Why SDAs Reject the Historic Creeds

[miz3]

Overaged,

Whether they are relevant or not could you please answer these questions.

I don't understand your reluctance to answer these questions. I repeat them again here.

Did Jesus Christ after the incarnation have a human nature like:

1. Adam before the fall.

2. Like us after the fall.

In addition:

What would have happened to Jesus Christ had He sinned?

[ClubV12]

"I don't understand your reluctance to answer these questions. I repeat them again here."

I think your #1 miz3!

Easily #1 in fact, thee most arrogant person on this web site.

[Gustave]

No; I am sorry my friend. You have not demonstrated what we teach. And like I said; it is not an official teaching of your church that we teach a "mutated Christ."

[Sonny]

Did Jesus Christ after the incarnation have a human nature like:

1. Adam before the fall.

2. Like us after the fall.

1] Who did Jesus come to save?

a] Those with sinless natures like Adam before the fall?

or

b] Those with sinful natures like Adam after the fall?

Answer: b

To answer your question....Jesus is God. At the incarnation a body was made for Him (keep in mind God is spirit). This body was our corporate humanity after the fall. So while Christ remained Himself (God) He took...or He assumed our fallen humanity in the womb of Mary.

He did this because God's law must be fulfilled. Now what does the law require of you and me?

1] Perfection of nature.

2] Perfect performance.

2] Death, the 2nd death, if we don't comply with 1 & 2.

So when Christ assumed us He assumed a humanity that stood condemned and under the curse.

For thirty something years He lived a perfect life of obedience. So our humanity, in Him, was made obedient to God's law.

At the cross our humanity died forever. That's the 2nd death.

Sunday Morning God raised Christ, as God (whose life was dormant) with a glorified humanity free from indwelling sin (i.e., the sin nature).

In so doing He raised US and took this humanity to heaven.

Hence "in Christ" we obeyed all 3 requirements.

[miz3]

Gustave,

Those texts you quoted to overaged are most powerful!

Unfortunately most SDA don't like that concept. Its too deterministic. Most SDA like the idea of the "soap opera" where everything hangs in the balance until the last dramatic moment and then by smallest of hairbreadths Jesus Christ made the right decision.

This why they ignore those Bible texts you quoted and also Romans chapter nine. They quote Ellen White on these issues rather than believe the clear Word of God.

I see others have weighed in on my questions to overaged and that is fine since I like hearing from all.

I just don't understand why overaged is too scared to answer my questions. Maybe I have misjudged him?

[miz3]

I see ClubV12 takes one side while Sonny takes the other side of the issue in regards to Jesus Christ's human nature. Very interesting!

[Overaged]

No; it does not mean a mutation Christ at all. When you look at the quotes from both sides here; it simply shows how Jesus had BOTH natures at the Incarnation. Are you, as a "Papist," denying this fundamental doctrine of scripture?

The Bible tells us that in the past; there was "war in heaven." This "war" occurred with perfect beings, who had not human nature. Some of those perfect beings made a conscious choice to sin and rebel against God.

Like-wise, the Bible tells us that the Christian believer today, who has not the divine nature, can also make the same choice. This choice is not related to being deity, or not being deity. It is all about relationship to God, and our conscious choices we make about Him.

It is very plain from these two ideas, that either deity or human nature can sin; if they make that choice. Ellen White was teaching this very thing when talking about the Incarnated Christ. Adventist teachings point to The Incarnated Christ; not a mutated Christ.

And BTW; you are not safe just because of what denomination you belong to; either am I. That is not something you will find in the Bible.

Certainly; it appears that you have convinced yourself that Adventist teachings point to a mutated Christ of some kind being possible; but it's still like I said; your own church's official writings do not say this about the Seventh-day Adventist Church. This is why I hold to the position that you are wrong about Adventists. Hope this info helps.

[miz3]

Overaged,

Are you saying that Divinity could sin?

[Gustave]

No; it does not mean a mutation Christ at all.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

No; it does not mean a mutation Christ at all.

Again, it's "MUTATION CABAPLE" Christ.

Originally Posted By: overaged

When you look at the quotes from both sides here; it simply shows how Jesus had BOTH natures at the Incarnation. Are you, as a "Papist," denying this fundamental doctrine of scripture?

I've demonstrated I don't deny Jesus' "Natures" while Ellen White certainly did...

