Sonny Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 ...When Ellen says I don't care what Ellen says. I am not here to defend her. She is not my pope, Jesus Christ is! Yes, I'll quote her, but she's not infallible - neither am I....But we can depend on the Scriptures - especially Paul because he was set aside (by Jesus Himself) to explain the gospel. Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord... 1 Cor 15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. .... 9 For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain ; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
Overaged Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 You are certainly correct Sonny. Gustave is the one who keeps bringing up Ellen White here. It actually would be a nice change to just discuss this subject using only the Bible. "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
miz3 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 God the Father sent His Son - i.e., the Son of God - and in the womb of Mary (a sinner) He (God the Father) united Christ's Deity with our fallen humanity. Mary's egg had nothing to do with it. Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit only! It was not the Holy Spirit and Mary?????? Mary was just the incubator. Jesus Christ had none of Joseph (male) and none of Mary (female) genes.
miz3 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Let's look at the context: 1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life-- 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us-- 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full. 5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. Clearly the context is speaking of God the Father, not Christ....Event then, from the beginning Christ was God. It was at the incarnation that Christ's Deity was united to our fallen humanity. Jesus is God. Jesus Christ Himself said "if you have seen me you have seen the Father"! Jesus Christ also said, "the Father and I are One"! So if you talk about the Attributes or Conditions of the Father you must also give those same Attributes and Conditions to Jesus Christ. Therefore in Jesus Christ is "no darkness". The text applies just as much to Jesus Christ as it applies to the Father.
miz3 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Sonny, In addition John the first chapter states that Jesus Christ the Word was Light. It came to dispel the darkness. You cannot dispel darkness with darkness. Jesus Christ was 100% Light. Not a shred of darkness was in Him! Thus, no "sinful nature" like you and I. The "sinful nature" would have been darkness.
miz3 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Sonny, The only time Jesus Christ was "made sin for us" was when on the Cross! At no other time was Jesus Christ "made sin". You keep wanting Jesus Christ to "made sin" in the womb. This is not so! ONLY ON THE CROSS WAS JESUS EVER MADE SIN! If Jesus Christ was "made sin" before the Cross He would not have been a "spotless" Lamb!
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 12, 2011 Administrators Posted June 12, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny God the Father sent His Son - i.e., the Son of God - and in the womb of Mary (a sinner) He (God the Father) united Christ's Deity with our fallen humanity. Mary's egg had nothing to do with it. Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit only! It was not the Holy Spirit and Mary?????? Mary was just the incubator. Jesus Christ had none of Joseph (male) and none of Mary (female) genes. What proof or evidence of that theory do you have? "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Overaged Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny Let's look at the context: 1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life-- 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us-- 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full. 5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. Clearly the context is speaking of God the Father, not Christ....Event then, from the beginning Christ was God. It was at the incarnation that Christ's Deity was united to our fallen humanity. Jesus is God. Jesus Christ Himself said "if you have seen me you have seen the Father"! Jesus Christ also said, "the Father and I are One"! So if you talk about the Attributes or Conditions of the Father you must also give those same Attributes and Conditions to Jesus Christ. Therefore in Jesus Christ is "no darkness". The text applies just as much to Jesus Christ as it applies to the Father. Correct. There was never any "darkness" in Jesus; but in His human nature He was subjected to darkness... "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Overaged Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Sonny, The only time Jesus Christ was "made sin for us" was when on the Cross! At no other time was Jesus Christ "made sin". You keep wanting Jesus Christ to "made sin" in the womb. This is not so! ONLY ON THE CROSS WAS JESUS EVER MADE SIN! If Jesus Christ was "made sin" before the Cross He would not have been a "spotless" Lamb! Where does the Bible say this? "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
miz3 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Here is what the Bible says: "This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly. 20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[c] because he will save his people from their sins." Matthew 1:18-21. If you notice it says "conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit". It no where states that the it was the Holy Spirit and Mary that "conceived". It was a singular act of the Holy Spirit! Again: "“How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” 35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[c] the Son of God." Luke 1:34-35. Again it states that the Holy Spirit is the One working. It does not say the Holy Spirit united with Mary's stuff made the "Holy One". The Holy Spirit did a Singular Work.
Sonny Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Mary's egg had nothing to do with it. Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit only! God, through the Spirit, united Christ's Divinity with our humanity from Mary's womb.
