

[Overaged]

That's what I've been doing...

...I'll summarize it again.

Originally Posted By: Literal Translation of the Creed

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father, that is, of the substance [ek tes ousias'] of the Father, God of God, light of light, true God of true God, begotten not made, of the same substance with the Father [homoousion to patri], through whom all things were made both in heaven and on earth; who for us men and our salvation descended, was incarnate, and was made man, suffered and rose again the third day, ascended into heaven and cometh to judge the living and the dead. And in the Holy Ghost. Those who say: There was a time when He was not, and He was not before He was begotten; and that He was made out of nothing (ex ouk onton); or who maintain that He is of another hypostasis or another substance [than the Father], or that the Son of God is created, or mutable, or subject to change, [them] the Catholic Church anathematizes.

OK; but what I am after is something more specific from official Roman Catholic sources that would state clearly " the Catholic Church anathematizes" Adventists for this perceived belief you state we have of the "mutated Jesus." I think you will find that even your own church does not teach that this is what Adventists believe.

[Gustave]

OK; but what I am after is something more specific from official Roman Catholic sources that would state clearly " the Catholic Church anathematizes" Adventists for this perceived belief you state we have of the "mutated Jesus." I think you will find that even your own church does not teach that this is what Adventists believe.

I'm not sure how anything could be more specific than that...

...The Church does not need to re-anathematize heretical teachings.

...Do you agree that the Creed spells out the teaching that Christ could mutate is heretical?

...Do you also agree that Ellen White affirmed JUST THAT?

[miz3]

Nicely said but I was left wondering which Bible version you are using? I was curious about that as I read the wording and how it is expressed

.

NIV 1984.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

OK; but what I am after is something more specific from official Roman Catholic sources that would state clearly " the Catholic Church anathematizes" Adventists for this perceived belief you state we have of the "mutated Jesus." I think you will find that even your own church does not teach that this is what Adventists believe.

I'm not sure how anything could be more specific than that...

...The Church does not need to re-anathematize heretical teachings.

...Do you agree that the Creed spells out the teaching that Christ could mutate is heretical?

...Do you also agree that Ellen White affirmed JUST THAT?

Well, no. I don't agree with any of that and that is why I am asking for specific references.You have clearly mis-stated the Adventist teachings on the subject of "Michael" and/or Jesus, so I am asking you for Catholic-specific references that would support what you are saying. Your exact words were, "the catholic Church teaches," and so I want to know where they teach this. As I said; I have almost every catholic book and paper there is, and I cannot find this in any of them. Your church does not teach what you allege Adventists believe about the Deity, or the nature of Christ. It is important for you to provide these references if they exist, so that we can answer the OP of "Are Catholics right about Adventists?"

[Gustave]

Overaged, I'll try to be as direct as I can possibly be....

...Your participation by answering 'yes' or 'no' should clear up your question rather quickly.

Would you agree that the Catholic Church lays claim to the generation of the Creed I quoted?

...This is where you say 'yes' or 'no'.

Would you agree that the Creed I quoted does not allow belief for a mutating 'Christ'?

...This is where you say 'yes' or 'no'.

If you answered 'yes' to the first question and 'yes' to the second...

...You have a most valid statement of Catholic teaching in this area.

Of course there are more such as from the CCC.

CCC # 202

We firmly believe and confess without reservation that there is only one true God, eternal infinite (immensus) and unchangeable, incomprehensible, almighty and ineffable, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; three persons indeed, but one essence, substance or nature entirely simple

[Overaged]

Overaged, I'll try to be as direct as I can possibly be....

...Your participation by answering 'yes' or 'no' should clear up your question rather quickly.

Would you agree that the Catholic Church lays claim to the generation of the Creed I quoted?

...This is where you say 'yes' or 'no'.

Would you agree that the Creed I quoted does not allow belief for a mutating 'Christ'?

...This is where you say 'yes' or 'no'.

If you answered 'yes' to the first question and 'yes' to the second...

...You have a most valid statement of Catholic teaching in this area.

Of course there are more such as from the CCC.

CCC # 202

We firmly believe and confess without reservation that there is only one true God, eternal infinite (immensus) and unchangeable, incomprehensible, almighty and ineffable, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; three persons indeed, but one essence, substance or nature entirely simple

Lets put it another way then. Give us the specific and official Adventist reference for "mutating Christ."

You have not produced an official Catholic reference that says Adventists teach this "mutating Christ" business either. It's because you can't. Even your own Church does not teach that about us.

As I said earlier, you are incorrectly stating Adventist belief on the nature of Christ, and you can't find either an Adventist, or a Catholic reference (official) for what you are saying.

The Catholic catechism quote you did share was good; it told us what Catholics believe on that point, but you have yet to support with references where your church says that we teach "mutating Christ;" and you did say your church teaches it.

[Gustave]

Lets put it another way then. Give us the specific and official Adventist reference for "mutating Christ."

