Why SDAs Reject the Historic Creeds

[epaminondas]

Quote:

A = B thus, regardless of whether you use A or you use B you are getting the same "value". They are interchangeable in any other equation. A and B can exist simultaneously.

A and B are variables. They are ephemeral, have no existence and merely point to something else. Yes, two variables can point to the same value. But if you want to turn "the word" and the "God" in John 1:1 to variables you end up with two names - only names, letters, words, sounds, not persons - pointing to a value - the real God. That means you end up with one real God with two names. That makes sense, but do you think that is what John meant? Why do theological types always thrive on the unclear passages? Maybe because there is a doctoral thesis in an unclear passage, but not in a clear one. I prefer the clear to the unclear any day. It's a good thing us technical types are not so enamoured by the vague, otherwise we still would have been living in caves. Things either work, or they don't.

[teresaq]

teresaq(sda),

Where in the Bible does it say that God (the Father) has a form or a body. Please don't quote the Moses asking to see God.

[miz3]

Teresaq(sda),

I respect you from what I have seen of your posts.

Unfortunately, for me I have seen too many and had experience with too many who have proved to be untrustworthy in regard to being truthful, especially about religious matters. This probably accounts for much of my tone.

That being said I will respond to you regarding Moses.

"And the LORD said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

21 Then the LORD said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen."

Exodus 33:19-23.

Please notice the underlined parts! As I see it when God talks about "face" and "back" He is not talking about an actual face and hindparts but is talking about the "front" and "back" of His Glory!

This passage is not talking about actual body parts like you and I have. It is talking about God's Glory and God's Attributes. That is what Moses saw!

[miz3]

Teresaq(sda),

Now to your next text:

"5 Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD. 6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation."

Exodus 34:5-7.

Again, the underlined part is not God's "form" but God's Attributes are what Moses saw!

[skyblue888]

I did not know that some of us questioned whether God has a form or not. In Philippians 2 we read that before Jesus came to this world He was in the form of God which form He relinquished forever in order to take our human form. In Daniel 7 we are given a desrcription of the Father who certainly has a form. We are created in His image physically, mentally, and spiritually.

sky

[miz3]

Teresaq(sda),

"And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent."

John 5:37.

Quote:

Strong's states that "the external or outward appearance, form figure, shape form, kind"

King James Word Usage - Total: 5

shape 2, fashion 1, sight 1, appearance 1

Thus, the word Jesus used was the word "shape". Just as you and I have shape. This part cannot be denied.

However, was Jesus Christ actually saying that God the Father has a shape?

To me all Christ was saying is that the Jewish questioners did not know who had sent Jesus Christ. See the surrounding verses for this context. Jesus was not using this text to demonstrate that God the Father has a form or shape. Jesus Christ was telling his questioners that they don't who sent Jesus in fact they know nothing because they have not even heard the Father's communications nor do they know what He looks like.

As seen in the Exodus tests of chapter 33 and 34 these same questioners knew nothing about the Attributes of God which is God's shape. If they had been aware of those Attributes then they would know Jesus Christ also.

Christ's message was never to tell us that God the Father has a shape like we do.

[miz3]

Teresaq(sda),

"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven."

Hebrews 1:1-3.

If you use this verse in regard to Jesus Christ, are you using it in regard to Jesus Christ "before" the incarnation, and/or "after" the Cross?

"Before" the incarnation Jesus Christ had the same Attributes of the Father that were displayed before Moses.

"After" the Cross, Jesus has a Spiritual human form (whatever that is). We believe that Jesus Christ still maintains that same Spiritual human form now.

Again the underlined part above is not stating that Jesus Christ and God the Father have physical shape and form. Again, as in Exodus and again in John we have shown that this is referring to the Attributes of God. Jesus Christ whether before the incarnation, before the cross, after the cross has all the same Attributes of God the Father. As such Jesus Christ has always been the very essence and image of God the Father and always will be. There never was a time when God the Father and Jesus Christ were not One in this regard.