...Notice the time hack Overaged.

Ellen White

He became subject to temptation, endangering as it were, His divine attributes. Satan sought, by the constant and curious devices of his cunning, to make Christ yield to temptation.” (Letter 5, 1900, as quoted in the Seventh-day Adventists Bible Commentary Volume 7 page 926)

You have mysteriously chosen to avoid my comment re "war in heaven." (Rev 12:7) None who sinned then in heaven and rebelled against God had human nature. They made a choice. That choice is unmistakable. It was not "humanity" that made those choices in heaven, right?

Regarding your by now, repetition of the above quotes in your last post, I will say that unless you take Adventist writings into the intended context; they will always remain a pretext for your "deprogramming" that you have stated you are directing me into. I am always happy for your questions, and will continue to try to show how I see it so that you may compare and contrast our respective views. I might add though that I don't think your "deprogramming" is working very well yet.

For most Adventists, Ellen White's published statements are conclusive as to her teaching on this question of the nature of Christ. In The Desire Of Ages she writes that "sin could be resisted and overcome, only through the mighty agency of the Third Person of the Godhead, who would come up with no modified energy; but in the fullness of divine power." (see page 671). This is how the text has always read, even since it's very first printing in 1898. Opponents of Ellen White, or of Seventh-day Adventists cannot escape the clear interpretation of this and many other passages she wrote, saying the same thing.

This teaching; by Ellen G White, of course implies that Jesus overcame by this same Power by which we are to overcome. The Holy Spirit tended to Jesus, who had clothed His divinity, with humanity; meaning that He had both natures at the same time; and that He made the conscious choice to not sin while Incarnate.

Although the Bible says He was "made sin;" Jesus did not sin. "He was treated as we deserve; that we might be treated as He deserves." (Desire of Ages, pg. 25) It is in this sense only that Jesus was "made sin."

[miz3]

Powerful stuff Gustave!

Is it any wonder why many SDA willingly avoid answering questions directly concerning their position on the Nature of God and the Nature of Jesus Christ. Not to mention other Doctrines like the Sanctuary, the 2300, the Investigative Judgment, etc. Even when they talk out of both sides of their God created mouth they refuse to admit the sin of such ways.

The reason SDA hold such inconsistencies is because they RELY ON ELLEN WHITE TOO SUCH AN EXTENT that they forget that they are supposed to be a Bible and Bible only Church.

Ellen White so dominates the theological SDA landscape that it boggles the mind.

You nailed it by demonstrating that a mutable Christ (Divinity included) would be forever dead and the full Godhead destroyed is not Biblical. It is not even a close call.

Most SDA take this theology in stride not even realizing the CONSEQUENCES OF WHAT THEY ARE BELIEVING!

The blasphemy to the Godhead is breathtaking!

[Overaged]

You nailed it by demonstrating that a mutable Christ (Divinity included) would be forever dead and the full Godhead destroyed is not Biblical. It is not even a close call.

The blasphemy to the Godhead is breathtaking!

It would be impossible for divinity to die under the circumstances of the incarnation; for the very reason that Jesus had both natures when He visited our Earth. When His "humanity" died on Calvary, the only way even that was possible is because He was The perfect Sacrifice, the unblemished Lamb, totally FREE from the stain of having sinned.

Are you denying that Jesus was the Perfect Sacrifice?

[miz3]

Overaged,

First, are you not confident in yourself to answer my questions concerning the Nature of Christ visa vi Adam and his sinless nature or our sinful nature?

Second, you state that Jesus Christ overcame temptation by the Holy Spirit (Divinity). You also state that Jesus Christ in a singular entity had both a full human nature and a full Divine Nature. Divinity is Divinity! There are not separate Divinities. To be Divine in the Biblical sense is to be Divine period. The Bible is not like Greek Mythology where the godly entities have different divine attributes that other gods do not have. So if Jesus Christ overcame by Divine power then He overcame by the same power He possessed. Which means Jesus Christ is not and did not have a congruent experience as we humans have. Your parallelism does not hold up.

Either Jesus Christ was Divine in the same way as the Father and the same way as the Holy Spirit or He was not. If He was not then you are like Greek Myth and not at all like the Bible.

Which is it overaged?

[Overaged]

Overaged,

First, are you not confident in yourself to answer my questions concerning the Nature of Christ visa vi Adam and his sinless nature or our sinful nature?