[miz3]

Quote:

Again, here we go...

...If you consider Questions on Doctrine a valid source.

Q.O.D. page 655

Christ took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation

Q.O.D. page 656

God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weaknesses of humanity. He permitted Him to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss.

Sorry to butt in Gustave but I cannot help it. The info above is not Scriptural. The Bible does not teach this.

One can only come to this conclusion by twisting what the Bible truly says.

Sorry I interrupted.

[Gustave]

Quote:

Again, here we go...

...If you consider Questions on Doctrine a valid source.

Q.O.D. page 655

Christ took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation

Q.O.D. page 656

God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weaknesses of humanity. He permitted Him to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss.

Sorry to butt in Gustave but I cannot help it. The info above is not Scriptural. The Bible does not teach this.

One can only come to this conclusion by twisting what the Bible truly says.

Sorry I interrupted.

I am in ABSOLUTE agreement with you Miz3!

...Not only is it NOT Scriptural it's absolutely HERETICAL.

That's exactly what Overaged keeps asking me to produce....

...I.E. proof that SDA's have this as part of their teachings.

[Overaged]

This is blowing me away Overaged, you continue to ask me to produce Catholic statements....

...That Adventists taught / teach a MUTATING Christ.

...I've produced that VERY teaching multiple times from Ellen White down via SDA denomination publications.

The Pope does NOT have to make a statement SDA's believe in a mutation capable Christ....

...For the simple reason SDA's themselves BOLDLY state a mutation capable Christ.

You asked me to produce Catholic Doctrine in this area & I certainly did....

...I also produced SCORES of Scriptures to back up that Catholic Doctrine.

...Do you, for some reason not believe Ellen White, the Sabbath School quarterly and Q.O.D.

...Classified SDA belief / teaching correctly in this matter?

[miz3]

I am sorry to butt in again. But again I cannot help it.

Overgaged,

Thank you for posting what SDA believe about Jesus Christ. There is one detail that I found missing in that Fundamental Belief. It is in regard to Jesus Christ's human nature. Was His human nature like that of Adam before the fall or was His human nature like that of us after the fall?

This is an extremely key question and makes a world of difference in regard to Gustave's questions about a mutating Christ.

[Overaged]

I am sorry to butt in again. But again I cannot help it.

Overgaged,

Thank you for posting what SDA believe about Jesus Christ. There is one detail that I found missing in that Fundamental Belief. It is in regard to Jesus Christ's human nature. Was His human nature like that of Adam before the fall or was His human nature like that of us after the fall?

This is an extremely key question and makes a world of difference in regard to Gustave's questions about a mutating Christ.

Butting in is always welcome - specially when it is polite...I will wait and see what others say for a bit, and will be back soon.

[ClubV12]

As for me, I believe Christ, being the second Adam, began at the same place the first Adam did. Sinless, with free choice to sin. So, Adam, before the fall, it's the only fair and reasonable way to perform the "test" a second time.

[Gustave]

There is one major problem with what you are saying about Adventists here. We do not teach a "mutating Christ," who somehow changes from God to man, and all such related ideas. The statements you are quoting do not mean that we teach a mutating Christ. They are statements especially picked out to make it seem that way; but it is easily demonstrated that you are wrong about Adventists on this one

The SDA Church ( in keeping with all Adventist bodies ) teaches that...

...Christ COULD HAVE MUTATED ( sinned ) and therefore COULD HAVE FALLEN ( again mutation ).

...Jesus is not God because of His relationship as Son to the Father.

...Jesus IS God because His nature is IDENTICAL to The Father and The Holy Spirit.

...ONE Nature, "God".

Ellen was explicit in that "HAD CHRIST SINNED", Christ would have ceased to exist...

...Just the same as an eaten pizza ceases to exist after being consumed.

I'll attempt to illustrate what I'm talking about here.

Ellen White, Desire of Ages, page 49

Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss.”

Ellen White, signs of the times June 9, 1898

Could Satan in the least particular have tempted Christ to sin, he would have bruised the Saviour's head. As it was, he could only touch His heel. Had the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam. Christ and the church would have been without hope

There are many more such statements, however I'm sure you get the idea....

...Christ was not ( and is not 1/3rd of God ) He IS God.

...And Ellen just said God COULD HAVE MUTATED from perfect Holy God.

...To sinner than passing into a state of CEASING TO EXIST!

...That IS MUTATION by ANY standard.

I seriously wonder why SDA's have such a problem with Thestic Evolution....

...What they are suggesting COULD HAVE HAPPEND to "God".

...Is move evolution than an ape evolving into a "man".

...By infinite light years.

And, had Ellen's hypothetical situation been realized....

...And Christ ( the PRE-Incarnate Christ ) forever ceased to exist.

...That would nulify the SDA belief you quoted whereas it was claimed that Christ was "forever God".

This is the same thing going on with SDA's calling Jesus God...

...Yet meaning something VASTLY different than Catholics or Eastorn Orthodox Christians.