This is also why when asked to show them the Father, Jesus Christ said if you have seen me you have seen the Father. It had nothing whatever to do with substance(matter) and the shape of that matter(substance)!

Thank you Teresaq(sda) for letting me explain this.

[skyblue888]

"Let this mind be in you, wich was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, thought it not a thing to be seized upon to be equal with God but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of man." Phil.2:5-7.

So before coming to this world, Christ was in the form of God.

This form He relinquished forever but the glories of the form of God He relinquished only for a while. He is now in His human form glorified with the glories of the form of God.

Daniel the prophet wrote:

"I beheld till the thrones were placed (1844), and the Ancient of Days (God the Father) did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like pure wool; His throne was like the fiery flame, and His wheels as burning fire."

Speaking of Christ, the apostle John writes,

"And in the midst of the seven lamptstands one like the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girded about the breasts with a golden girdle. His head and His hair were white like wool, as white as snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire; and His feet like fine bronze, as if they burned in a furnace; and His voice like the sound of many waters." Rev.1:13-15.

sky

[miz3]

skyblue888,

Thank you for adding that text as well (Philippians 2:5-7).

Again, you see it one way, I see it in an entirely different way.

As I see this text it saying that Jesus Christ is exactly like God the Father. Even though the "word" used is clearly what you and I refer to as our general body shape and form.

However, because of the other texts cited (especially the Exodus chapter 33 and chapter 34) the Bible even though it uses this word "shape" or the word "form" is not using in the same sense we do when referring to ourselves. It is in fact as Exodus states referring to the exact congruency of Jesus Christ and God the Father in regard to their Attributes.

Jesus Christ's humanity did nothing whatsoever to change in any way shape or form the Attributes that both the Son and the Father always possess and have always possessed!

If you have any more texts in this regard they are always appreciated and I would love to add my comments on them.

If you accept my take, fine! If not, that is your privilege.

[Overaged]

skyblue888,

Thank you for adding that text as well (Philippians 2:5-7).

Again, you see it one way, I see it in an entirely different way.

One really cool thing that is happening here, is akin to what happened a number of times with the Apostles in the Bible. If, for example, you were to read the account of the crucifixion; you would see each of the four gospels note slightly different things about this event. Those differences don't necessarily make one right and the other one wrong; it merely indicates different people see different thing in the same thing. LOL; if that makes sense. It's when one starts to just pool all these things (differences) together that the scriptures actually come alive to the believer.

In a sense; the various creeds are like this. and there are quite simply some items in some of them that really are unBiblical. However, it does not follow that we should always busy ourselves opposing such differences. While it is OK to not accept one of the "Historic Creeds," for such reasons; it is not OK to promote hatred or ill will to anyone because they see it differently than we do:

Avoid Contention; Promote Harmony

Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom. Proverbs 13:10. {CTr 330.1}

The Reformation was greatly retarded by making prominent differences on some points of faith and each party holding tenaciously to those things where they differed. We shall see eye-to-eye erelong, but to become firm and consider it your duty to present your views in decided opposition to the faith or truth, as it has been taught by us as a people is a mistake and will result in harm, and only harm, as in the days of Martin Luther. Begin to draw apart and feel at liberty to express your ideas without reference to the views of your associates, and a state of things will be introduced that you do not dream of. {CTr 330.2}

My husband had some ideas on some points differing from the views taken by his brethren. I was shown that however true his views were, God did not call for him to put them in front before his brethren and create differences of ideas. . . . {CTr 330.3}

Speculative ideas should not be agitated, for there are peculiar minds that love to get some point that others do not accept, and argue and attract everything to that one point, urging that point, magnifying that point, when it is really a matter that is not of vital importance and will be understood differently. Twice I have been shown that everything of a character to cause our ministers to be diverted from the very points now essential for this time should be kept in the background. {CTr 330.4}

Christ did not reveal many things that were truth, because it would create a difference of opinion and get up disputations. But young men who have not passed through the experience we have had would as soon have a brush as not. Nothing would suit them better than [to] have a sharp discussion. . . . {CTr 330.5}

[Dr. Waite]

[Overaged]

IS BAPTIZING IN THE NAME OF THE "FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT" THE SAME "ONE BAPTISM" SPOKEN OF IN THE NICENE CREED AS THE BAPTISM IN THE NAME OF "JESUS CHRIST" SPOKEN ABOUT IN ACTS 2:38?