Second, you state that Jesus Christ overcame temptation by the Holy Spirit (Divinity). You also state that Jesus Christ in a singular entity had both a full human nature and a full Divine Nature. Divinity is Divinity! There are not separate Divinities. To be Divine in the Biblical sense is to be Divine period. The Bible is not like Greek Mythology where the godly entities have different divine attributes that other gods do not have. So if Jesus Christ overcame by Divine power then He overcame by the same power He possessed. Which means Jesus Christ is not and did not have a congruent experience as we humans have. Your parallelism does not hold up.

Either Jesus Christ was Divine in the same way as the Father and the same way as the Holy Spirit or He was not. If He was not then you are like Greek Myth and not at all like the Bible.

Which is it overaged?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[miz3]

Are you denying that Jesus was the Perfect Sacrifice?

You are avoiding the issue. Just answer the questions straight up and stop trying to weasel out by throwing in red herrings. (did I just mix metaphors?)

Nevertheless, you are purposefully not answer direct questions that should have a direct answer.

Certainly we SDA can do better than this?

[miz3]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: miz3

Overaged,

First, are you not confident in yourself to answer my questions concerning the Nature of Christ visa vi Adam and his sinless nature or our sinful nature?

Second, you state that Jesus Christ overcame temptation by the Holy Spirit (Divinity). You also state that Jesus Christ in a singular entity had both a full human nature and a full Divine Nature. Divinity is Divinity! There are not separate Divinities. To be Divine in the Biblical sense is to be Divine period. The Bible is not like Greek Mythology where the godly entities have different divine attributes that other gods do not have. So if Jesus Christ overcame by Divine power then He overcame by the same power He possessed. Which means Jesus Christ is not and did not have a congruent experience as we humans have. Your parallelism does not hold up.

Either Jesus Christ was Divine in the same way as the Father and the same way as the Holy Spirit or He was not. If He was not then you are like Greek Myth and not at all like the Bible.

Which is it overaged?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Once again avoidance of my questions.

Did Jesus Christ have a humans nature:

1. like Adam before the fall?

2. like you and I after the fall?

It is a straight up question now give a straight up answer.

[Overaged]

It is a straight up question now give a straight up answer.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[miz3]

Gustave,

It is sad to say given the answers overaged has given compared to the statements he made at the beginning in which it appeared we might have an honest and truthful dialogue has gone up in smoke.

I guess you were right and I was wrong about overaged.

When SDA are this way it makes people like pastorchick flourish. It is no wonder that SDA bleed so many off-shoots and independent ministries.

I am beginning to understand why Jesus wept as He looked over Jerusalem.

We can expect even the simplest of honesty.

[Sonny]

Read this, guys:

The truth as it is in Christ.

[Gustave]

Powerful stuff Gustave!

Is it any wonder why many SDA willingly avoid answering questions directly concerning their position on the Nature of God and the Nature of Jesus Christ. Not to mention other Doctrines like the Sanctuary, the 2300, the Investigative Judgment, etc. Even when they talk out of both sides of their God created mouth they refuse to admit the sin of such ways.

[Gustave]

You have mysteriously chosen to avoid my comment re "war in heaven." (Rev 12:7) None who sinned then in heaven and rebelled against God had human nature. They made a choice. That choice is unmistakable. It was not "humanity" that made those choices in heaven, right?

[Sonny]

Read this, guys:

The truth as it is in Christ.

Dudes...you don't get it! The law demands our death. We had to die and we did "in Christ". Otherwise God threw out His law.

[Gustave]

Read this, guys:

The truth as it is in Christ.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: part of the article

In order to save fallen humanity, God had to first qualify Christ to be our substitute so that He could live and die in our place. God did this by uniting Christ’s divinity to our corporate humanity, that needed redeeming, in the incarnation. This is the in Christ motif [see 1 Corinthians 1:30]. Through this union Christ became the second or last Adam (the word adam in Hebrew has a collective significance and means mankind).

As a member of the R.C.C. I agree that Christ's Divine Nature......Was UNITED ( not blended or mixed ) with human nature.

Whose human nature?

[miz3]

I looked at your post too, Sonny.

I don't want you to think that I ignored you and your point. I didn't.

I know how much in agreement you are with Jack Sequeira. I agree with much of what is said.