Sonny Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God." Luke 1:34-35. Notice that "the Son of God" is referred to as the "holy one". This refers to Christ's Deity. Go to Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God-- 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son (i.e., the Son of Man), who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord The Son of God refers to His Holiness The Son of Man refers to His assumed humanity - a descendant of David according to the flesh
Sonny Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Sonny, The only time Jesus Christ was "made sin for us" was when on the Cross! 21 He (God the Father) made Him (Christ as God) who knew no sin (again, as God) to be sin so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. Did you get that? God, made Christ who as God knew no sin - to be sin (as the Son of Man) so that we (humanity) might become righteous in Christ. That's the reason God put you into Christ...in order to rewrite your history. If He didn't then you can kiss heaven goodbye. The only alternative then is to earn your way in..... I don't understand why you are fighting me? I thought we were united on the gospel....
Sonny Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 The truth of the two Adams is one of the most neglected and misunderstood doctrines of Scripture. Yet it is one of the most important teachings of the Word pertaining to mankind’s salvation. This is because the eternal destiny of all humanity is wrapped up in these two men, Adam and Christ (the second Adam). Scripture clearly teaches that “in Adam all die” and “in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22). According to the Bible, God created all men in one man (i.e., Adam — Gen. 1:27, 28; Gen. 2:7; Acts 17:26). Satan ruined all men in one man (i.e., Adam — Romans 5:12, 18; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22); and God redeemed all men in one Man (i.e., Christ — 1 Corinthians 1:30; Ephesians 1:3; 2:5-6). It is this writer’s conviction that we can never fully understand or appreciate all the implications and privileges of our salvation in Christ unless we come to grips and realize our situation “in Adam.” Two passages in the New Testament explain in some detail this vital doctrine of the two Adams, Romans 5:12-21, which many Bible scholars consider the high point of Romans; and 1 Corinthians 15:19-23, 45-49. In order to understand this truth it is important we look carefully at these two passages. [Jack Sequeira] Please read the rest on the below link: The two Adams
Gustave Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 You are certainly correct Sonny. Gustave is the one who keeps bringing up Ellen White here. It actually would be a nice change to just discuss this subject using only the Bible. The reason I keep doing it is because none of you have offered anything from the Bible...... ....For your "proof" that Christ COULD HAVE sinned, fallen & ceased to exist forever as a result. ....Not one of you have offered anything from the Bible that God risked the eternal loss of His Son. ....By allowing His Son to Incarnate. Now if Christ, prior to the Incarnation, is NOT Diety in the ultimate sense you have nothing to worry about.... ...However if He was DIETY prior to the incarnation you have a rather large issue to contend with. BECAUSE: Ellen White said it was impossible for Diety to sink and die..... ...YET ELlen affirmed Christ staked his "ETERNAL EXISTENCE" by agreeing to come to earth and slog it out with Lucifer! ...Deal with it.
Overaged Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 I think your real problem is just with Ellen White then; not the Bible. You have been presented with some Bible texts; but you don't seem to like them. Ellen White's statements are quite balanced on the scriptures, and what they say re the deity. If you don't see it that way; that's OK. Everyone needs to look into her ministry and writings for themselves. I am glad to see you doing this. Disagreeing is fine. And you are doing a great job of trying to just address issues and ideas, rather than getting personal and attacking people. May God continue to bless you in your searching, and in your time with us on this forum is my prayer. "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
ClubV12 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 If you had two oars in the boat, the bible AND Ellen White, it's obvious you'll go in circles if you use only one. Still, some will go in circles even using BOTH oars, because they got no rudder for a guide. Mary's egg? God's belly button? Puhlease,,, the boat has capsized!
miz3 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Sonny, I do agree with you on the "gospel". Jesus Christ was the Second Adam. As such Jesus Christ did not have a "fallen nature" or as Paul puts it a "sinful nature". Jesus Christ's humanity had no bent toward sin. There was nothing in Jesus Christ that pushed him to sin. You and I are different. We have a "sinful nature". We have a bent toward sin. We are pushed by that "sinful nature" all the time to sin. Jesus Christ was NOT a slave to anything. You and I are slaves to the "sinful nature". Jesus Christ came to live, die, and be resurrected so that you and I could be free from the "sinful nature". This what Paul is so insistent about in the Book of Romans. Where I certainly agree with you about is that we are Justified by Jesus Christ apart from anything about us. We sinful humans were Justified by Jesus Christ apart from anything we did. This Justification is an outright Gift of God through Jesus Christ's birth, life, death, and resurrection.