Thankyou for bringing up this question Dr Waite. I guess the first question that popped into my mind when I read your reply was "Is This Nicene Creed Bible?" Is this creed what we use to determine our belief, or, do we use the Bible to test the creed?

Personally; I have never worried about your question because the Bible is clear that while there are 3 Persons, there is only One God. "One God" as used in the Old Testament, is in the collective sense as in meaning The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. All 3 are equally God.

You can view details about the pertinent beliefs held by Adventists here. See # 2, 3, 4, & 5.

Please let me know what you think of the Biblical texts used in each of the beliefs to explain them.

[teresaq]

Teresaq(sda),

I respect you from what I have seen of your posts.

Unfortunately, for me I have seen too many and had experience with too many who have proved to be untrustworthy in regard to being truthful, especially about religious matters. This probably accounts for much of my tone.

[teresaq]

I did not know that some of us questioned whether God has a form or not. In Philippians 2 we read that before Jesus came to this world He was in the form of God which form He relinquished forever in order to take our human form. In Daniel 7 we are given a desrcription of the Father who certainly has a form. We are created in His image physically, mentally, and spiritually.

sky

I fear we are a dying breed. The more I read the pioneers the more I see what they were contesting regarding spiritualism.

[Overaged]

Excellent posts about how we "see" and "hear" God!

[teresaq]

Teresaq(sda),

"And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent."

John 5:37.

Quote:

Strong's states that "the external or outward appearance, form figure, shape form, kind"

King James Word Usage - Total: 5

shape 2, fashion 1, sight 1, appearance 1

Thus, the word Jesus used was the word "shape". Just as you and I have shape. This part cannot be denied.

However, was Jesus Christ actually saying that God the Father has a shape?

To me all Christ was saying is that the Jewish questioners did not know who had sent Jesus Christ. See the surrounding verses for this context. Jesus was not using this text to demonstrate that God the Father has a form or shape. Jesus Christ was telling his questioners that they don't who sent Jesus in fact they know nothing because they have not even heard the Father's communications nor do they know what He looks like.

As seen in the Exodus tests of chapter 33 and 34 these same questioners knew nothing about the Attributes of God which is God's shape. If they had been aware of those Attributes then they would know Jesus Christ also.

Christ's message was never to tell us that God the Father has a shape like we do.

In looking up the texts where the Father spoke from heaven it appears most did not "hear", while John the baptist did, as well as the disciples. Here is one,

Luk 9:33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.

Luk 9:34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.

Luk 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Luk 9:36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept [it] close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

So it appears that Jesus was quite accurate in saying that those contesting Him had not heard God's voice. The rest of your points seems to prove that "shape", "form", does indeed mean "shape", "form", and that God does have one.

This discussion makes me think about all that I see and know about. For a Being that is supposedly "nothing" He certainly has made quite a bit of physical, tangible, things. The planets contained in we-don't-know-how-many galaxies, all very real and visible. Everything in and on this planet to see, smell, touch, hear.

I just have to wonder why a bodiless spirit would do that? For the many Christians who believe they "return" to some kind of bodiless spirit at death I wonder what joys they look forward to-or do they just accept in "blind-faith" nothingness?