...As well as EVERY denomination aside from Adventist.

[miz3]

Again, I have to say good points Gustave!

[Gustave]

As for me, I believe Christ, being the second Adam, began at the same place the first Adam did. Sinless, with free choice to sin. So, Adam, before the fall, it's the only fair and reasonable way to perform the "test" a second time.

In total contrast to "the Bible" but yes...

...That is certainly reasonable belief within human reasoning.

...If Sacred Scripture is totally ignored.

[Overaged]

As for me, I believe Christ, being the second Adam, began at the same place the first Adam did. Sinless, with free choice to sin. So, Adam, before the fall, it's the only fair and reasonable way to perform the "test" a second time.

The Bible doesn't say that is a test.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

There is one major problem with what you are saying about Adventists here. We do not teach a "mutating Christ," who somehow changes from God to man, and all such related ideas. The statements you are quoting do not mean that we teach a mutating Christ. They are statements especially picked out to make it seem that way; but it is easily demonstrated that you are wrong about Adventists on this one

The SDA Church ( in keeping with all Adventist bodies ) teaches that...

...Christ COULD HAVE MUTATED ( sinned ) and therefore COULD HAVE FALLEN ( again mutation ).

...Jesus is not God because of His relationship as Son to the Father.

...Jesus IS God because His nature is IDENTICAL to The Father and The Holy Spirit.

...ONE Nature, "God".

I am left wondering why you won't reply to the quotes from my last post? Instead; you are choosing quotes only that seem to support what you are saying.

You are quite wrong about what we teach regarding Jesus; and the only way you can deny being wrong is to ignore the kinds of quotes I have been providing, without reconciling the seeming differences. Are you willing to do this, or do you prefer to continue in error?

Your Church does not teach anywhere in their official writings that Adventists teach this about Jesus. But you are correct, that when Catholics say "Jesus;" they mean something different, than protestants/Adventists, when they say Jesus. I wonder if you actually know what that difference is?

[ClubV12]

That's why I put "test" in quotes Overaged, define it as you understand it.

I was addressing the nature of Christ issue. It is a different issue how one may see and understand the "tree of knowledge" in the garden or the temptations of Christ. As a "test" of loyalty to God? But I wouldn't put to fine a point on the definition.

[teresaq]

Overaged, I'll try to be as direct as I can possibly be....

...Your participation by answering 'yes' or 'no' should clear up your question rather quickly.

Would you agree that the Catholic Church lays claim to the generation of the Creed I quoted?

...This is where you say 'yes' or 'no'.

Would you agree that the Creed I quoted does not allow belief for a mutating 'Christ'?

...This is where you say 'yes' or 'no'.

If you answered 'yes' to the first question and 'yes' to the second...

...You have a most valid statement of Catholic teaching in this area.

Of course there are more such as from the CCC.

CCC # 202

We firmly believe and confess without reservation that there is only one true God, eternal infinite (immensus) and unchangeable, incomprehensible, almighty and ineffable, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; three persons indeed, but one essence, substance or nature entirely simple

So the Catholic church does not believe that Jesus "mutated", so to speak, into the God-man?

If God is unchangeable then Jesus was not literally "made flesh".

John 1:14

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[Gustave]

am left wondering why you won't reply to the quotes from my last post? Instead; you are choosing quotes only that seem to support what you are saying.

[Overaged]

Again, SDA's do - THEY teach this and I've demonstrated it multiple times....

...What it appears you are demanding is a Papal statement that SDA's teach a mutation capable Christ?

...Do I have this right? Is this what you are asking me for?

Is your own Church statements combined with your own Prophet not good enough?

[miz3]

Overaged,

You have not answered my question:

Did Jesus Christ after the incarnation have a human nature like:

1. Adam before the fall.

2. Like us after the fall.

This is a crucial question to your discussion with Gustave.

In addition:

What would have happened to Jesus Christ had He sinned?

Again vital question. I appreciate your direct and clear answers to these questions.

[ClubV12]

I guess your looking for a specific reply from Overaged on the question of Christs character. I posted earlier my opinion on that. He had the nature of Adam, before Adam sinned. Where Adam failed, Christ took upon Himself the same qualitites Adam had before his fall, in Christs quest to succeed.

And why not? Why should Christ have less opportunity in His character than Adam had? He was already at a disadvantage living and growing up in sin polluted world, where Adam did not. They were equal in their sinless state at birth (or creation), with both facing the possibility of failure. But where Adam failed, Christ gained the victory.

[Overaged]

Overaged,

You have not answered my question:

Did Jesus Christ after the incarnation have a human nature like:

1. Adam before the fall.

2. Like us after the fall.

This is a crucial question to your discussion with Gustave.

In addition:

What would have happened to Jesus Christ had He sinned?

Again vital question. I appreciate your direct and clear answers to these questions.

Sorry; but I don't see either of these questions as relevant to the discussion.