miz3 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 It was also impossible for Jesus Christ to have sinned. I have said before if Christ could have sinned and thus, all of Christ (Divinity and humanity) had died then God's promises are no better than our human promises. This is not the picture of God (as I have already shown) that is found in the Bible. All of God's Promises are lock sure cinch to be kept. This why we can have Faith in Jesus Christ and in God. Unfortunately we get mixed up with the Bible Principles (clearly stated) because we try and fit them into the "uninspired" parts of Ellen White's writings. Not all of Ellen White is "uninspired" she does have parts of her writings that are clearly sent from God. I think this attempt to meld the "uninspired" parts of Ellen White with the Bible Principles is what makes SDA in general so mixed up and so incoherent in Biblical interpretation. The fact that sooo much of the "Conflict Series" (including Desire of Ages) was copied demonstrates that these are not "inspired parts". I believe Ellen White genuinely believed these copyings to be true and well stated which is why she used them. However these writings did NOT come direct from God. The same can be said for the Great Controversy. These copyings fit Ellen Whites personal view of truth but were NOT direct messages from God. I believe in these writings we are seeing Ellen Whites personal view of the world at that time. In fact such a worldview from Ellen White was quite the common worldview of most of Protestantism. This is true for both the writings in Desire of Ages and Great Controversy. As such these writings are filled with both truth and error because they reflect the personal opinions of her humanity. This should not be shocking because Academics, Theologians, Pastors, Church Leaders, etc. do this all the time. Gustave has done an excellent job of pointing out such inconsistencies. The "Deification" of Ellen White in the long ago of SDA history (I think especially after her death) has done more damage to Ellen White as a true Prophet of God than all the devils in hell. Certainly part of the motivation for the Church Leaders to do this is to gain power for themselves and to control the "laity" as well as to control Doctrine. We are paying a huge price today for those who set this course of Adventism in the long ago. The penalties can only get worse the longer we do not address honestly this problem. Shutting people up and shouting them down as heretics against Ellen White and SDAism is NOT confronting the problem honestly.
ClubV12 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 "However these writings did NOT come direct from God." Pffft, you could say the same thing for ANY bible author. A prophet writes down what he/she saw, in their own words. Paul was no different. When Ellen White is directly qouting what an angel told her, she makes that clear. When she writes about things she saw, she says, "I was shown". Mostly, just like Paul, Timothy, Mark, David, she writes out what was revealed to her. I don't have a problem with her borrowing phrases and whole passages from some other author, that said something in an eloguent way. I do that myself sometimes, we all do. The difference is when Ellen White does it, she KNOWS it's true from what has been revealed to her. Me? Mostly when I do it, it sounds pretty good, might even be true, it's not like I have a "revelation" on the subject! No one has "Deified" Ellen White, no one worships her. That is a flat out lie when you say that, and you say it a lot. I'm just addressing the problem "honestly".
Sonny Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 I do agree with you on the "gospel". Jesus Christ was the Second Adam. As such Jesus Christ did not have a "fallen nature" or as Paul puts it a "sinful nature".
miz3 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Jesus Christ did not suffer utter anguish until the Cross. The reason for this utter anguish on the Cross was because God the Father was making Jesus Christ "sin for all of us". As sin for all of us Jesus Christ became the outcast of the Father which is why Christ uttered "why have you forsaken me". No where else while Jesus Christ was on earth did He feel this "forsakenness" from God the Father. It was a unique experience in the Life of Jesus Christ. Read the Scripture, because this is why the only time Jesus Christ became "sin for us" was on the Cross. No where else.
miz3 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 I've been over this point. Jesus is God. He has a sinless nature, but at the incarnation God through the Spirit combined Christ's Divinity with OUR fallen humanity, indwelt with sin, so as to legally save the human race. It wasn't His nature - it was ours. This part is simply not Biblical!
miz3 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 No, He didn't respond to sin, but His mind was tempted with our bent-to-self. Otherwise He couldn't have tempted. Again, simply not Biblical. Quoting the Hebrews text is not good enough. Being tempted in all points as we are does not require one to have a sinful nature. You can be tempted in all those same points but your nature can still be pure (sinless nature) as opposed to our sullied nature.
miz3 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Never said He was. At the incarnation the Son of Man's mind was made spiritually alive. So His mind was never controlled by the nature that He assumed through Mary. The Bible says nothing about Mary contributing any part of her sinful make up to Jesus Christ and His sinless make up.
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