[teresaq]

I appreciate the encouragement. Amazing what one can do when one relies wholly on God instead of self. And how much more respectful one can be. :)

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

IS BAPTIZING IN THE NAME OF THE "FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT" THE SAME "ONE BAPTISM" SPOKEN OF IN THE NICENE CREED AS THE BAPTISM IN THE NAME OF "JESUS CHRIST" SPOKEN ABOUT IN ACTS 2:38?

Thankyou for bringing up this question Dr Waite. I guess the first question that popped into my mind when I read your reply was "Is This Nicene Creed Bible?" Is this creed what we use to determine our belief, or, do we use the Bible to test the creed?

Personally; I have never worried about your question because the Bible is clear that while there are 3 Persons, there is only One God. "One God" as used in the Old Testament, is in the collective sense as in meaning The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. All 3 are equally God.

You can view details about the pertinent beliefs held by Adventists here. See # 2, 3, 4, & 5.

Please let me know what you think of the Biblical texts used in each of the beliefs to explain them.

ANSWER: NO, THE NICENE CREED IS NOT PART OF THE CANON OF SCRIPTURES. ALSO, THE CREED OF SDA BELIEFS 2, 3, 4, & 5 ARE NOT PART OF THE CANON OF SCRIPTURES EITHER. THE SDA BELIEFS 2, 3, 4, & 5 ARE A CREED BECAUSE THE NAME "Seventh-day Adventist" is copyrighted and if a body of believers use that name and do not entirely agree with SDA beliefs 2, 3, 4, & 5 which were written by man and not God and they are taken to court and threatened with jail time.

[Overaged]

Thanks for your reply Dr Waite

What did you think of the scriptures used in the "SDA Creed?"/s that I referred to? Did any of them make sense to you, or appear to refute anything in The Nicene Creed? It can be very useful to compare & contrast these things.

I do know a bit of what you say re the name Seventh-day Adventist being copyrighted. To me, that is a very Biblical civil action that is sometimes needed for those who say publicly they are Adventists, yet knowingly misrepresent what the official organization does not condone. I know some people don't like that, but I think it is best that way.

[Dr. Waite]

Thanks for your reply Dr Waite

What did you think of the scriptures used in the "SDA Creed?"/s that I referred to? Did any of them make sense to you, or appear to refute anything in The Nicene Creed? It can be very useful to compare & contrast these things.

[Overaged]

The "SDA Creed" answers this question.

According to the Trinitarian doctrine, when the Bible says that “God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son,” it really means that God shared his fellow, or pal, with man. According to this teaching, Jesus did not call God his Father because he was his Father, but rather “to bring us into a close and personal relationship with God” (Seventh-day Adventists Believe, p. 26).

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Thanks for your reply Dr Waite

What did you think of the scriptures used in the "SDA Creed?"/s that I referred to? Did any of them make sense to you, or appear to refute anything in The Nicene Creed? It can be very useful to compare & contrast these things.

I have NO problem with the scriptures used in the "SDA Creed", but I have a problem with the interpretation of the scriptures used. The real issue is "Who is Jesus Christ?" Jesus himself asked his disciples this question. See Matthew 16:15.

The "SDA Creed" answers this question.

Yes; it does answer the question very well, and from the Bible. Here is the entire page 26, verbatim. Look how much different it is than your version of it:

26 • SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS BELIEVE...

found both in God’s revelations through the Scriptures and through nature.

The God of the Scriptures

The Bible reveals God’s essential qualities through His names, activities,

and attributes.

God’s Names. At the time the Scriptures were written, names were important, as they still are in the Near East and Orient. There, a name is considered to reveal the character of the bearer—his true nature and identity. The importance of God’s names, disclosing His nature, character, and qualities, are revealed in His command, “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain” (Ex. 20:7).

David sang: “Praise to the name of the Lord Most High” (Ps. 7:17). “Holy and awesome is His name” (Ps. 111:9) “Let them praise the name of the Lord, for His

name alone is exalted” (Ps.148:13). The Hebrew names El and Elohim (“God”)

reveal God’s divine power. They depict God as the strong and mighty One, the God of Creation (Gen. 1:1; Ex. 20:2; Dan. 9:4). Elyon (“Most High”) and El Elyon (“God Most High”) focus on His exalted status (Gen:14:18-20; Isa. 14:14). Adonai (“Lord”) pictures God as Almighty Ruler (Isa. 6:1; Ps. 35:23). These names emphasize the majestic and transcendent character of God.

Other names reveal God’s willingness to enter into a relationship with people. Shaddai (“Almighty”) and El Shaddai (“God Almighty”) portray the Almighty God, the source of blessing and comfort (Ex. 6:3; Ps. 91:1).

The name Yahweh,3 translated Jehovah or LORD, stresses God’s covenant faithfulness and grace (Ex. 15:2, 3; Hosea 12:5, 6). In Exodus 3:14, Yahweh describes Himself as “I am who I am,” or “I shall be what I shall be,” indicating His unchangeable relation to His people.

On occasions God even revealed Himself more intimately as “Father” (Deut. 32:6; Isa. 63:16; Jer. 31:9; Mal. 2:10), calling Israel “My Son, and My firstborn” (Ex. 4:22; cf. Deut.32:19).

Except for Father, the New Testament names for God carry equivalent meanings to those of the Old Testament. In the New Testament, Jesus used Father to bring us into a close and personal relationship with God (Matt.6:9; Mark 14:36; cf. Rom. 8:15; Gal. 4:6).

God’s Activities.

Bible writers spend more time describing God’s activities than His being. He is introduced as Creator (Gen 1:1; Ps. 24: 1, 2), Upholder of the world (Heb. 1:30), and Redeemer and Saviour (Deut. 5:6; 2 Cor. 5:19), carrying the burden for humanity’s ultimate destiny. He makes plans (Isa. 46:11), predictions (Isa. 46:10),and promises (Deut. 15:6; 2 Peter 3:9). He forgives sins (Ex. 34:7) and consequently deserves our worship

[Gustave]

Sounds like you believe the Father, Son and HS are one Being, in which case if Christ had sinned then "God" would have ceased to exist, not just Christ,in your view

[Overaged]

Yes, THAT'S the MYSTERY Sacred Scripture and the witness of Sacred Tradition teaches us...

...There is ONE ETERNAL GOD 'WHO' exists as a mutual indwelling of Three Persons.

...Since that's the way God has "always been" - tamper with that & you NO LONGER HAVE GOD.

Where do you think my concept of God is "not by the Bible" teresaq?

...Be specific.

What do you mean "sacred tradition?" You must be a Roman Catholic? Or, atleast favorable to their views. Some of them still are stuck in the false rut of accusing Adventists of being "Arian;" in their beliefs, but you have not produced any evidence of this. Many have tried to do this before you; and failed.

[miz3]

I just have to wonder why a bodiless spirit would do that? For the many Christians who believe they "return" to some kind of bodiless spirit at death I wonder what joys they look forward to-or do they just accept in "blind-faith" nothingness?

I did not say God was a "bodiless spirit". What I did say was that God is "SPIRIT"!

What "SPIRIT" means I do not know, nor does anyone else know. The Bible is SILENT on what "SPIRIT" means and what the details are. That is why Moses only saw the Attributes of God.

As to the "state of the dead" nothing in the Bible states that they too are bodiless spirits.

1. Ecclesiastes chapter nine states that the dead have nothing more to do with anything under the sun. That means no ghostlike spirits of aunt "tilly" will come back to us and communicate with us. "Spiritualism" is clearly not Biblical based on this clear text alone. What actually happens after death humans know little about.

2. We also know that our sinful flesh that we were born with goes back to dust.

The idea that we are stuck between two alternatives:

1. Bodiless Spirit

2. Shape, form, substance, etc.

is not true. Just because you and I can not think of anything else in regard to God does not mean that God is stuck on those two alternatives, nor does it mean that these are the only two alternatives that are available.